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  1. #76
    us
    Aug 2008
    Alabama
    920
    1049 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwasher View Post
    Well said.

    Caribou one of the reasons we keep pounding on this is that fact that there is no outbreak of Mercury poisonings....no catastrophe waiting in the wings that we need urgent help with.
    Its simple is there naturally deposited Mercury in the state?...YES

    Is there "Legacy mercury" ? YES

    Is there mercury in fish? Yes

    Is there Mercury coming from the Atmosphere?

    Are there people dying in any number from it? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

    compared to all the other things harming the environment.......considering that there are actually programs in place that allow you to PAY for the permit to pollute.....

    and all dredgers do is remove these heavy metals leaving less in the environment(that wasn't actually hurting anything in the first place) to be distributed en mass by mother nature every so often.....


    Its absurd how easy it is to see these facts ...yet the population is so clueless that they will allow themselves to be taxed....those dollars go into the pockets of liars and now you can even go to a hearing where the real facts by far outweigh the situation professed by some non-profit....the people get up and speak, and still the people on the other side of the desk vote based on influence......not the will of the people.

    So, many side stories are created to pull focus from the real issue.....People will lie to get other peoples money....and if its easy the first time they will try again.
    I will keep doing whatever I can to make it harder.

    Aufisher likes this.
    " A man should look for what is , and not for what he thinks should be ". Albert Einstein





  2. #77
    us
    Aug 2008
    Alabama
    920
    1049 times
    Prospecting
    Aufisher likes this.
    " A man should look for what is , and not for what he thinks should be ". Albert Einstein





  3. #78
    us
    May 2009
    Sailor Flat, Ca.
    SDC2300, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil, ACME handbook for TRUE prospectors (unread)
    5,514
    12011 times
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    Banner Finds (1)
    Mad machinest thank you for your diligence....
    caribou keep studying.....
    Lawmakers in Ca. love to make money off of protecting its population from " POTENTIAL" harm,....studies, studies ,studies..... reports.... reports...... =
    CONFUSION....it wears people down. when coupled with the actual percentage of informed voters its a joke and they know it.
    when a portion of the population stands up it annoys the crap out of them because they don't expect it. they are just used to trying to keep the sheeps pen up to date and enough food and water for contentment.

    case in point the recent senate hearings regarding the new dredge bill...that was created because their other attempt is falling on its face due to facts, and the will of the mining community....
    you know the free range " BLACK SHEEP"

    Bills are supposed to be authored in consideration of the needs of the population historically created out of popular demand.
    The anti dredging bills and suits are not there because of popular demand. They are there because of the desire to line peoples pockets with tax payers money.
    When we filled the senate chambers and court rooms with support they didn't like it because they aren't used to the sheep trying to break out.
    They hold a hearing that is supposed to illustrate the bills purpose and facts about it....We had to bring up questions and in turn the panel did not push those questions they just go off of the word of the author and his supporters. we as representatives of the population actually affected were totally disregarded...

    Did anyone ask...

    What harms have been recorded recently?

    How many people are admitted for and treated for mercury poisoning related to exposure by waters in the state or fish consumed in them?( reent water board report shows the fish are safe)

    If the miners are removing elemental mercury before it can bio-convert and only "potentially" (funny how that word never counts in our favor) release a miniscule amount...which has been proven in studies to be un measurable vs. that disturbed and moved by nature..........again a "potential" that would be decreased with every ounce removed from waters upstream of reservoirs by dredgers. Why is the state not utilizing this effective " FREE" industry that already exists (EXISTED)?

    Why didn't the instances of heavy metals poisoning increase with the increase of dredging in Ca. from the late 1970's on especially in the waters localized to regions with "LEGACY" mercury and Cinnabar deposits.

    No miner denies that mercury exists...no miner denies that mercury can poison in certain situations.
    We just see what the sierra fund is doing....and hate how they use a system that is for the people against the people. A huge chunk of the population doesn't even care and doesn't even know that people are "legally" stealing from them because of this system.

    Therefore the notion that the people of the state are 'Pushing" for this sort of legislation are "pushing" for this sort of protection for their safety is a bunch of crap!!!!

    By numbers there are way more miners involved in the fight against this then there are actual people supporting the bill. if there were people supporting the bill they wouldn't have had interns stand in line supporting the bill...ALL TWO OF THEM....that I will point out stood up in support of a few other bills heard that day...you know very important bills like creating laws to insure drinking fountains at school were safe and other no brainer issues....

    People its their room and the don't want you in it....they are not used to the population getting involved.
    They are used to telling you about the things that will kill you....how they are protecting you and making laws for your protection....and they want you to know about it after the fact.
    Which is absolutely not the intent of the process. That they have just plain tried to abolish.

    Start presenting facts and contradiction and they squirm and sweat..... Why?

    They stand to lose A LOT of money!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Is it because they are worried about your health and the condition of the water?

    ....that's me laughing like a special interest normally does after a bill passes and the money starts rolling in


    I would still like some points addressed...Caribou......Not more reports and facts about mercury. I know all I need to know about mercury.
    I would like you to talk about the process for once...not dodge the situation.

    Mad Machinest isn't even a Ca. resident for that I thank him very much for the support

  4. #79
    us
    fowledup

    Jul 2013
    Northern California
    Whites GMT V/SAT
    2,757
    5167 times
    Prospecting
    Last edited by fowledup; Jun 08, 2015 at 10:39 PM.
    Aufisher and Hoser John like this.
    Folks may not remember the words of what you said but they dang sure will remember how you made them feel!

  5. #80
    us
    Oct 2014
    Oregon
    Garrett Carrot Pinpointer
    68
    55 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwasher View Post
    I would still like some points addressed...Caribou......Not more reports and facts about mercury. I know all I need to know about mercury.
    I would like you to talk about the process for once...not dodge the situation.
    I spent an hour writing a post and the post editor eats it.

    What, you wanna talk brass tacks about politics? I go after the science as a form of politics. Beat the game, at the game. Numbers get results? Fine, let's give environmentalists and politicians some numbers to chew on, in terms they understand.

    Frankly I've already done 20-30 hours of research this week and I estimate there's another 200-300 to search and corral a manageable, applicable slice of literature. I don't know many people who would go this far, which limits the number of people who can really be said to be fully informed on both the politics and the science. fowledup, you've obviously done a lot of legwork and I respect both your dedication and the cogent arguments that follow.

    Politics-wise...I think we're talking some massive official document writing, preferably by a legal pro, and hammered on by a dedicated crew, to get results. Look at the current dredging rules for example. I haven't counted the pages in the official CA dredging docs but I'd guesstimate at least 200, conservatively. I think one time-honored political tactic must be to just bury the pols and everyone else in paper. @_@

    A few points...

    All right, a dredge is not a "source" in that the mercury is already there. I can agree with that. It just gets called a "source" in a lot of the literature since it stirs up the streams and riverbeds so much. It gets to you after a while.

    The generally accepted medical consensus, from observations of the last 150 years, is that Mercury in all forms is biotoxic, specifically neurotoxic. If you disagree, kindly do your own 20 hours of academic research on this point.
    Find and read the case studies yourself. It pays to be cautious IMHO. And that's all I'm going to say about this anymore.

    MadMachinist, if you want to help your case, please dish up some actual citations, not just a link to a gated-access research community.
    Everything I've found so far is publicly available, even the hardcore academic stuff, you just have to dig for it. I have ProQuest and Informa at my alma mater's library if needs be.
    And now back to you.

    Cheers,
    - TANSTAAFL -
    The map is not the territory.
    If we do not act, we are acted upon.

  6. #81
    us
    May 2009
    Sailor Flat, Ca.
    SDC2300, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil, ACME handbook for TRUE prospectors (unread)
    5,514
    12011 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    and again no addressing of the situation at hand?....we don't need to discuss the science of mercury it is readily available....even if it seems mad machinist is arguing it.....that is beside the point...address the fact that there is no and has been no harm...outbreak....mass poisoning....more people die every day from falling off a stool then mercury poisoning....lets legislate the end of stools we need to the world full of stools is just too dangerous to stand by and not do any thing about it....
    The Gilded Lens and Aufisher like this.

  7. #82
    us
    Aug 2004
    Olympia WA
    Minelab Xterra 70, Minelab SD 2200d, 2.5", 3", 4"and several Keene 5" production dredges, Knelson Centrifuge, Gold screw automatic panner
    858
    1870 times
    Prospecting
    Not sure what the goal here is... but how about this

    Mercury in its elemental liquid form is relatively safe and can be handled without harm if you follow good hygiene, ventilation and storage practices. Nothing high tech, just commonly accepted practices not unlike (but less stringent than) the handling of gasoline. BTW - any 10 year old can buy and use gasoline and no one will blink an eye. Going one step farther...I would argue that if you had 5 gallons of mercury and 5 gallons of gasoline and dumped them both into a river...the gasoline will kill more fish and harm the food chain more than the HG.

    Other forms of mercury are much more toxic but poisonings are extremely rare and usually come from someone playing scientist when they have no idea what they are doing. They say that it gets in the food chain and that is bad but no one ever gets sick from it. They say mothers can pass it to their babies if they eat fish...
    Nicotine is the worlds oldest known insecticide and is an extremely effective neuro-toxin. 10's of thousands of people die from it annually and the only restrictions on it's sale and use is you need to be 18 to buy it and you can't use it in certain areas. If anyone reading this post has never tried a nicotine product prior to their 18th birthday, please raise your hand....oops no one. BTW - lots of women smoke during pregnancy, socially frowned upon but not subject to EPA superfund cleanup.

    My point here is that mercury requires a level of knowledge and respect but it has been hugely vilified by the left and media. They tried to do this with mold and it failed. They succeeded with lead paint. You cannot go through life living in a bubble of safety. You may encounter stairs that do not have a hand rail or a salad bar that doesn't have a sneeze shield...or you may have to use gasoline, electricity or mercury. When you do you you should learn the safe handling practices that each product requires.
    Last edited by Bonaro; Jun 09, 2015 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #83
    us
    Lady Miner

    Oct 2014
    The Sierra Nevadas
    Garrett 14" Pan, Garrett 15" Super Sluice Pan, Bazooka 36" Sniper, Hand Dredge
    476
    816 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonaro View Post
    Not sure what the goal here is... but how about this

    Mercury in its elemental liquid form is relatively safe and can be handled without harm if you follow good hygiene, ventilation and storage practices. Nothing high tech, just commonly accepted practices not unlike (but less stringent than) the handling of gasoline. BTW - any 10 year old can buy and use gasoline and no one will blink an eye. Going one step farther...I would argue that if you had 5 gallons of mercury and 5 gallons of gasoline and dumped them both into a river...the gasoline will kill more fish and harm the food chain more than the HG.

    Other forms of mercury are much more toxic but poisonings are extremely rare and usually come from someone playing scientist when they have no idea what they are doing. They say that it gets in the food chain and that is bad but no one ever gets sick from it. They say mothers can pass it to their babies if they eat fish...
    Nicotine is the worlds oldest known insecticide and is an extremely effective neuro-toxin. 10's of thousands of people die from it annually and the only restrictions on it's sale and use is you need to be 18 to buy it and you can't use it in certain areas. If anyone reading this post has never tried a nicotine product prior to their 18th birthday, please raise your hand....oops no one. BTW - lots of women smoke during pregnancy, socially frowned upon but not subject to EPA superfund cleanup.

    My point here is that mercury requires a level of knowledge and respect but it has been hugely vilified by the left and media. They tried to do this with mold and it failed. They succeeded with lead paint. You cannot go through life living in a bubble of safety. You may encounter stairs that do not have a hand rail or a salad bar that doesn't have a sneeze shield...or you may have to use gasoline, electricity or mercury. When you do you you should learn the safe handling practices that each product requires.

    Well said!

    I can honestly say I have never willingly ingested nicotine. 2nd hand smoke has happened though. Still, I would NEVER want a "Clean Air Act" pushed down my throat/lungs either!

    Is that what those annoying, stupidly angled, and awkward glass tops are? I assumed they were to keep you from quickly piling the food on. Like a food regulator, ha ha!
    Aufisher likes this.

  9. #84
    Charter Member
    us
    Period Six Mining and Exploration, LLC

    Aug 2010
    Southeast Arizona
    2,986
    4354 times
    Prospecting
    Caribou,

    I am in the process of cracking open an old hard drive that has all of this listed. Funny thing about this is when you get to a certain level in this funny things start happening to your computer. The old hard drive has one hell of a virus on it.

    And as the two studies you posted said, mercury and selenium form an insoluble and inert compound that is harmless. Using "mercury miners" as a reason to ban dredging still falls under being disingenuous at best. They have a "concentrated" exposure that any normal person would not have.

    There are a couple of studies that I am looking for to make my point. They deal specifically with pregnant women eating higher than average amounts of seafood and the resultant higher IQ of the children after birth.

    Back later.
    Mining is how I make my living. I turn mountains into dust on a daily basis.

  10. #85

    Oct 2013
    western sahara
    522
    701 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    a guess,selenium helped binding merc and together with omega 3 enhanced nervous system /brain development?
    Giving us an example of a bigger picture where as the benefits of the nutrients in fish overruled the neg.effects of the harming substance.
    However ,caribou wants to hear you say that mercury isn,t healthy ,which we can,t deny ,problem is he wants to relate that(or maybe he is training us on how dredging opponents are working) directly to dredging ,ignoring all the other factors ,the bigger picture.

    Analogy;
    The body is the streambed containing merc,the dredgers,panners and sluicers are the selenium, binding merc in there sluices.
    Last edited by spaghettigold; Jun 09, 2015 at 01:14 PM.
    Aufisher likes this.

  11. #86

    Oct 2013
    western sahara
    522
    701 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    so much for containing myself...

    Takoda,s popcorn consuption should also be considered toxic in the meantime..lol
    Aufisher and TAKODA like this.

  12. #87

    Oct 2013
    western sahara
    522
    701 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    The fictive person,s body ingested a big dose of mercury,some 150 years ago.(He,s an old fella.)

    A wannabee doctor (sierra fund)comes by and see,s a chance to make some money on prescribing more expensive medical treatment than selenium(The miners) and says;YOU FilTHY SELENIUM!YOU ARE THE SOURCE OF THE MERCURY !!I CAN MEASURE IT AT THE BODYS OUTLET!
    He then runs to the goverment to get a ban on selenium,because if the body cures himself with selenium ,he can prescribe his totally overpriced treatment only over a shorter timerange
    Last edited by spaghettigold; Jun 09, 2015 at 01:59 PM.
    KevinInColorado and Aufisher like this.

  13. #88
    Charter Member
    us
    Period Six Mining and Exploration, LLC

    Aug 2010
    Southeast Arizona
    2,986
    4354 times
    Prospecting
    I found what I was looking for. And in interest of bandwidth, this should put this issue to bed.

    This study was conducted over 8 years so it is not a fly by night thing like most studies are turning into.

    You'll have to register to read the full text, but the registration is free.

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...277-3/fulltext

    If mercury was so damned toxic in any dose, then this study would have revealed it.
    Mining is how I make my living. I turn mountains into dust on a daily basis.

  14. #89
    Charter Member
    us
    Period Six Mining and Exploration, LLC

    Aug 2010
    Southeast Arizona
    2,986
    4354 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by spaghettigold View Post
    a guess,selenium helped binding merc and together with omega 3 enhanced nervous system /brain development?
    Giving us an example of a bigger picture where as the benefits of the nutrients in fish overruled the neg.effects of the harming substance.
    However ,caribou wants to hear you say that mercury isn,t healthy ,which we can,t deny ,problem is he wants to relate that(or maybe he is training us on how dredging opponents are working) directly to dredging ,ignoring all the other factors ,the bigger picture.

    Analogy;
    The body is the streambed containing merc,the dredgers,panners and sluicers are the selenium, binding merc in there sluices.
    Very good my astute padawan, the force is strong with you.
    Mining is how I make my living. I turn mountains into dust on a daily basis.

  15. #90

    Oct 2013
    western sahara
    522
    701 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I,didn,t know that selenium binds merc before the t net discussions,only knew about the benefits for nervous system and inflammatory processes coming from omega 3 .
    Due to my extensive sports backround in recently passed away younger years i tryed to eat good and read many articles.I,ve eated ton,s of tuna and i,m smoking like there,s no tomorow.The tuna ,s not gone kille me but the cigarettes may one day.Like you point out we have also to add the dose to the equation.
    May the Masters Degree be with you.(had to google padavan)
    Last edited by spaghettigold; Jun 09, 2015 at 02:44 PM.

 

 
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