Feds sued for blocking thousands of recreational

[2cmorau]

Releases|3-18-15 Feds sued for blocking thousands of recreational routes in Plumas National Forest - Pacific Legal Foundation

 

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[kayakpat]

I hear this abouts rights all the time, fact is is you do not own it you have no rights, and the owner has the right to change the rules whenever they want. Federal land is public, owned by all and administered by appointment by elected officials. The public includes, ATV riders, 4 wheel riders, mountain climbers, miners, fishermen, tree huggers, flower watchers hunters, birdwatchers, etc not to mention logging companies, and other enterprises, wealthy private interest, states ,countys. In fact all are PUBLIC all wanting the land for their own uses, and all fighting for their ideas of use, we are lucky the Feds set aside land for public use, as many want to sell it off and privatize it. in which case No Tresspassing signs will go up like in the East. I believe there is a need for management and someone to organize the rules to accomidate as many of the public as they can for use, with out destroying it;So just becareful what you wish for, you might just get it and it may be not to your liking

 

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[kayakpat]

I wonder what would happen if 4 wheelers and ATV riders or rocket launchers association or whatever wanted to ride trails thru the public land that Bundy grazes his cattle on, with out paying his due. I will bet he would try to run you off. That is all of our lands not his

 

[russau]

and all of this cr*p comes about with NO ACCOUNTABILTY to these gubermint agencys for their shoveing their green agenda 21 down our throats AGAINST our Constitution! and theyre STILL there in office grining and filling their pockets with "our tax dollars"! and loving every minute of it! if it isn't in " their" best interest , SUE all those opposed to it! and we sit here and they get voted back into office!??

 

[kayakpat]

Lack of Accountability, a lot of that has been going around in the private sector also , especially for those that can afford it.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I understand and agree with you on most of your points about timber management and road closures.

I doubt we could have a meeting of the minds on biomass exportation from stressed environments but that's the least of the forest management problems for the moment. It will come back to haunt those supposed "managers" in the future but for now they need to thin and back off from active management practices from the past.

You write with some authority, knowledge and an obvious passion. Those are all good things. Please try to stay current on the facts or you will get slaughtered on the public stage. A good spokesman understands the subject intimately and doesn't speak to things they aren't prepared to back up with facts.

Try to stick to one subject at a time and always be prepared to explain again and again in detail.

Please don't take the following as criticism, we need thoughtful well spoken people like you if we are going to create a decent future. These notes are to help you understand where you will be distracted from your goals.

_________________

Any BLM wilderness study areas from the 90's have expired or have been made wilderness by Congress. The BLM's ability to create new wilderness study areas expired in 1993. By 2013 all the study areas that weren't already designated wilderness by Congress ceased to be designated BLM wilderness study areas.

_________________

The only Lost Burro Mine I know of is in California. You won't have much luck opening that one since it's in Death Valley National Park. Before it was a National Park it was a wilderness and a National Monument - since 1933. There is no Lost Burro Mine claim listed there or anywhere else in Arizona.

You will have to be clearer about your complaint. There is no commonly available public information to lead a reader to understand what your complaint about the Lost Burro Mine is. Please provide some verifiable facts.

_________________

The Sage Grouse nonsense is over, it's time to move on, we won that one.

ALL 14 conservation areas have been withdrawn, the courts have shut most of them down and the BLM have officially abandoned the others now.

The Sage Grouse will not be listed or protected:


_________________

I don't know what "control would be transferred" there is no law on the books or proposed that would transfer the Public Lands to the States.

As I've already pointed out the State Trust Lands in Arizona are not the property of and are not controlled by the State of Arizona. If that isn't clear to you in Title 37 or the statutes you can read Article X of the organic Constitution of Arizona State or the 1912 Enabling Act. The Trust Lands are external to the State.

How anybody would think it was a good idea to transfer the Public Lands to a private trust is beyond me. Luckily there is no such proposal on the horizon. Unless you count the one made up article circulating endlessly through the internet.

_________________

Keep up the postings but please keep us informed on the details. Let us know what you want us to be informed about before you move on to a new subject. Check your sources. I do my own research when I hear of others misdeeds or complaints. Help me and your readers to get to the facts ourselves.

Thanks for your efforts Mad Machinist, keep up your studies and your passion.

Heavy Pans

Clay,

Not a problem. Some days it is impossible to keep up with everything. Especially since I don't get paid to do what I do.

 

[Mad Machinist]

You done already missed that train if you ride in the Phoenix, Prescott, or Flagstaff areas. We (single track riders) already BTDT several years ago with the Prescott, Coconino, and Tonto forests here in AZ. Due to our input with the Feds, nothing much really changed with our single track trails and the travel management plans for most of the areas we dirt bikers like to ride. In fact we've even been building new trails with the Fed's (actually our) money and their full approval. Now, if you want to talk about the "squid" areas. Yes, there were many trails that were closed (or will be closed) just because they were redundant and mostly all looped back into each other. I have no qualms with those closures as the land was getting pretty well beat up in those areas. I do believe in some conservation.

BTW... if you're a "bona-fide" prospector/miner, then any road or trail closures are a non-issue anyways. You just need to know your rights.

Conservation can be a good thing, if it is done correctly. If someone tried to start a mining or other proposal that would effect the sky islands, well, I'd be one of the first ones in line to stop it.

I do know my rights as a prospector/miner. And I have a rather nasty attorney that backs them up.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I hear this abouts rights all the time, fact is is you do not own it you have no rights, and the owner has the right to change the rules whenever they want. Federal land is public, owned by all and administered by appointment by elected officials. The public includes, ATV riders, 4 wheel riders, mountain climbers, miners, fishermen, tree huggers, flower watchers hunters, birdwatchers, etc not to mention logging companies, and other enterprises, wealthy private interest, states ,countys. In fact all are PUBLIC all wanting the land for their own uses, and all fighting for their ideas of use, we are lucky the Feds set aside land for public use, as many want to sell it off and privatize it. in which case No Tresspassing signs will go up like in the East. I believe there is a need for management and someone to organize the rules to accomidate as many of the public as they can for use, with out destroying it;So just becareful what you wish for, you might just get it and it may be not to your liking

When the changes are based in flat out lies, no they don't need to change the rules, they need to change the management spewing the lies.

One thing I always hear about is "illegally created user routes". Up until recent changes, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING. And referring to them as such is a lie. Cross country travel was LEGAL in all National Forests. This is how most of the "unauthorized" trails were created. Under the past rules nobody had to follow a trail. They could go wherever they wanted and it was legal. So instead of people just running around willy-nilly, they tended to follow a trail. So eventually, the trail was created and people followed it. On page two: http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/final.pdf

So calling these illegal routes is basically a flat out lie intended to build animosity in order to achieve what they want.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I wonder what would happen if 4 wheelers and ATV riders or rocket launchers association or whatever wanted to ride trails thru the public land that Bundy grazes his cattle on, with out paying his due. I will bet he would try to run you off. That is all of our lands not his

Nice try. OHV's are not allowed there due to it being declared critical habitat for the desert tortoise, which are not killing them off and neither are the cattle.

USGS Release: Scientists Estimate Risk of Raven Predation on Desert Tortoises in the Western Mojave Desert (9/29/2003)
USGS Release: Scientists Estimate Risk of Raven Predation on Desert Tortoises in the Western Mojave Desert (9/29/2003)

And here I thought they were supposed to use the best science available to make decisions.

 

[kayakpat]

no matter, no one owns it, it is held for the public (everybody) while trying to manage it for everybody's best use. Constitutionally elected official appoint management for these area as ideas are proposed by individuals and groups and each try to convince that they have the best science, and everybody has the option to address these ideas either thru the courts and hearings or ultimately elections. It seems there is no way possible to please everybody, and some are mad that in the past, they really did not care about what happened with the land, but times change, explosion in populations and activities that were not available before are now popular. Everything has problems and nothing is perfect, but I am sure glad there is still land left for me and my children to visit and use.

 

[Mad Machinist]

no matter, no one owns it, it is held for the public (everybody) while trying to manage it for everybody's best use. Constitutionally elected official appoint management for these area as ideas are proposed by individuals and groups and each try to convince that they have the best science, and everybody has the option to address these ideas either thru the courts and hearings or ultimately elections. It seems there is no way possible to please everybody, and some are mad that in the past, they really did not care about what happened with the land, but times change, explosion in populations and activities that were not available before are now popular. Everything has problems and nothing is perfect, but I am sure glad there is still land left for me and my children to visit and use.
However Go where Bundy grazes his cows and do what you want, see what happens to you or me on OUR public lands. They even had the nerve to shutdown and harass people on the highway trying to travel thru on the public highway during that circus, talk about real overreach, and constitutional violations and tyranny by self appointed dictators of authority. Naw I would rather settle disputes in court or public opinion.

So you want these people managing OUR land?

Well, if I did what they have done and are doing, I WOULD BE PUT IN JAIL FOR THE NEXT 25 YEARS FOR CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.

This refers to the Mexican Gray Wolf that they want to use to further shut off access based on the premise that human interference is really bad for them. I got this straight from people who were involved in this.

When you take an apex predator and raise it in pens while feeding it roadkill and have DOG FOOD dispensers on the side of the cage to feed them while no one is there on the weekends, you DO NOT teach that animal to hunt in the natural world. You teach it to be a scavenger. And the "experts" claim that this is effective for reintroductions? And "trapping" the wolves with "leg hold" traps that are illegal for everyone else to use in order to "study" how they are doing?

It's been 20 years since the reintroduction of the Mexican Gray Wolf here and they have yet to establish a "sustainable population"? And the solution is to make it's territory bigger and release the wolves wherever the "experts" deem suitable?

There was another species that was reintroduced here that is doing extremely well. Can you guess what it is? It was reintroduced and people got the hell out of it's way.

And these are the people YOU want making decisions on what is "best practice"?

The only thing these people should managing is a cellblock at Ft. Leavenworth.

 

[Mad Machinist]

So how much more money needs to be wasted in order to "save" these wolves that are now so inbred, that their chances of survival are somewhere between nil and none? How much more land needs to be placed "off limits" to all but a few?

So all current MGW here are descended from these seven? Study Shows What Mexican Gray Wolves Need to Survive - Defenders Blog

Well here is what they face: Inbred wolves struggle, moose proliferate at Isle Royale National Park -- ScienceDaily


Like I said before, are these the people we want managing our land? These people are supposed to be educated scientists and they couldn't see the risks of inbreeding?

And these people say miners, prospectors, four wheelers, loggers, etc. are destroying the environment? Not much for credibility are they?

 

[kayakpat]

everybody has their pet boogieman to blame, no matter what they do their will always be people that complain and don't like the way they do things. I know of no one that has a solution that everybody will agree on.

 

[GoldpannerDave]

everybody has their pet boogieman to blame, no matter what they do their will always be people that complain and don't like the way they do things. I know of no one that has a solution that everybody will agree on.

kayakpat, What you say is true; the problem is that some blame is deserved and some not (miners are not really the problem, for example for most all the things radical environmentalists say about them). As long as we allow lies to be told unchallenged, we will never fix the problem.

 

[Mad Machinist]

everybody has their pet boogieman to blame, no matter what they do their will always be people that complain and don't like the way they do things. I know of no one that has a solution that everybody will agree on.

Still falling back on the blame game? Can't handle the truth?

Yea, I have a problem with the way things are run. Here we are wasting money on a problem that has a very minimal chance of success. But this failure WILL NOT be blamed on the fact that the wolves are inbred. It WILL be blamed on everything but that, things like miners, prospectors, hunters, OHV users, and others like that.

So answer me this, if all the wolves in captivity are descended from the original 7 that were left, how is releasing them going to help, when their genes are already in the pool? How is this going to prevent inbreeding and the subsequent extinction of the MGF through genetic malformation?

So tell me, how is locking people out of large areas going to help the fact that the wolves are inbred and have very little chance of survival?

Oh and by the way, the species that was reintroduced here and is doing well is the common elk.

 

[spaghettigold]

Pat.what is the difference if your standing in front of signs of"no trespassing.or no prospecting,mushroom collecting,camping ,motorized driving etc you name it, if its from a privat property owner or from a agency?

 

[kayakpat]

Sorry mad machinist Quote "Still falling back on the blame game? Can't handle the truth?" reread the post you are the one specific blaming and you always blame the same answer no matter what the problems are, according to you no one else causes problems. I spoke the truth you echo idealogy

 

[Mad Machinist]

Sorry, didn't get the memo where ideology became the truth, and the truth became ideology.

You want ideology, here ya go: http://www.westgov.org/images/dmdocuments/Recreation Case Studies.pdf Pay special attention to number 28 and what was said. It went from ground zero for resource destruction and now is one of the premier OHV success stories in the country. Yet they have to fight to keep it every day because an eco group wants to spend a whole bunch of money to "restore" it to wilderness.

Let's take a look at the Rubicon Trail. After the OHV groups spent a whole lot of money to basically rebuild the trail end to end, complete with bathrooms and a bridge across a creek, they are left fighting a "critical habitat" designation even though the mountain yellow legged frog doesn't even live there. Sound science was IGNORED that stated that removal of trout from the high country lakes would allow the population to return to normal rather quickly. And by the way, those trout were put there back in the day by none other than the Sierra Club.

Ideology? Lets talk about the feds closing down access due to not having the money to maintain the roads in the forest. Ya see this is how it works. The eco groups sue and when they win, they recover their their attorney fees through the Equal Access to Justice Act. Equal Access to Justice Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that money comes from the "offending" agencies budget. In other words, if you sue your local BLM or USFS unit and win, the "recovered" money come from their budget, which means that there is less money to maintain trails, campgrounds, and other facilities. So they get closed and you have less access. So who is to "blame" for reduced access?

And since miners are required to put up a bond to restore the mined area to the pre-mined condition, what is the problem with mining besides ideology? Mining Companies Receive Environmental Awards | Heartlander Magazine

3 W.Va. sites receive coal mining reclamation awards - Beckley Register-Herald: Money


We KNOW who the problems are and it isn't us?

 

[Mad Machinist]

You want ideology?

Let me tell you about the fight I am in here with the USFS.

They claim me driving my Jeep through the river here is killing the loach minnow. They tell me that mining here is killing the minnow. They tell me that people camping along the river here is killing the minnow. Ok let's take a SERIOUS look at that.

Since the loach minnow covers a great deal of Arizona, and many of the same things are claimed all over Arizona, we'll look at all of it. OHV use has been removed or seriously curtailed around many of the rivers and streams occupied by the loach. Yet they haven't recovered.

Mining is slowly dying put here in Arizona, especially the "polluting" little guy. Yet the loach isn't recovering.

More and more people are going elsewhere due to harassment they receive from the USFS and from others when camping along the rivers. Yet the loach minnow isn't recovering.

So if these things are being removed and the loach minnow isn't recovering, then obviously they were NOT the problem.

Now let's take a look at the problems.

The first one is invasive species. The biggest one is Orconectes Virilis or the northern crayfish to some one like you. They are a benthic (bottom dwelling) organism like the loach. The loach lays it eggs under rocks in little cavities on the stream bottom. The crayfish lives under in little cavities on the stream bottom. The crayfish is also an opportunistic omnivore, meaning it will eat anything it can get it's claws on. So I wonder what happens when the crayfish crawls under a rock and finds the loach eggs. Hmmmm, let me think about that for a minute.

The second one is Pylodictis Ovilaris or the flathead catfish to you. Now the interesting thing about this fish is even though it is a catfish it is piscivorous, i.e. fish eating. It survives by eating other fish. Now anywhere this catfish has been introduced outside it natural range, it has devastated the local aquatic life. Wonder what happens when minnows get close? Hmmm, let me think about that for a minute.

Now I am rather familiar with both of these species as they are native to where I grew up back in Western PA and have spent 33+ years fishing for and eating them. I've watched crayfish catch and eat many minnows and have cut open more than a few flatheads to see what they eat to get better at catching them.

Now here is a small list of what I have found it a flatheads stomach: A full grown mallard duck, birds, frogs, other catfish and fish, a turtle, a small dog, a squirrel, multiple snakes, and these are just the more important ones.

Hell, when we fished the Mon, the Ohio, and the Allegheny, we rigged up 12" rainbow trout as bait.


Now introduce these two things into a "predator free" environment and all hell breaks loose.

Yet, the people who remove and eat theses two species here are the ones blamed for the decline of the loach. Those people are the ones who have access removed based on a "perceived" impact that actually has no basis in fact. Yet the people can prove what is impacting the loach and they are ignored based on what? It can't be science as there is no basis. So we are left with ideology and emotion.

The claim is also that they are going to poison the river with rotenone and remove the invasive species. Ok, let's look a that. One big problem there. Rotenone IS NOT effective against crayfish and has limited effectiveness against flatheads. So they will still be there to cause problems. Yet people are told they are the problem and access needs to be removed.

So if science CANNOT back up the current plan to remove access, then what are we left with besides ideology?

 

[Mad Machinist]

So tell me pat, if science supports the removal of crayfish to save the loach and other species, why would you want to remove access and make this as difficult as possible.



By the way, this gets bigger every year and more crayfish are removed every year.

 

[kayakpat]

I am not going to argue with you, Those are public lands and politics are always involved, in my opinion the more different groups lobbying for their interest the better. I believe the BLM and USFS are just taking marching orders from their superiors, which is all guided by politics, I believe in professional educated scientist who study the enviorment and other groups who want to use the land for their personal favorite use. You claim you are a miner who wants to use public lands, just because your influence does not out vote or override the other groups interest and they are a problem, your post show your biases, you want to do for your own best interest not the rest of the public who have just as much right to public land as you. you haven't won your case so automatically, you say government bad, BLM bad, USFS bad, EPA bad etc and that is mostly what you post a agenda. I am heading out west for a few years to prospect too, and I will have to deal with with the different rules and regulations, but I am also glad the land has been saved and open so I can use it for all my other varied interest like hunting, fishing, ATV riding and hiking and all the things available, unlike in the east. So if you lived in West pa you saw the devastation and problems and lack of places to go, and lack of careful oversight for the interest of the public,, all these interest are only looking out for their special private good, Those government groups of care takers are only trying to enforce the results of due process and the courts and legislation, and what they are ordered to do by authorities in charge. Or they should