This is why the state will lose a legal challenge to SB 637

Oakview2

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From Walt Wagner PLP

Incidental Fallback
"Incidental Fallback" represents a net withdrawal, not an addition of material. Incidental Fallback cannot be a discharge within the meaning of any State or Federal Clean Water Acts (CWA) as the CWA only permits and regulates additions. All gold mining suction dredges are designed to withdraw heavy metal (based on their specific gravity) from gravels and soils, it cannot be said that suction dredges add anything within the meaning of the CWA. It is simple math, the difference between addition and subtraction. Those activities that add can require a 401, 402, or 404 permit, those that subtract do not require a permit at all. That is the intent of Congress. The EPA and the Army Corp has for the past 30 years tried to redefine "Incidental Fallback" under a regulated and permitted "redeposit" category, but the courts have found this agency practice invalid on numerous occasions and instructed the EPA and Army Corp to remove their offending regulatory expansion.
To illustrate this point originally in Nat'l Mining Ass'n v. U.S. Army Corps of Eng'rs, 145 F.3d 1399, 1404 (D.C.Cir.1998). The court explained that, "ecause incidental fallback represents a net withdrawal, not an addition, of material, it cannot be a discharge" and questioned "how there can be an addition of dredged material when there is no addition of material." Emphasis added.
And
“This understanding of "discharge" excludes the small-volume incidental discharge that accompanies excavation and landclearing activities. Senator Muskie explained that "the bill tries to free from the threat of regulation those kinds of manmade activities which are sufficiently de minimis as to merit general attention at the State and local level and little or no attention at the State and local level and little or no attention at the national level." Senate Report on S. 1952, 95th Cong., reprinted in 1977 Legis.Hist. at 645. Senator Domenici stated that "we never intended under section 404 that the Corps of Engineers be involved in the daily lives of our farmers, realtors, people involved in forestry, anyone that is moving a little bit of earth anywhere in this country that might have an impact on navigable streams." Senate Debate, id. at 924.
This holding stands today and is reflected from the National Association of Homebuilders v. Corps decision (D.D.C. 2007) invalidating the January 17, 2001, amendments to the Clean Water Act Section 404 regulatory definition of “discharge of dredged material” (referred to as the “Tulloch II” rule). The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have promulgated a joint final rule to amend this definition by conforming the Corps’ and EPA’s regulations to the language of the court’s opinion by deleting language from the regulation that was invalidated.
Agencies like to try and say that sediment movement or the turbidity created by suction dredging also creates a discharge, but in Frobel v. Meyer, 13 F. Supp.2d 843 the court ruled: “Redepositing of indigenous sediment caused by state agency's removal of dam did not result in any “discharge of dredged material” that would require permit from Army Corps of Engineers under Clean Water Act (CWA) and either possible version of implementing regulations, even if manner in which dam was removed created a “scouring action” that disturbed sediment and funneled it downstream. Federal Water Pollution Control Act, § 404(a), as amended, 33 U.S.C.A. § 1344(a); 33 C.F.R. § 323.2(d).”
The State, as mandated by the CWA and funded by federal law, cannot carry out an objective when it conflicts or is inconsistent with express Congressional intent, exemptions, and purpose. See CA Coastal Commission v. Granite Rock 480 U.S. 572
 

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fowledup

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Wouldn't that be sweet justice to have their efforts to kill us off actually serve to shore up, solidify and lock in a permanent future for small scale mining.
 

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Oakview2

Oakview2

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The passage was premised on the "fact" that dredging needed a discharge permit..
 

Hefty1

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From Walt Wagner PLP

Incidental Fallback
"Incidental Fallback" represents a net withdrawal, not an addition of material. Incidental Fallback cannot be a discharge within the meaning of any State or Federal Clean Water Acts (CWA) as the CWA only permits and regulates additions. All gold mining suction dredges are designed to withdraw heavy metal (based on their specific gravity) from gravels and soils, it cannot be said that suction dredges add anything within the meaning of the CWA. It is simple math, the difference between addition and subtraction. Those activities that add can require a 401, 402, or 404 permit, those that subtract do not require a permit at all. That is the intent of Congress. The EPA and the Army Corp has for the past 30 years tried to redefine "Incidental Fallback" under a regulated and permitted "redeposit" category, but the courts have found this agency practice invalid on numerous occasions and instructed the EPA and Army Corp to remove their offending regulatory expansion.
To illustrate this point originally in Nat'l Mining Ass'n v. U.S. Army Corps of Eng'rs, 145 F.3d 1399, 1404 (D.C.Cir.1998). The court explained that, "ecause incidental fallback represents a net withdrawal, not an addition, of material, it cannot be a discharge" and questioned "how there can be an addition of dredged material when there is no addition of material." Emphasis added.
And
“This understanding of "discharge" excludes the small-volume incidental discharge that accompanies excavation and landclearing activities. Senator Muskie explained that "the bill tries to free from the threat of regulation those kinds of manmade activities which are sufficiently de minimis as to merit general attention at the State and local level and little or no attention at the State and local level and little or no attention at the national level." Senate Report on S. 1952, 95th Cong., reprinted in 1977 Legis.Hist. at 645. Senator Domenici stated that "we never intended under section 404 that the Corps of Engineers be involved in the daily lives of our farmers, realtors, people involved in forestry, anyone that is moving a little bit of earth anywhere in this country that might have an impact on navigable streams." Senate Debate, id. at 924.
This holding stands today and is reflected from the National Association of Homebuilders v. Corps decision (D.D.C. 2007) invalidating the January 17, 2001, amendments to the Clean Water Act Section 404 regulatory definition of “discharge of dredged material” (referred to as the “Tulloch II” rule). The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have promulgated a joint final rule to amend this definition by conforming the Corps’ and EPA’s regulations to the language of the court’s opinion by deleting language from the regulation that was invalidated.
Agencies like to try and say that sediment movement or the turbidity created by suction dredging also creates a discharge, but in Frobel v. Meyer, 13 F. Supp.2d 843 the court ruled: “Redepositing of indigenous sediment caused by state agency's removal of dam did not result in any “discharge of dredged material” that would require permit from Army Corps of Engineers under Clean Water Act (CWA) and either possible version of implementing regulations, even if manner in which dam was removed created a “scouring action” that disturbed sediment and funneled it downstream. Federal Water Pollution Control Act, § 404(a), as amended, 33 U.S.C.A. § 1344(a); 33 C.F.R. § 323.2(d).”
The State, as mandated by the CWA and funded by federal law, cannot carry out an objective when it conflicts or is inconsistent with express Congressional intent, exemptions, and purpose. See CA Coastal Commission v. Granite Rock 480 U.S. 572



Now this makes sense ...why doesn't this state... or the lawmakers know this stuff before they waste taxpayers MONEY making stupid laws?

IN YOUR FACE DIZZY MARTIN :censored:
 

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ratled

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Now this makes sense ...why doesn't this state... or the lawmakers know this stuff before they waste taxpayers MONEY making stupid laws?

IN YOUR FACE DIZZY MARTIN :censored:

I took the Liberty to post what you might get back from the Gov "This is the West sir, When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

ratled
 

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Oakview2

Oakview2

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It was testified to when they had the hearings and they ignored it. Now they know we must pony up more money to challenge, then they will start the tactics of stalling and delaying, all the time they are defending this bogus law with our tax dollars. It is shameful.


Now this makes sense ...why doesn't this state... or the lawmakers know this stuff before they waste taxpayers MONEY making stupid laws?

IN YOUR FACE DIZZY MARTIN :censored:
 

Clay Diggins

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From Walt Wagner PLP

Incidental Fallback
"Incidental Fallback" represents a net withdrawal

Good barking but wrong tree. Suction dredging does not ever amount to incidental fallback.

Walt and his advisers need to go back and read the entire law. Following this path will put miners firmly on the path of Corps of Engineers 400 permits and many many future court losses. :BangHead:

Definitely not a service to miners.

Heavy Pans
 

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Oakview2

Oakview2

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It is simple math, the difference between addition and subtraction. Those activities that add can require a 401, 402, or 404 permit, those that subtract do not require a permit at all. That is the intent of Congress. The EPA and the Army Corp has for the past 30 years tried to redefine "Incidental Fallback" under a regulated and permitted "redeposit" category, but the courts have found this agency practice invalid on numerous occasions and instructed the EPA and Army Corp to remove their offending regulatory expansion. ?????????????????????????????



Good barking but wrong tree. Suction dredging does not ever amount to incidental fallback.

Walt and his advisers need to go back and read the entire law. Following this path will put miners firmly on the path of Corps of Engineers 400 permits and many many future court losses. :BangHead:

Definitely not a service to miners.

Heavy Pans
 

ratled

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Keep in mind that the USACE doesn't think that small scale dredges are a trigger point event for a 402 or 404 permit but issued one to the state of CA in past as a matter of courtesy.

ratled
 

Clay Diggins

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The courts have ruled that "incidental fallback" occurs when a bucket is used to excavate material and the material falls from the bucket back into the water.

What are you excavating and where's your bucket?

MMAC and PLP are off the track on this one. Looking for loopholes in the regulations when the answer is already decided by two Supreme Court decisions adds up to a big fail on the horizon.

Heavy Pans
 

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Hefty1

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In United States v. Lambert, 18 Env't Rep.Cas. (BNA) 1294, 1981 WL 14886 (M.D.Fla.1981), aff'd, 695 F.2d 536 (I lth Cir. 1983), the court stated that back-spill from excavation "does not... constitute the discharge of a pollutant [under the Act], when the dredged spoil simply falls back into the area from which it has just been taken. Such an event cannot reasonably be considered to be the addition of a pollutant." [FN 1 6] Id. at 1296. The only case to consider incidental fallback to be a regulated discharge is Reid v. Marsh, 20 Env't Rep.Cas. (BNA) 1337, 1342, 1984 WL 178396 (N.D.Ohio 1984). [FNI7] That case, however, limited the Corps' jurisdiction to the "discharge" itself; the Corps was not authorized to regulate the entire dredging activity. [FN18] Id. at 1342.
 

Hefty1

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verb (used with object), excavated, excavating. 1. to make hollow by removing the inner part; make a hole or cavity in; form into a hollow, as by digging: The ground was excavated for a foundation.


2. to make (a hole, tunnel, etc.) by removing material.

3. to dig or scoop out (earth, sand, etc.).

4. to expose or lay bare by or as if by digging; unearth: to excavate an ancient city.
 

Hefty1

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[h=1]Dredging[/h]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dredging is an excavation activity usually carried out at least partly underwater, in shallow seas or freshwater areas with the purpose of gathering up bottom sediments and disposing of them at a different location. This technique is often used to keep waterways navigable. It is also used as a way to replenish sand on some public beaches, where sand has been lost because of coastal erosion. Dredging is also used as a technique for fishing for certain species of edible clams and crabs (see fishing dredge).
 

winners58

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history
Incidental Discharges to Wetlands From Development May Require a CWA Permit. Or Maybe Not. | Marten Law

maybe if you apply for a 404 for activity's involving only "Incidental fallback" with some careful wording
(like the stream bed material falls back to essentially the same spot)
and get a letter that a 404 is not required, would that satisfy the wording in SB637 if so take that to DFW to get their permit.
MEMORANDUM U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Divisions and Districts | Wetlands | US EPA

in this anti mining comments for the last workshop on 401 in 2007,
has a copy of the 404 permit that was issued for 1995 and was not renewed in 2000
in exhibit A (page 22)
http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water...suctiondredge/comments/friends_northfork1.pdf
 

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fowledup

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So far what's been decided in court, stated in law or proven thru science hasn't held water or amounted to a hill of beans. The only thing thats mattered has been the who's. Who's wineing and dining who, who's lying to who, and who's getting paid and who's swinging the gavel at the end. That being said what do we have to lose? Half of nothing is still nothing which is what we got now and what the value of our claims is rapidly approaching.
 

winners58

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in order to win a legal challenge you first have to have your day in court
in what case have we been able to show evidence, when has the state proved harm.
:BangHead:
 

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