Small Scale Mining vs. Recreational Mining Please Help!!!

[Bluefrontside]

Looking for some solid input here.... I am a board member of our local gold prospecting club and there have been some serious debate about to refer to our activities as Small Scale Mining or Recreational Prospecting. The topic appears to be solely a legal issue. Our membership is somewhat divided on the topic. Specifically, the debate is around governmental agency jurisdiction.

If we call ourselves Recreational Prospecting the claim is we fall under the control of Recreational Agencies that can limit our access and possible take our equipment on the spot.

The other point is if we call our activities Small Scale Mining we are protected under Mining Rights act of 1872 (I think I have that correct if not let me know).

I am interested in people real experiences, there are lots of opinions on this those are good to hear too. We have some contacts with Public Lands for the People and are waiting for info. I am also think it might be good to speak with a lawyer.

Thanks.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

There is no such thing as recreational mining. There is such a thing as recreational prospecting.

Recreational prospecting takes place, by permit, in recreational areas like Cache Creek, Colorado and Whiskeytown, California. Those recreational areas are not open to location (claims).

If your club has claims you will want to avoid any hint that you hold those claims for any reason but to discover and mine valuable minerals. Holding a claim for recreation, resale, camping, fishing or any other reason voids the claim.

It's not the words that sink you it's the intent. Under the mining acts there is no exception to the law that you must hold the claim with the intent to discover valuable minerals. Those who have the intent to prospect or mine as recreation have no right to the minerals found on the public lands.

If your club holds private lands they can prospect or mine with any intent they wish. The public lands containing valuable minerals are only open for those who intend to take part in the mineral grant. The mineral grant does not include recreation.

I hope that helps. If you need copies of the laws that restrict claim uses to only those incident to exploration and mining I can help you find them.

Heavy Pans

 

[Bluefrontside]

Thank you. Clay Diggins. Great information. So it sounds pretty clear our club which has claims here in North Idaho needs to stay away from describing our activities as Recreational Prospecting (thanks for the correction). Our claims are on public lands, BLM and National Forest that are open for new claims.

Also, I think the one of the points that really lines up to our group right now is that mineral grant does not include recreation. This has been the point of some of our members. But it has been getting mixed in to the fear that the Forest Service or Law Enforcement will or can seize all your mining equipment if you use the term recreation. I am trying to separate the issue and get to the best/real information.

I would appreciate any copies of the laws that you could send my way, state or federal and any other thoughts you might have.

Thank you.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Any time you have a claim you are at a minimum a small scale miner.

As far as a "Club Claim" goes, someone has to in the end be the actual claim holder(s). If you say you're "recreational" this could actually void the claim. Instead, members should say they're mining with permission of the claim holder and have a letter from the person(s) whose name(s) are on the filing stating that such and such group or person, if you want to do them individually, has permission to work such and such claim. This protects the claim holder, the club members and avoids that nasty "R" word. Is it a little bit of a hassle? Yes it is. But it could prove to be well worth the little bit of effort if it protects the group and the claim.

 

[winners58]

If you are on a club claim you are an agent of the owner, and have the same rights as the owner.
I like the term Independent miner. I own claims I’m a small scale miner but I also go to rivers that are open or classified as navigable,
as an independent miner I have the right to look for Gold which is valuable under various other laws and acts like the rivers and harbors act,
commerce clause (article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution) even the wild and scenic rivers act says I can go and look for gold but cant claim valuable minerals in sections designated as wild. Even though I term myself an independent miner I still have the right to recreation and have access to public areas under the Public Trust Doctrine.

 

[Bluefrontside]

Thanks to all really great stuff.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Thank you. Clay Diggins. Great information. So it sounds pretty clear our club which has claims here in North Idaho needs to stay away from describing our activities as Recreational Prospecting (thanks for the correction). Our claims are on public lands, BLM and National Forest that are open for new claims.

Also, I think the one of the points that really lines up to our group right now is that mineral grant does not include recreation. This has been the point of some of our members. But it has been getting mixed in to the fear that the Forest Service or Law Enforcement will or can seize all your mining equipment if you use the term recreation. I am trying to separate the issue and get to the best/real information.

I would appreciate any copies of the laws that you could send my way, state or federal and any other thoughts you might have.

Thank you.

The distinction is in intent and the acts that indicate that intent. The use of "recreational" in your language is not a direct indicator of your intent. I think there has been entirely too much attention given to the word "recreational" and not enough attention to the strength of the mining acts in overcoming words. The Forest Service agrees with me and made the distinction clear in the Federal Register when they made the ruling regarding Clarification for the Appropriate Use of a Criminal or a Civil Citation To Enforce Mineral Regulations in 2008.

From the Federal Register:

Under the United States mining laws, United States citizens may enter such reserved NFS lands to prospect or explore for and remove valuable deposits of certain minerals referred to as locatable minerals. However, no distinction between persons conducting locatable mineral operations primarily for “recreational” versus “commercial” purposes nor a difference between the requirements applicable to operations conducted for these purposes is recognized by the United States mining laws, the Organic Administration Act, 36 CFR part 228, subpart A or 36 CFR part 261, subpart A. Thus, to the extent that individuals or members of mining clubs are prospecting for or mining valuable deposits of locatable minerals, and making use of or occupying Forest Service lands for functions, work or activities which are reasonably incidental to such prospecting and mining, it does not matter whether those operations are described as “recreational” or “commercial.”

One thing which often is unique insofar as functions, work, or activities are proposed by individuals, members of mining clubs, or mining clubs themselves whose interest in locatable mineral operations is primarily recreational, is that they far exceed the scope of the United States mining laws. Such functions, work, or activities that are not authorized by the United States mining laws include educational seminars, treasure hunts, and use of mining claims as sites for hunting camps or summer homes. Accordingly, a major impetus for this rulemaking culminating in the final rule being adopted is to prohibit operations conducted under the color of the mining laws that clearly are not within the scope of bona fide operations consistent with the United States mining laws.

So it's not the word that sinks you - it's the act. Keep your club activities incidental to mining and you should be fine no matter what you call it.

Heavy Pans

 

[Bluefrontside]

Thanks

 

[russau]

Clay gives some very good advice (as usual), I only wish more clubs / people would listen and adhear to it! it would make more things EZer on those that want to help save / protect our rights! some of the bigger club members seem to not want to be told / advised and end up doing whatever they want and this attitude ends up messing up the works and confusing those that really don't do their own homework on these issues!

 

[goldog]

I like that Clay. "...Overcoming words..." Reread that passage everyone. That is the basis of our rights whether a dollar a day or a thousand ozs.

Seems the conversation needs to about what activities are acceptable for a club or better described as a mining association.

The non mining activities are listed there for you. Keep them separate.

 

[solarsmith]

im in Colorado. we do have a recreational mining rule. which limits your surface disturbance to 1600 sq ft no more than 2 such disturbances per 5 acre claim.
i did call to get a permit for my mine on private property a 5 acre mine site patented (private) called the division of minerals and oil and was told they they would not give me a permit because I was to small. so as I dig im very careful to revegitate as I go and stay under the 1600 sq ft limit. and from arial photos Im some what successful bryan In Denver Colorado

 

[KevinInColorado]

im in Colorado. we do have a recreational mining rule. which limits your surface disturbance to 1600 sq ft no more than 2 such disturbances per 5 acre claim.
i did call to get a permit for my mine on private property a 5 acre mine site patented (private) called the division of minerals and oil and was told they they would not give me a permit because I was to small. so as I dig im very careful to revegitate as I go and stay under the 1600 sq ft limit. and from arial photos Im some what successful bryan In Denver Colorado

Hi Bryan, I'd love to see the law or regulation you refer to. My understanding is this thing you are doing is not "recreational" it's small scale, sometimes called incidental by the courts. True recreational would be when you were the guest of a landowner (often a local government owning an open space park) who allowed a limited recreational activity we call prospecting. In Colorado this recreational access is often limited to manual and electric motors only- by the city/county recreational rules which ONLY apply on land they directly own/control.