Doing the "Due Diligence Dance"

[goldenIrishman]

Ok... I am just about ready to turn in my dancing shoes here. Between local governmental agencies not having any idea of what's going on and Federal agencies having even less of a clue (combined with an attitude on the phone as well) I haven't been able to get the required information on some sections of ground that Jan and I are very interested in. Let me tell y'all what I've encountered on this little journey so far and see if I'm the only one thinking there's something funny going on here.

As most of you know, I've been using the MyLandMatters.org site on a regular basis to research areas in an effort to find some good ground to claim and mine. I use all of the layers and information there to decide on which areas to explore in more depth and to decide on which areas to flat out avoid. Using Clays site I can check things like current claims and who owns them as well as access to just about any given area of interest. Jan and I found some interesting ground in a HIGHLY mineralized area that is only 20 minutes from our house and that's where the "Due Diligence Dance" started. Here is some background information that's highly redacted in some areas to preserve our own interest.

The area that we are interested in had been claimed in quarter section chunks by a corporation out of New Jersey. They had grabbed up three quarters of a couple of sections (as well as full sections in some other areas) so of course I was looking at the unclaimed areas in those sections. Well during my research I learned that this corporation had lost seven out of their eight "members" back in 1999. A transfer of interest was filed in November of 2014. Further research showed that the BLM rendered a decision in 2015 that the claims had to be "adjusted" from 160 acres (entire quarter sections) down to 20 acres with in these quarter sections. The LR2000 shows that the adjusted filings were recorded on 08/19/2015. The problem is that NO ONE at BLM can tell us what the "adjusted" claims locations are!!!! BLM doesn't know even though they show it as being filed. The Mohave County Recorders also have zip, zero and nada for information on these adjustments in their records.

Jan and I are trying to do everything "By the book" here and avoid any possible legal problems down the road. What is frustrating is that we can't get the required information we need to be able to prove that we've done our due diligence and done it correctly. While the young lady at the Mohave County Recorders office was very helpful and tried her best, there was nothing in her records on any adjustments being made to the original filings. While the BLMs records show that the adjustment was filed on 08/19/2015, they can't find (or are too lazy to look for it) the adjusted sizes of these claims and their new boundaries. Not only that, but the guy on the phone copped an attitude with me like he couldn't be bothered to do his job.

Those of us that try our best to be responsible miners by dotting all the "I"s and crossing all the "T"s in an effort to follow the laws are running into these kinds of problems on a regular basis any more. Since I started researching these areas, I've developed a feeling that the corporation that had claimed these areas up is/was running some kind of scam and their investors found out about it. While gold mining scams are nothing new, their actions have caused a lot of good areas to be locked up which prevents honest miners from claiming and working these areas. I had considered contacting the company in question to see if they would give me the information on the adjusted claim locations but decided against it in case they are running some kind of scam. What would keep them from lying to us so they could set us up for a lawsuit for claim jumping?

I realize the importance of doing our due diligence, keeping all our records up to date and playing by the rules. It's unfortunate that there are others out there that seem to insist on playing games and keeping honest miners from earning a living off the land. I haven't named any names or given any information on the exact locations in question because I want to be able to file on these areas as soon as I can get things worked out. Even so, I'm not going to stop trying to find out the truth on what's going on here, nor am I going to limit myself to just these areas.

 

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[chlsbrns]

If I understand correctly, it is up to the prospector to check the lands
for existing claims prior to surveying them, as claim markers are not
required.

Could be I've learned a few things here, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Federal law specifies that claim boundaries must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily identifiable.



Staking

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/non-energy_minerals/request_to_mining.html

 

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[Goldwasher]

Federal law specifies that claim boundaries must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily identifiable.



Staking

another link that doesn't tell the full story and proves again that you don't know what your talking about!!!!

 

[chlsbrns]

another link that doesn't tell the full story and proves again that you don't know what your talking about!!!!

Please do correct me and provide a link to the whole story.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I believe it is required by the BLM in AZ...or the claim in essentially crap from what I have been told, I could be wrong but that's what I have been told by other prospectors.

You have been told wrong. The State of Arizona establishes the laws regarding claiming in Arizona not the BLM.

Another thing, I have seen some claims that have no gps locations for their boundaries, just a simple diagram describing the landscape and the boundaries, but then you check the site to see where the mounument post markers are, and find out their simple sketch is pretty far from accurate. Its an important thing when there is some open ground right next to their claim you are interested in.

Claims are not made by GPS or Latitude/Longitude. There are only two ways to legally describe a claim, aliquot part or metes and bounds.

Arizona law only requires that the map be "Based upon the performance of a survey performed commensurate with the abilities of the locator." and "Nothing contained in this section shall require a locator to employ a professional surveyor or engineer for the preparation of the map, plat or sketch required by this section."

In my experience most prospectors don't have a clue how to do a survey or make a map. Lucky for them the law allows them to do their best and still keep their claim no matter what rumors you heard.

It's pretty simple for prospectors to find the truth of these matters. I've spent years helping to educate prospectors. I've seen you putting these same incorrect ideas about claims out in public before. Why not discover the facts and leave those rumors behind you?

Here are the laws regarding mineral locations in Arizona. It's not very long and if you have difficulty understanding what's written there myself and many of your other fellow prospectors are here to help you.

Educate yourself and prosper!

Heavy Pans

 

[fowledup]

Please do correct me and provide a link to the whole story.

From the 1872 mining laws:

§28. Mining district regulations by miners: location, recordation, and amount of work; marking of location on ground; records; annual labor or improvements on claims pending issue of patent; co-owner’s succession in interest upon delinquency in contributing proportion of expenditures; tunnel as lode expenditure

The miners of each mining district may make regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States, or with the laws of the State or Territory in which the district is situated, governing the location, manner of recording, amount of work necessary to hold possession of a mining claim, subject to the following requirements: The location must be distinctly marked on the ground so that its boundaries can be readily traced. All records of mining claims made after May 10, 1872, shall contain the name or names of the locators, the date of the location, and such a description of the claim or claims located by reference to some natural object or permanent monument as will identify the claim. On each claim located after the 10th day of May 1872, and until a patent has been issued therefor, not less than $100 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made during each year. On all claims located prior to the 10th day of May 1872, $10 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made each year, for each one hundred feet in Length along the vein until a patent has been issued therefor; but where such claims are held in common, such expenditure may by made upon any one claim; and upon a failure to comply with these conditions, the claim or mine upon which such failure occurred shall be open to relocation in the same manner as if no location of the same had ever been made, provided that the original locators, their heirs, assigns, or legal representatives, have not resumed work upon the claim after failure and before such location. Upon the failure of any one of several coowners to contribute his proportion of the expenditures required hereby, the coowners who have performed the labor or made the improvements may, at the expiration of the year, give such delinquent co-owner personal notice in writing or notice by publication in the newspaper published nearest the claim, for at least once a week for ninety days, and if at the expiration of ninety days after such notice in writing or by publication such delinquent should fail or refuse to contribute his proportion of the expenditure required by this section, his interest in the claim shall become the proper6ty of his co-owners who have made the required expenditures. The period within which the work required to be done annually on all unpatented mineral claims located since May 10, 1872, including such claims in the Territory of Alaska, shall commence at 12 o’clock meridian on the 1st day of September seceding the date of location of such claim.

 

[chlsbrns]

From the 1872 mining laws:

§28. Mining district regulations by miners: location, recordation, and amount of work; marking of location on ground; records; annual labor or improvements on claims pending issue of patent; co-owner’s succession in interest upon delinquency in contributing proportion of expenditures; tunnel as lode expenditure

The miners of each mining district may make regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States, or with the laws of the State or Territory in which the district is situated, governing the location, manner of recording, amount of work necessary to hold possession of a mining claim, subject to the following requirements: The location must be distinctly marked on the ground so that its boundaries can be readily traced. All records of mining claims made after May 10, 1872, shall contain the name or names of the locators, the date of the location, and such a description of the claim or claims located by reference to some natural object or permanent monument as will identify the claim. On each claim located after the 10th day of May 1872, and until a patent has been issued therefor, not less than $100 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made during each year. On all claims located prior to the 10th day of May 1872, $10 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made each year, for each one hundred feet in Length along the vein until a patent has been issued therefor; but where such claims are held in common, such expenditure may by made upon any one claim; and upon a failure to comply with these conditions, the claim or mine upon which such failure occurred shall be open to relocation in the same manner as if no location of the same had ever been made, provided that the original locators, their heirs, assigns, or legal representatives, have not resumed work upon the claim after failure and before such location. Upon the failure of any one of several coowners to contribute his proportion of the expenditures required hereby, the coowners who have performed the labor or made the improvements may, at the expiration of the year, give such delinquent co-owner personal notice in writing or notice by publication in the newspaper published nearest the claim, for at least once a week for ninety days, and if at the expiration of ninety days after such notice in writing or by publication such delinquent should fail or refuse to contribute his proportion of the expenditure required by this section, his interest in the claim shall become the proper6ty of his co-owners who have made the required expenditures. The period within which the work required to be done annually on all unpatented mineral claims located since May 10, 1872, including such claims in the Territory of Alaska, shall commence at 12 o’clock meridian on the 1st day of September seceding the date of location of such claim.

Dizzy posted that claim markers are not required. I provided links showing that dizzy is incorrect. Goldwasher posted that I didn't know what I am talking about even though I said nothing. I mearly quoted from the link. Now you posted what? It has nothing to do with what has been discussed.

 

[fowledup]

From the BLM handbook on staking a mining claim;

Staking a Mining Claim or Site
Federal law simply specifies that claim and site boundaries
must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily
identifiable on the ground (43 CFR Part 3832). The
General Mining Law allows States to establish their own
laws regarding the manner in which mining claims and
sites are located and recorded. Location requirements
include the placement, size, and acceptable materials for
a corner post or a discovery monument. Check with the
proper State agency before locating mining claims. State
agencies may include the State’s geological survey, mineral
resource department, lands commission, or department
of environmental protection.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Morning guys. This is a pre-coffee post so bare bear with me here...

First off a prospector is required to do their due diligence to make sure of a couple things before boots hit the ground.
1. Check MASTER PLAT to see if the area is open to mineral entry

2. Check with County Recorders office to see if there are any older claims in the area. Then check the LR2000 to see if they are still valid. Locate them from county records onto a map if they're still valid, keeping in mind that the LR2000 is usually slow to update. If in doubt, back up and take a breath.
A. This is only the start in my book. I then go out to the area and check that no one has staked it while I was doing the other checks. If it has been then I would keep an eye on the county records for 90 days. If the piece hasn't been filed on by then, it is considered as open again. You have 90 days form the date the ground is staked and the Monument of Discovery put up to file on it. If you miss that 90 day limit, you have to re-discover and change the paperwork in the monument to reflect that. Again the 90 day clock starts from the date on the new paperwork.
B. If no one has staked the ground I want when I get there, I put up my corner posts by "dead reckoning" using a compass and topo map to shoot the bearings and locating my position by triangulation from known topo features. A full survey is not required by law. As long as you know how to use a map and compass well enough to shoot accurate azimuths and calculate the back azimuths you're good. ( I was trained by the Army) Then you do up a quick map of the area as close to scale as you can but not over 1 inch to the mile. Map copy goes in the monument along with the notice of discovery. (I keep blank map forms and discovery forms in the truck at all times) Depending on the terrain, the staking can take between a couple of hours to as long as a couple of days to get to the corner locations.

3. Now... haul yourself to the county Recorders office and file the claim on a Wednesday afternoon and make sure you have copies of EVERYTHING before you leave!!! Get up the next morning and haul yourself to the BLM and do your paperwork there and pay your fees. You want to do these two steps as closely to each other as possible so someone can't try coming in with back dated paperwork and steal your claim out from under you.

Now.... Here are a couple of notes on what ARIZONA requires for a VALID claim. All corners must be marked and tagged with the bearings and distance to the next corner. Posts have to be either 4X4 wood at least 4ft tall above ground level and painted white or 4in PVC pipe that is capped. (The greenies don't want no poor critters getting trapped in the pipe and dying.) Same 4 ft height requirement.

Example of corner plates which are BRIGHT Yellow:
Claim name:Monsoon #7-36 I use the monsoon name for all my claims with which claim # it is and which quadrant it's in.
Claimant:My name
Address:mailing address goes here
Corner Number: #1 (I always do the northwest corners as #1 the northeast as #2 Etc.)
Direction to corner post number: #2 - 90 degrees magnetic
Distance to corner post number: #2 - 1320 feet

The corner monument has a jar (peanut butter one work great) attached to it with COPIES of the discovery map and the filing paperwork tucked inside it. It's a good idea to also keep copies of this paperwork in your miners file box so you can replace them as needed. I drill a small hole in the jar lid and screw it to the side of the post. This protects the paperwork well.

All filings must be made with the County including any adjustments to the claim size. "Adjustments include changes of size, adding or subtracting claimants (which calls for a quit claim deed filing to be valid) Basically any changes have to be recorded at the county level for the claim to remain valid. This is where the company I mentioned earlier screwed up. THEY were doing their filings with the BLM and NOT with the county. This alone is what invalidated their claims and opened up over 5,200 acres of land to claiming again. (I still think that this was a guy running some kind of a scam.) EVERYTHING has to be recorded at the County level and the BLM notified of the changes so their fees can be adjusted accordingly.

Any time you stake a claim, it's a good idea to take before and after pictures to show the area and include a non interested party in them as a witness to the staking. These show that the area was not staked when you got there and that it was properly staked when you left. This give you extra leverage in court should someone try to back date your claim to steal it from you. First staked and filed get the claim. If they can't produce pictures then they've got a much weaker case. In most areas this isn't a huge problem but in others it is. If it's highly coveted ground, competition for claims can be fierce so you've got to C.Y.A. at every turn!

Hope this helps! Now for another cup o mud!

 

[fowledup]

Dizzy posted that claim markers are not required. I provided links showing that dizzy is incorrect. Goldwasher posted that I didn't know what I am talking about even though I said nothing. I mearly quoted from the link. Now you posted what? It has nothing to do with what has been discussed.

You stated; "Federal law specifies that claim boundaries must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily identifiable." and
asked for a link to the whole story, I provided excerpts from two. Point being claim marker requirements are not entirely up to the FEDS

 

[Goldwasher]

Oh look if you read and UNDERSTAND it makes all kinds of sense.....There fore I don't need to post links to each states own regs....the guys in those states have a duty to do so and should it's an educational experience....and weeds out the undeducated....if someone knows what they are talking about...they wouldn't post links to federal rules that state the states are allowed to make their own....therefore everything I have said is absolutely correct. I NEVER said markers weren't required neither did dizz....Monuments ALWAYS Corners...SOMETIMES....based on State law with a certain level of federal influence....and a lot of protection That's the whole story......misinformation makes it convoluted...when it doesn't need to be...and people telling people to do things they don't have to is silly....trying to find loopholes to and stealing from people because of a technicality if you CAN....well now...that's just not cool

 

[goldenIrishman]

Laws vary from state to state Chlsbrns as Fowled politely pointed out. Again this is the west and things are different out here. Just between Clay, Fowled and myself, there are over 100 years of collective experience in doing due diligence and filing for claims here in the west. I've been prospecting and mining for 33 years, in 3 different states and have yet to have any legal problems because I know and follow the laws for the state in which I'm working in. It takes time to learn all the ins and outs of the mining laws and regulations for each state. Each state is slightly different in their requirements.

I do have a question for you though. Which township and range of the Public Land Survey System (PLSS) are your operations located in. I'd like to check my data sources and see how they compare to those you've listed from the USGS.

 

[winners58]

here in Oregon all the land is surveyed and state law only requires the location notice
be in an obvious place at least for placer claims, they are located by "legal subdivision"
the Public Land Survey System "PLSS" and Master Title Plat "MTP" are used
http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/files/placer-claim-layout.pdf

"the boundaries of a claim so located and described need not be staked or monumented.
The description by legal subdivisions in the notice required to be filed under ORS 517.052
shall be deemed the equivalent of marking the surface boundaries of the claim. [1961 c.525 §3]"
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors517.html

 

[Clay Diggins]

I do have a question for you though. Which township and range of the Public Land Survey System (PLSS) are your operations located in. I'd like to check my data sources and see how they compare to those you've listed from the USGS.

There are no Townships, Ranges or Sections where Sepa lives. There is no Public Land Survey System (PLSS) in the 13 original States, Hawaii or Texas because there have never been any public lands there. The public lands consist primarily of:

The Northwest Territory
The Louisiana Purchase
The Florida Purchase
The Oregon Treaty
The Gadsden Purchase
The Alaska Purchase

The PLSS dates to 1785 well before the current Constitution or any land purchases but not before the original 13 colonies formed the Union. Texas and Hawaii are special cases of States that were created by negotiation rather than purchase or treaty.

Heavy Pans

 

[chlsbrns]

From the BLM handbook on staking a mining claim;

Staking a Mining Claim or Site
Federal law simply specifies that claim and site boundaries
must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily
identifiable on the ground (43 CFR Part 3832). The
General Mining Law allows States to establish their own
laws regarding the manner in which mining claims and
sites are located and recorded. Location requirements
include the placement, size, and acceptable materials for
a corner post or a discovery monument. Check with the
proper State agency before locating mining claims. State
agencies may include the State’s geological survey, mineral
resource department, lands commission, or department
of environmental protection.

Thats from the link that I posted and proves that claims have to have some sort of marker or monument. It proves that dizzy was incorrect. Yes the type of marker is up to each State but it still has to be done.

 

[chlsbrns]

If I understand correctly, it is up to the prospector to check the lands
for existing claims prior to surveying them, as claim markers are not
required.

Could be I've learned a few things here, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I did as asked and corrected him.

The usual crew liked that post even though dizzy was incorrect. Go figure?

 

[goldenIrishman]

There are no Townships, Ranges or Sections where Sepa lives. There is no Public Land Survey System (PLSS) in the 13 original States, Hawaii or Texas because there have never been any public lands there. The public lands consist primarily of:

The Northwest Territory
The Louisiana Purchase
The Florida Purchase
The Oregon Treaty
The Gadsden Purchase
The Alaska Purchase

The PLSS dates to 1785 well before the current Constitution or any land purchases but not before the original 13 colonies formed the Union. Texas and Hawaii are special cases of States that were created by negotiation rather than purchase or treaty.

Heavy Pans

We knew this already Clay. I was trying to test certain people and if we were lucky, keep them out of our collective hair for a bit.

 

[fowledup]

Thats from the link that I posted and proves that claims have to have some sort of marker or monument. It proves that dizzy was incorrect. Yes the type of marker is up to each State but it still has to be done.

YES- it is, however you lead in and purposely omitted the crux of the entire meaning applicable to the conversation and asked for the whole story which I gave. -having a meaningful and constructive conversation with you is akin to wrestling with a pig in mud; Eventually you find yourself out of breath and frustrated and realize that the pig is enjoying himself and, well...... happier than a pig in sh--! Normally I'd just shrug it off and point out how cute this kind of behavior is at this age, but anymore it's just irritating as this is a great site that keeps getting sucked back into the stone ages by the same few who continue to pipe up only in the interest of screwing up a thread or flaming a poster. I learned a long time ago if twenty folks are telling you that your not getting it or are incorrect, that you may want to evaluate your current position and stance. Although I appreciate GoldenIrishmans compliment I am nowhere near in the same league of knowledge or experience as Mr. Diggins. I am perfectly happy and content with being a lifelong student. I am always willing and looking forward to gaining more knowledge. I encourage you to embrace the same approach on this forum, it makes it a much more pleasurable experience for everyone involved. As was said before "Bless your everlovin heart"!

 

[Jeff95531]

I almost posted the image that goes along with the pig statement you mentioned BUT was afraid I would get banned BUT tyvm for writing what I was picturing. GMTA

 

[chlsbrns]

For the most part I've learned that many post incorrect info and even more like posts with incorrect info.

 

[Jeff95531]

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