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  1. #16
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    fowledup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwasher View Post
    Hey Foweled up. Did you mean that California has the most mercury contaminated waterways, or the most contaminated in general? The 50 Most Polluted Rivers in the Country | EWG

    California Coastkeeper Alliance | Clean, Abundant Water | Severely Polluted Waters
    Interesting interactive map.... Note that you can see the pollution(what they say is polluted) increases in urban areas...DUH!!!!! and places frequented by the most tourists....As many of us know when you get in the rural areas where the local population has been the steward for some time now the waters are far less polluted.(or not Polluted)
    I say less polluted because according to these groups 83% of the river course studied is polluted..(no scale easily determined) and 96%!!!!!!!!!! of lakes.

    I grew up in southern California. I lived close to a lake called Lake Perris. It was the closest easiest to access lake for millions of people. It ended up closed several times a year from people getting sick and having gnarly rashes show up. I learned young that 98% of people in the cities could care less about how they kept their own places they played... They come wait in line pay to enter, leave their trash and go home.....and they bring that attitude when they go camping and boating in the hills.
    Why on earth would we let people in the cities tell us how to take care of our natural places is way beyond me.........
    I meant most polluted with Mercury, but apparently we are champions with the other toxins and pollutants as well!
    Last edited by fowledup; May 31, 2015 at 04:17 PM.
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  2. #17
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    fowledup

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    Caribou369--"It's not so much about fatality from mercury, but about impacts to quality of life. A truck can break both someone's legs and they may not die, but their quality of life is going to be severely impacted.

    My question is more, given the body of evidence that mercury in all forms is toxic to one degree or another, why is so much effort being exerted on this forum to argue otherwise??

    *mic drop*"
    Mic drop? Really? We have a WINNER!

    No one is saying Mercury in any form is not dangerous or hamrful. MERCURY IS A HARMFUL TOXIC SUBSTANCE AND ESPECIALLY SO WHEN CONVERTED TO MONOMETHYLMERCURY, now will you please let that one go? You are indeed trained well, you picked up on the one sterotype you folks have out of all the other info, which is that we don't think Merc is a problem and missed the real point and anything of substance entirely. My main point as stated earlier is - If it is the dire straits, code red, help stat, be all end all problem your side would have us believe, than why did you guys write the legislation and lobby for banning and criminalizing the absolute best management practice there is for Mercury clean up? Along with that why keep fighting to obliterate and remove the largest, most experienced, best equipped, most qualified, and dare I say cheapest workforce there is? If we are to believe your teams war cries, and call to arms (our checkbooks) than there is more than enough mercury in need of remediation by all, not just an elite incompetent clueless few who have friends in high places. LET THE DOGMA GO and learn for yourself. Hopefully you will one day see that we miners can actually do, and will do for free what your buddies are getting paid to do but can't seem to get their collective s--t together to actually do it, which is FIX THE PROBLEM!
    To complete your truck analogy if it were a true representation or example about whats going on with the Mercury issue you would have added that the truck is now outlawed and illegal!
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  3. #18
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    Fowled up, I have to commend you on your stamina and patience in tying to explain this topic. There are are none so blind as he who will not see. G/L
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  4. #19
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    fowledup

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    Here is my analogy, I think it's a bit more accurate than the truck;

    A house is on fire (mercury problem), property will be list and people may get hurt.
    As may happen the police (the Sierra fund) arrive before the fire department (miners, specifically suction dredge operators).
    The police see the fire, know what the problem is, recognize the need to extinguish the fire before it gets out of hand and spread to the neighboring homes.
    However in this analogy like our real life saga, the police call the 911 dispatch (state government) and tell the dispatcher to cancel the fire dept. "Cuz we got this!"
    Aufisher likes this.
    Folks may not remember the words of what you said but they dang sure will remember how you made them feel!

  5. #20
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    Wow fowledup, I wonder where you're getting the idea that I'm on one side or another. I do not write any legislation whatsoever, nor am I a lobbyist for any group, and am an avid treasure hunter just like all the rest. Just trying to get the facts straight. Fact is, I would love to see a solution put in the hands of all the dredgers, sluicers, and highbankers out there which would remove methylmercury from water. If you want to get something done on a massive scale, the best thing to do it put it in the hands of those who are willing, able, and motivate to do so. But I get mighty riled up when I see other posters out and out commenting that Mercury is not toxic, would you feed it to your kids? Drink it yourself?

    And now can we kindly get back to friendly chats about treasure hunting? K thanks.
    - TANSTAAFL -
    The map is not the territory.
    If we do not act, we are acted upon.

  6. #21
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    May 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by fowledup View Post
    Caribou369--"It's not so much about fatality from mercury, but about impacts to quality of life. A truck can break both someone's legs and they may not die, but their quality of life is going to be severely impacted.

    My question is more, given the body of evidence that mercury in all forms is toxic to one degree or another, why is so much effort being exerted on this forum to argue otherwise??

    *mic drop*"
    Mic drop? Really? We have a WINNER!

    No one is saying Mercury in any form is not dangerous or hamrful. MERCURY IS A HARMFUL TOXIC SUBSTANCE AND ESPECIALLY SO WHEN CONVERTED TO MONOMETHYLMERCURY, now will you please let that one go? You are indeed trained well, you picked up on the one sterotype you folks have out of all the other info, which is that we don't think Merc is a problem and missed the real point and anything of substance entirely. My main point as stated earlier is - If it is the dire straits, code red, help stat, be all end all problem your side would have us believe, than why did you guys write the legislation and lobby for banning and criminalizing the absolute best management practice there is for Mercury clean up? Along with that why keep fighting to obliterate and remove the largest, most experienced, best equipped, most qualified, and dare I say cheapest workforce there is? If we are to believe your teams war cries, and call to arms (our checkbooks) than there is more than enough mercury in need of remediation by all, not just an elite incompetent clueless few who have friends in high places. LET THE DOGMA GO and learn for yourself. Hopefully you will one day see that we miners can actually do, and will do for free what your buddies are getting paid to do but can't seem to get their collective s--t together to actually do it, which is FIX THE PROBLEM!
    To complete your truck analogy if it were a true representation or example about whats going on with the Mercury issue you would have added that the truck is now outlawed and illegal!
    Well said.

    Caribou one of the reasons we keep pounding on this is that fact that there is no outbreak of Mercury poisonings....no catastrophe waiting in the wings that we need urgent help with.
    Its simple is there naturally deposited Mercury in the state?...YES

    Is there "Legacy mercury" ? YES

    Is there mercury in fish? Yes

    Is there Mercury coming from the Atmosphere?

    Are there people dying in any number from it? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

    compared to all the other things harming the environment.......considering that there are actually programs in place that allow you to PAY for the permit to pollute.....

    and all dredgers do is remove these heavy metals leaving less in the environment(that wasn't actually hurting anything in the first place) to be distributed en mass by mother nature every so often.....


    Its absurd how easy it is to see these facts ...yet the population is so clueless that they will allow themselves to be taxed....those dollars go into the pockets of liars and now you can even go to a hearing where the real facts by far outweigh the situation professed by some non-profit....the people get up and speak, and still the people on the other side of the desk vote based on influence......not the will of the people.

    So, many side stories are created to pull focus from the real issue.....People will lie to get other peoples money....and if its easy the first time they will try again.
    I will keep doing whatever I can to make it harder.

  7. #22
    Charter Member
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    Period Six Mining and Exploration, LLC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caribou369 View Post
    OK, so, I'm just going to leave a couple things here...if methylmercury isn't toxic, please go and get some purified and drip it on your skin...tell us all what happens.

    https://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19980309.html

    Medscape: Medscape Access

    ATSDR - Toxicological Profile: Mercury

    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp46-c2.pdf



    Also...toxic levels of selenium runoff from old mining sites, and toxic mercury levels in drinking water, are totally different problems.

    It's not so much about fatality from mercury, but about impacts to quality of life. A truck can break both someone's legs and they may not die, but their quality of life is going to be severely impacted.

    My question is more, given the body of evidence that mercury in all forms is toxic to one degree or another, why is so much effort being exerted on this forum to argue otherwise??

    *mic drop*
    So if your told the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth, your gonna believe it?

    If mercury in all forms was toxic, then exactly how did the Native Americans survive in the area? Obviously, if California led in production of mercury, then more than a little was introduced in the ecosystems from natural erosion. And the Native Americans obviously ate the fish in the area to survive. Just look at the whole fight over the salmon in the area and how the Native Americans claim that salmon are critical to their culture and survival.

    And if mercury was so damn toxic to all life, then I should be sitting here drooling on myself while sitting in a wheelchair. Grew up playing with the stuff from broken thermometers. And I still have quite a bit here that I use from time to time.

    As far as dropping "purified" methyl mercury on my skin, not a problem, let me know when you want to buy a ticket here to Arizona and I set it up. I'll even take an equal amount of selenium.

    Like most things anymore, it is easier to "fearmonger" and make money than it is to tell the truth. If people knew and understood the truth, then there is no money to be made.
    Mining is how I make my living. I turn mountains into dust on a daily basis.

  8. #23
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    fowledup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caribou369 View Post
    Wow fowledup, I wonder where you're getting the idea that I'm on one side or another. I do not write any legislation whatsoever, nor am I a lobbyist for any group, and am an avid treasure hunter just like all the rest. Just trying to get the facts straight. Fact is, I would love to see a solution put in the hands of all the dredgers, sluicers, and highbankers out there which would remove methylmercury from water. If you want to get something done on a massive scale, the best thing to do it put it in the hands of those who are willing, able, and motivate to do so. But I get mighty riled up when I see other posters out and out commenting that Mercury is not toxic, would you feed it to your kids? Drink it yourself?

    And now can we kindly get back to friendly chats about treasure hunting? K thanks.
    My mistake and apologies if I've read you wrong, but out of all the info I gave, questions for thought, points for discussion and avenues of research for folks to explore and make up their own mind, your response was typical and text book of those that come on here for the sole purpose of derailing and spreading doubt. The only thing that concerned you and motivated you to respond was a perception you have that all us miners don't think mercury is toxic. By the way since were killing this thread and any meaningful discussion that could have come from it, who are all these posters you speak of claiming Mercury is not a toxin or toxic? I keep looking and can't find any examples. I think you should PM them or start a new thread as I know it wasn't me that said it.

    Yup, you bet, I give up lets get back to those friendly chats about "treasure hunting"! You start what's yer pleasure?
    Last edited by fowledup; May 31, 2015 at 09:36 PM.
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  9. #24
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    Oct 2014
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    Thank you fowledup for your support on methylmercury toxicity. Dredging, sluicing, etc. can remove lumps of elemental mercury, it's true, but they're not set up for filtering and purifying molecular mercury.
    Legislators can't legislate acts of nature like floods, but they can legislate and enforce against things people do. It sucks for anyone who is really serious about recovering heavy metal treasures.
    I'd love to see a win-win for everyone and don't mistake me on this point.

    MadMachinist, I am all for respecting when a discussion about water rights veers into the politics of how much is fair and how much is tantamount to banning an activity. Well and good, we need this kind of debate to keep our democracy strong and make sure it serves the interests of more citizens fairly. but when we start arguing intangibles (can you prove this-ing) over science, things have gone off the deep end. If you're crazy enough to argue mercury toxicity and even put your own life on the line, you might want to get your blood mercury and fat mercury levels tested. Arguing the cautionary principle (if we know this is harmful, it should be avoided) is bat-sh*t crazy talk, man. I wrote out a point by point dissection of your entire post and then decided this is what my take boils down to.

    I can get deep in the weeds if you really want...this you know, would you know more?

    Last but not least...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Machinist View Post
    As far as dropping "purified" methyl mercury on my skin, not a problem, let me know when you want to buy a ticket here to Arizona and I set it up. I'll even take an equal amount of selenium.
    I respect your immense balls, sir, challenge accepted. Let's talk plane tickets, lab work, and medical waiver offline.
    - TANSTAAFL -
    The map is not the territory.
    If we do not act, we are acted upon.

  10. #25
    us
    Oct 2014
    Oregon
    Garrett Carrot Pinpointer
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    55 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by fowledup View Post
    My mistake and apologies if I've read you wrong, but out of all the info I gave, questions for thought, points for discussion and avenues of research for folks to explore and make up their own mind, your response was typical and text book of those that come on here for the sole purpose of derailing and spreading doubt. The only thing that concerned you and motivated you to respond was a perception you have that all us miners don't think mercury is toxic. By the way since were killing this thread and any meaningful discussion that could have come from it, who are all these posters you speak of claiming Mercury is not a toxin or toxic? I keep looking and can't find any examples. I think you should PM them or start a new thread as I know it wasn't me that said it.

    Yup, you bet, I give up lets get back to those friendly chats about "treasure hunting"! You start what's yer pleasure?
    fowledup, I don't like to say a lot about politics when I can't see a clear way forward that makes both sides happy. On one side I see miners with a lot of evidence posted about the good they do removing heavy metals. I see the hoards, I see that people are proud of doing good while enriching their worlds. I don't like that miners are being banned from pursuing their avocation.
    On the other hand I study chemistry sites, textbooks, historical accounts of damage traced to mass mercury poisoning. I see that the effects of mercury are not necessarily fatal, but tragic and debilitating all the same, and that the visible mercury is only the tip of the problem. As I said, I'd love to see a win-win on both sides...wouldn't you??

    For examples, of members claiming mercury is not toxic, please see MadMachinist's posts. ^^

    As for treasure hunting, y'all should know by now I love trying my hand at sniping and panning. I'm hoping to get out and do some sluicing this summer. My friend who just retired to Florida is inviting me out to do some metal detecting on the beaches near his house this fall.

    Cheers,
    - TANSTAAFL -
    The map is not the territory.
    If we do not act, we are acted upon.

  11. #26
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    Dec 2012
    Arizona
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    A lot of mercury in natural settings is blamed on miners, however cinnabar can reduce to native mercury in the oxide zone of the cinnabar ore (near the surface.)
    This mercury then finds its way into the rivers.
    Here is a link to wikipedia with a specimen of ore that has elemental mercury in it:
    File:Mercury-27128.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    This is from a mine in California if you notice. Oregon and California have a lot of mercury mines... hmm
    fowledup and Aufisher like this.
    Tyranny is seldom grandiose or obvious. It comes in small doses generally, like a very subtle poison in your day to day life, administered by those near you who have been brainwashed, who are unknowingly acting as a proxy for the tyrant at the top, far removed. Think about that the next time someone gives you a rational reason to modify or restrict or license your rights, 1st, 2nd or any other. This can only benefit the real tyrant ultimately.

  12. #27
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caribou369 View Post
    Thank you fowledup for your support on methylmercury toxicity. Dredging, sluicing, etc. can remove lumps of elemental mercury, it's true, but they're not set up for filtering and purifying molecular mercury.
    Legislators can't legislate acts of nature like floods, but they can legislate and enforce against things people do. It sucks for anyone who is really serious about recovering heavy metal treasures.
    I'd love to see a win-win for everyone and don't mistake me on this point.

    MadMachinist, I am all for respecting when a discussion about water rights veers into the politics of how much is fair and how much is tantamount to banning an activity. Well and good, we need this kind of debate to keep our democracy strong and make sure it serves the interests of more citizens fairly. but when we start arguing intangibles (can you prove this-ing) over science, things have gone off the deep end. If you're crazy enough to argue mercury toxicity and even put your own life on the line, you might want to get your blood mercury and fat mercury levels tested. Arguing the cautionary principle (if we know this is harmful, it should be avoided) is bat-sh*t crazy talk, man. I wrote out a point by point dissection of your entire post and then decided this is what my take boils down to.

    I can get deep in the weeds if you really want...this you know, would you know more?

    Last but not least...

    I respect your immense balls, sir, challenge accepted. Let's talk plane tickets, lab work, and medical waiver offline.
    Read my signature and you'll understand there is no "immense balls" about this. I have a very solid understanding of this. I know exactly what mercury does to the human body and exactly how to get rid of it.

    As for testing my blood and fat, gets done yearly for work considering some of the stuff I do. And there is zero, zip, zilch, nada.

    Considering that a little over half the mercury emissions a year come from natural sources such as volcanoes, exposure to mercury in one form or another can be guaranteed no matter what is done.

    And considering that methyl mercury is easily absorbed by the skin, where is the ban on boating, water skiing, fishing, swimming, etc. if this stuff is so dangerous?

    The one thing to remember no true scientist will EVER tell you the science is settled. And with that out of the bag now one question needs to be asked:

    Considering mercury's extremely strong attraction to selenium and the subsequent result, does mercury causes mercury poisoning or a selenium deficiency leading to neurological disorders and other things?

    Give me a little bit to find the studies and I'll put them up.
    Aufisher likes this.
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  13. #28
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    fowledup

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    [QUOTE=Caribou369;4548083]Thank you fowledup for your support on methylmercury toxicity. Dredging, sluicing, etc. can remove lumps of elemental mercury, it's true, but they're not set up for filtering and purifying molecular mercury.
    Legislators can't legislate acts of nature like floods, but they can legislate and enforce against things people do. It sucks for anyone who is really serious about recovering heavy metal treasures.
    I'd love to see a win-win for everyone and don't mistake me on this point."

    Couple of points that should be brought into this:
    >If our non mechanical dredges, meaning limited contact, ie. no teeth, blades, choppers or grinders, or mechanical contact of anykind, only water and the smooth bore sides of the hose it travels through have a greater than 95% efficiency rating for capture aren't up to the task. What qualifies a large cutterhead dredge with 80-85% efficiency and is nothing but mechanical contact, it literally "eats" the river or lake bottom, think PacMan as the logical choice?

    >Elemental Mercury is converted to Methylmercury in slow, or better yet stagnant poorly oxygenated water, especially those with thick deep muddy bottoms. Like what is found in the lower reaches. Breaking it up may help ease the movement but is not a part of the biochemical process that occurs in order to convert the one into the other. Fact is even if a drop gets broken into a million little balls by some odd set of circumstances, higher up in the watershed where we dredge it will ball up or sink back into the gravels in a very short distance. It's heavy like gold, it will drop right back out and work it's way to a low or negative pressure point where it will collect and remain unchanged like it has for the last 160 years ago plus when the old miners put it there, or longer if nature naturally deposited it. Odds are we will capture it at some point in the operation as we work the area further. The water higher up in the watershed is faster moving highly oxygentated water with it's gravel bottom are not conducive to the process needed to convert the elemental mercury. Hence the reason it is in an elemental state to begin with when we find it and there are not high levels of methylmercury reported from testing in the areas we dredge. The Sierra Funds plan is to use their "pacman" dredg in an extremely stagnant portion of a reservoir, where they will be chomping it to pieces spreading about what they don't capture and stirring it up across the lake bottom, a rocket scientist isn't needed to figure the subsequent outcome.

    >You brought up equipment. We have proven (albeit on deaf ears) that we can do slight modifications to our sluices to mitigate the problems you state. I can think of three cheap easy mods off the top of my head that I'm certain would bing the efficiency and catch rate to 99%+. The Sierra Fund is not using any special equipment as one might expect, it all comes from the mining industry, google Knelson concentrator. Thats the piece downstream from the cutterhead that seperates the merc and gold out. You can buy them all day long from any mining equipment broker. There is one picture in their pamphlet showing the finishing process using a spiral wheel- not what expect for "new and innovative technology" see'em on Craigslist from time to time for around a $100bucks. It's all smoke and mirrors for show!

    >In order for Mercury to have the debilitating effects eluded to it takes exposure. How are we exposed? With Methylmercury according to the USGS it is almost exclusively through ingestion of fish. Elemental Mercury can be ingested as well but is passed through the body naturally before inflicting irreparable damage. It takes repeated longterm exposure. So this can be easily mitigated through personal common sense decision making of what and how much we eat. Again how does removing dredgers help something that can be so easily mitigated by common sense. For that matter what does paying the Sierra Fund millions of dollars do to actually fix or mitigate the problem?

    >Your correct they can't legislate mother nature although they think they can. But how does any of their legislation based on the facts we've repeatedly presented fix, cure, stop, or help? It's a scam, and a money making scheme. True legislation would get the EPA milkrun programs funded. A trial program that voluntarily took in far more Mercury in a weekend than the Sierra Fund's goal for their 6 year and counting 9(?) million dollar project.

    WE are the win win!

    I keep hammering away because if folks such as yourself who are pro-mining as well as on the fence as to what is really happening don't see the con and the fraud, we are indeed doomed. Plus if even one lurker or mole reads our discussions and actually uses the previously unused portion of their brain to question the folks they are supporting and it stops them from sending them more money or spreading their crud any longer than I've done something.
    Last edited by fowledup; Jun 01, 2015 at 02:11 AM.

  14. #29
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    OK Part 1.

    This is in the study and it needs to be kept in mind.

    "Upon exposure, in a healthy individual with adequate nutrition, metallothionein is expressed and mercury is eliminated from the body." Now considering the sheer magnitude of obesity in this country, how many people are actually getting "adequate nutrition"?

    Also notice they are talking about Hg in fish and high fructose corn syrup along with zinc deficiency and an excess of copper in the body.

    Mercury exposure, nutritional deficiencies and metabolic disruptions may affect learning in children

    And if you think about just how many products have HFCS in them, it is far easier to demonize mercury than remove the HFCS from products. Wanna guess how much money would be lost there?

    Another little tidbit.

    Selenium & Mercury Poisoning | LIVESTRONG.COM

    the amount of mercury present in food does not tell the whole story. It appears that mercury is attracted to selenium and selenium is able to bind to mercury and decrease its bioavailibility. Therefore, selenium is able to protect against mercury exposure. However, while mercury ties up available selenium, the body is not able to use it to form selenoproteins. Selenoproteins are proteins that contain selenium and act as antioxidants in the body. Nippon Eiseigaku Zasshi reports in "The Japanese Journal of Hygeine," that when a rodent's supply of selenium is depleted before or just after birth by binding with mercury, thyroid hormones that need selenium are disrupted. Thyroid hormone disruption at this point causes irreparable neurological damage. This shows that it is not mercury alone that causes neurological impairment. The impairment stems from mercury binding with selenium needed by the thyroid for brain development. The toxicity of mercury may depend on the amount of selenium available to bind mercury and the amount left over for normal selenium dependent functions.

    Still trying to find the report again that was done by Mr. Zasshi.

    A little more on selenium and the resultant selenoproteins.

    Regulation and function of selenoproteins in human disease

    So I will ask again, is it mercury poisoning or selenium deficiency that causes the problems?
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  15. #30
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    fowledup

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    If the situation is as bad as it seems and in need of such drastic immediate action -where is all the methylmercury? It's been 160+ years since the estimated 6 million pounds was introduced to the Sierra Nevada rivers from the goldrush, why is it still elemental and not methylmercury, it's certainly had enough time to convert? Or the naturally occuring merucury deposits on the coastal range? How about the hundreds of tons of mercury lying unmolested and unchanged in wooden and ceramic casks or flasks across the oceans floor from the shipwrecks going back a thousand plus years? Surely that has had enough time and agitation to create methylmercury! It's fear for funding period, in the mafia it's known as a protection racket! These do gooders are telling us that if we will pay them they will protect us from the bad stuff.
    It is not easy to form Methylmercury, it takes specific conditions to occur. Here's the best part- the Sierra Nevadas, specifically the Motherlode region are not even listed as problematic areas for methylmercury. However San Francisco Bay is, remember the Mercury Mines from the San Jose area and the Clear lake Cinnabar deposits up north which both flow into the Sacramento San Juaqin delta and subsequently San Francisco bay. So why is the Sierra Fund and others not targeting the areas noted by the USGS as the countries worst places? That is indeed a political back scratching story not suited for this forum!

    From USGS;
    Environments Where Methylmercury is a Problem

    Although mercury is a globally dispersed contaminant, it is not a problem everywhere. Aside from grossly polluted environments, mercury is normally a problem only where the rate of natural formation of methylmercury from inorganic mercury is greater than the reverse reaction. Methylmercury is the only form of mercury that accumulates appreciably in fish. Environments that are known to favor the production of methylmercury include certain types of wetlands, dilute low-pH lakes in Northeast and Northcentral United States, parts of the Florida Everglades, newly flooded reservoirs, and coastal wetlands, particularly along the Gulf of Mexico, Atlantic Ocean, and San Francisco Bay.
    Last edited by fowledup; Jun 01, 2015 at 01:32 AM.

 

 
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