New Group, Oregon Mining Association

[winners58]

New lobby for Oregon Miners, Oregon Mining Association
Dave Hunnicutt, Richard Angstrom, & Matt Ellsworth of AEMA
Oregon Mining Association | Promoting Oregon's Mining Industry
&
https://www.facebook.com/OregonMiningAssociation
mining groups that joined OCAPA will be moved over to the new group to focus on metal mining issues.

the other group that is going to fight for mining in Salem is;
Oregonians In Action

OMA was invited to present testimony to the Oregon House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee.
Here's the video of OMA Legislative Director Rich Angstrom's presentation. 11/19/15
https://www.facebook.com/OregonMiningAssociation/videos/1122834304406837/

 

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[M.E.G.]

Jog,

All I did was investigate what happened because what I hear you saying didn't match anything I've ever seen happen.
As I stated, I thought what you were saying was disingenuous. I still do, more so. It's not right what you said.
Despite that, the only "attitude" I may have had was looking for a resolution for you, if there was some sort of communication breakdown, because I've never seen that happen before and I've never seen the guys not help someone who took responsibility.

What I have seen is miners who won't do as they should but will complain they were done wrong some how.

As it was told to me, and the guys are dismayed at your posturing, all you had left to do was send back the document for review, if you thought you needed the oversight beyond your research.

So, You either did this or you didn't. The commissioners heard your highway presentation after your research or they didn't.

Sounds like none of that happened. I don't need to know more.
As I said before, I've done what I can do to understand the problem, and offer a resolution.
Sorry that wasn't enough help for you.

 

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[Hefty1]

"I do support JMD. This is because I've seen how when miners do things correctly, doing things themselves, not relying on the so-called "experts", the result is completely different, successful. Matters don't end up in the court and miners continue to work."

"Because the prime obligation miners have in accepting the grant and property is to defend it from trespass, they are not in the luxury to let any one else handle it no matter how distasteful and troublesome this may be."

I also support JMD.......and can not agree more with the statements made above by MEG.

Without their support and the direction given, and my due diligence of the laws and regs that are out there. I would not be working my property.

Mark H.

 

[fowledup]

M.E.G, If you've ever read any of my posts concerning my thoughts on Mining Districts, or my opinion of MMAC I believe you'd find our thoughts much aligned. I've just come to realize that based on what we are seeing we have a new reality now compared to when the concept of Mining Districts came about. And maybe we need to start looking at other ways we can make this work. The vast majority of claim holders today are no longer full time miners who live, eat, breath, and sleep mining. Few of us are totally dependent on the success of our mining endeavors. Many of us share the dream that someday we will be able to mine fulltime, but completing some task or milestone first stands in our way. We all keep addressing the questions of what needs to be done, over and over. What we are not spending enough time on is how we do it based on the realities of what we face today. The questions and debate we should all be addressing is how do we get the mining districts up and running to take their rightful place at the table. How do we get people involved? So far we have been unable to fill the positions or enact the charters that have the power to enforce and protect our rights. How do we work around and deal with a constituency made up of folks who don't have the time or may not possess the will or skills to learn the required subject matter needed to be effective? You made mention that it could be said that "those who would give away their property to a stranger to protect, are not actually worthy of that property". Our modern day problem is if we held claim holders to that standard we would have very few claim holders in no time at all, it's simply not how the world turns today. Everybody to some extent has someone else they rely on to help them fulfill their obligations and responsiblilites- accountants, realtors, financial planners, doctors, mechanics, etc. The beauty of that is that we have the ability to pick thru them and find those we may trust, who possess the proper skills and experience. People who we feel would represent or serve us better than we can represent ourselves. That is not a plug for outside representation. It's a question of how we might look at other ways that fulfill our obligations legally and address our current dilema. The current system ain't working, the suggested paths some are persuing now won't work, so what to do.

 

[M.E.G.]

fowledup,

It is because of the "new reality" that Jefferson Mining District finds its contemporary purpose under the traditional need. When people begin to understand this, then they might begin to see what's going on.

Jefferson Mining District is established to organize miners actions comprehensively to protect themselves and their property, essentially upon 3 general points, to be expanded or adjusted as needed.

1) Because of the "new reality", to stand in the gap using Coordination to stop present and future agency encroachments, and in the meantime working with local government to use coordination to take on its obligations and duties to protect property owners. [Understanding Coordination is what allows JMD to identify MMAC and OMA as defective "solutions". In light of the example of JMD doing things right in law, why did MMAC deny that example and the law and do it wrong? Ego? Ignorance? Deception?]

2) Finding out what it takes for a miner to properly deal with the agencies to stop the harm Gov employees have been causing until now to allow miners to take more correct action. [No body can take the place of this which remains in the miner]

3) Actively working to present the law to Gov Officials to remind them of their obligations and duties under the law.

The alteration to this is that once we got involved in implementation of 1, 2,& 3, we identified the bulk of the systemic problem in Gov which appears to defeat us at every turn, which JMD and two grantees sued to enjoin.

I should add the systemic Gov problem defeats those agreeing with it or with the specialists/attorneys who are essentially part of the problem. And we found this is generally addressed where the miners started stepping up on their own to properly respond to the wrongful agencies demands. For instance, instead of listening to the agencies, and attorneys, and ex government officials or employees and filing the 3809 POO requested, once a miner understands the simple response pointing out the rule invalidity, there is no POO or bond to file and the agency has no further authority. No specialist is needed. There isn't even anything any mining district needs to do in this regard. The law is fulfilled. Why wouldn't someone rather do that then take a wrong filing to court and defend an indefensible position?

So if you are telling me the miners are intent to excuse away there obligations, then as property owners they are done. More importantly, there is no further debate, if there ever actually were any. They will either be forced out or it will become extremely expensive as the specialists and agencies incrementally compromises the claim and the law and their pocket book.

" Many of us share the dream that someday we will be able to mine fulltime"
The dream is irrelevant to the law which requires discovery. Beyond that there is no requirement to work more than to maintain the claim. That doesn't stop the encroachment upon the property or upon the appurtenant rights by gov employees, opportunists, specialists, common variety trespassers, or other con-men, etc.

"We all keep addressing the questions of what needs to be done"
For those of us at JMD there is no question. We observed what wasn't working, and decided to take action on what appeared the law required would work better. And as long as you understand that we miners are up against criminals in government, no opinion, real criminals, I believe I can fairly say the strategies work very well to check the unbridled abuses. Certainly there is a lot more work to do, but when you see what's going on different than before with JMD presence, its unmistakable that miners can do better for themselves than any MMAC, OMA, or attorneys. And the more miners get involved to bring accountability, the faster things will be cleaned up.

"how do we get the mining districts up and running to take their rightful place at the table"
JMD is already "at the table". That's the first example for how. And I believe there is an open offer of help to get miners to understand how to properly proceed to do that for themselves whether with or if not with JMD.

People have to look at what is going on, what the law requires, how to properly apply it, understand the dire condition, and work despite the evasions of the government to check their excesses. Sounds like a lot, but once you get the foundation under your belt, it's not that difficult.

"How do we get people involved?"
This is probably your best question because I don't have that answer. I can't dictate to any other property owner what to do with their property. Other than that miners need to take responsibility and they'll start to see what needs to be done, I don't know what initiates that involvement. People need to get involved. That's about all I've been working to see happen.

How did I get involved? I resolved to stop taking what was being dished out by the government. Whether that is enough for other people remains to be seen. Seemed to work for me. Just not going to take it any longer. No excuses.

If the miner is too lazy or mining is not a priority, I'm not sure what the debate is. Nothing will happen if miners each don't step up independently, in the least, and better, work together, cut out the schoolyard mentality, roll up ourselves and get to work on our problem with the government and it employees, its agents, legal entities, such as MMAC, OMA, and specialists, such as the attorneys.

Maybe one day we'll have competent specialists for or needs but not today. And it isn't likely in the near future. You know, Judge Lindley foretold of our problem today? No attorneys or judges that knew mining law. That;s us today. No competent representation in the law. Then we/JMD comes along today and find out the judges and lawyers are felons in office; That isn't mere opinion. It's proved by perfected default judgment, JMD v. Kitzhaber 2013. Kitzhaber is no longer in office is he? And on the subject matter of the suit. Coincidence?

So we have to roll our sleeves up high. We have some house cleaning to do if we are to meet the customs and traditions of miners to protect themselves, “In some districts lawyers were, by these laws, forbidden to reside or practice”? – Mining Rights In the Western States and Territories, 1903. http://www.jeffersonminingdistrict.com/mining-law/Miningrightsinthewesternstatesandterritories.pdf
OMA is a bunch of attorneys of provable bad intention for miners. Nothing has changed today. But it's going to take more than apathetic miners making excuses to fix this. Many hands make light work we're told. The point is on the work. Apathy and excuse won't cut it.

The adage "Build it and they will come", certainly hasn't applied to Jefferson Mining District in the norm. Despite this, JMD is proving to be more effective than anything else available. But people looking for the wrong thing don't see much happening. That should tell you something. But what is JMD any more than the miners who comprise it; Dogged, don't given 'em a miner's inch persistence.

It would be great to be able to rely on a specialist. But as I have said, and they can tell themselves lies if the want I suppose, but once people realize the grantee has no such advocate that can be trusted, it remains to them to defend their property. If that means there would be a lot less claims, then what is the true strait of mining? Is everyone committing fraud or agreeing to be abused and to pay for the privilege?

Having a question about what to do where you see some paths are not working, if the miners have not tried the successful paths blazed by JMD why do you continue to ask the question? IF the suggestion to just follow the law isn't enough what's the question, actually? I really don't see any other viable path than as developed by JMD.

Those at JMD stopped accepting the lawless impositions. JMD has identified the systemic Gov problem. It's pretty impressive what we are up against. But it can be defeated with relative ease. The miners at JMD are making a difference. And that doesn't change because people ignore, discount or deny the fact. The JMD miners are not tolerating the agency abuse by more properly addressing wrongful agency impositions. All these accomplishments are essentially ignored for reasons I haven't figured out. I think learning how to successfully address matters or the condition in which those matters exist is at least a start. JMD seems to be the only one with a pulse on this.

I suspect if we were to get a bunch of miners doing what needed to be done, it would overwhelm the system to the point those in government might just figure it's better to follow the law than to be caught violating it to get us to go away.

And I'm dumbfounded why more miners don't participate and would rather bemoan their plight, think throwing money at some stranger will help them, compromising and getting permits they don't need, or worse, attacking the messengers explaining their folly or encouraging a better path.

What to do?
Join forces with those at Jefferson Mining District or learn what JMD does, why, and how, and replicate that. It's all there to be read in the law. This is not a secret. All it takes is initiative and perseverance.

Those without the will need not apply. JMD can't solve slothfulness or excuse unto paralysis. If this is in fact the real cause, then what really is the debate?

 

[2cmorau]

both these individual swore an oath to the state, to uphold the law, that would be all laws
quoting law is not a form letter, so how about some details from JMD short and to the point, for these two AG are/well i know the first is violating the law, don't know squat about the second
and lets not stop there,let also inform our county BOS
something for the reps that defend the miner to understand
suspect they are as clueless to the grantors grantee right as i am , being a graduate of the hilbilly redneck get-ur-done academy of common sense


https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/346/text is JMD even concern with this?


State of California - Department of Justice - Kamala D. Harris Attorney General Contact Us | State of California - Department of Justice - Kamala D. Harris Attorney General

Oregon Department of Justice - Homepage

personally, i am getting a bit sick and tired of we small miners have rights, but we still are not dredging, even with our waterrights , and paying a property tax toboot onn the claims, gets a bit old

 

[fowledup]

The necessity of mining districts is a national not regional problem. I am aware of what the JMD is about, I consistently study, reference, and use the material availible on the website, I also believe it to be a great model of how we should all be operating our own districts. I'm not debating anything about them or shopping for the JMD to act as my district. I've put out feelers in an effort to spark interest for a district in our area. Got one good response and he just replied to this thread. So if the only legal option I have is to be become a part of the JMD I'll have no problem with that personally, but that is not the intent of how the system is supposed to work. IDK- you tell me, do you think the JMD wants to or is in a position to act as 'the' mining district nationwide? I don't, so going beyond all the good JMD is doing on our behalf, and how it is all supposed to work and what we need to do. We still have that basic fundamental question of how do you get people to get involved, all else is for discussion once we get the districts going.

Folks seem all fired up to introduce and subject themselves to new legislation or amended mining law. How many would support a legal requirement that would require membership or mandatory involvement in your local mining district in order to hold a mining claim? It can be a requirement as part of your annual claim maintenance. No different than I have as a condition of continued employment at my other job. By state law I'm required to maintain any and all applicable licenses and certifications, as well as continue pdating and furthering my training and knowledge of the pertinent Codes and regulations by way of attending a minimum of 40 hrs annual refresher training. If we were all doing our parts of what is already required we wouldn't have lawyers and associations with questionable motives trying to speak for and govern us.

It seems that if folks aren't mandated by law they won't do what's required. So is this the direction we need to go to save ourselves in the long run? My biggest fear based on what I see everyday is people will let it all go bye bye and just move on to the next thing that interests them because it's easier than doing the work to save what they already have. We are at the point where we can't afford to overlook or work around the current complacent attitude.

 

[M.E.G.]

fowledup

JMD could have been a national district, but it was thought by the Assembly establishing the district to make it smaller would allow other miners the opportunity to make their own. The district was enlarged once due to miners requesting the Assembly do so to encompass their area. We realized pretty quickly by this, with the “new reality”, if miners weren't going to step up in sufficient numbers, a national district wasn't viable and would be as useless as every other Association. And if they did step up in sufficient numbers a national district is made irrelevant. It isn't a fiction that the mining districts are driven by the miners at all times. This isn't some board making decisions on what the organization will do next FOR its members. It's the miners making the decisions on the best way to help their own projects related to addressing the "new reality" and how it affect their property.

As you can see here in the forum, distance is a problem for those needing to make a meeting, though the design of the district, being driven by a miners self-determined projects local to him, is such that attending is not necessary. And it was planned that we might use various technologies to make the meetings accessible but the numbers of participants have not warranted further work on that project.

So let me give you a for instance to maybe explain better this involvement which eliminates further question. Miners in eastern Oregon were concerned about the Greater Sage Grouse problem that was said to be threatening their mining claims. So they brought their concern to JMD and the Assembly set a plan through Coordination to address the Gov's intention to list the bird. The miners go to work gathering evidence, studying the process for compliance, filing their findings formally using the authority of the mining district showing fraud being committed by the Agency. Also Coordinating the findings with the county commissioners as well to inform that government of its duty and obligation to stop the listing. Subsequently, the Sage Grouse listing has run into a problem. That was national news. Same with the Wolf listing in Oregon, but for a different reason in law.

These sorts of things didn't happen before miners took it on themselves to deal with the "New Reality" working to steal our property. The Sage Grouse result had a national effect.
This shows smaller districts, even one as large yet sub-national as Jefferson Mining District focusing on local attacks from the "new reality" can also affect matters nationally. The important point is, at last for our current understanding on the dynamic of dealing with the "new reality", it took miners deciding to get involved and to dedicate the time it took to defeat that. The defeat required miners, boots on the ground, not a bureaucracy.

Now while that is going on others miners have stepped up and are committed and working to stop the Method used by those forcing the "new reality" so that the Sage Grouse type issues don't become a recurring attack. Interestingly, MMAC and OMA are part of that Method, the evil side of Coordination, as it were. The only input from those organizations is to the agency or state interest. You can hear than in the OMA Legislative Video. The attorney admits it right there. It doesn't matter that these Organizations tell you differently. You can also read the fact as to an Association's impotence for yourself in the Western BLM RMP regarding the Association of Oregon Counties. Even an Association for all the counties [paralleling a national association at the state level] was not powerful enough. In fact this relationship worked against the counties. The “new reality” requires, additional to knowing the mining law correctly applied, we understand the “new reality” itself. It requires the governments themselves to act properly. In this regard, the mining district is its Assembly and acts through the participation of each miner, not the recorder or the elected official.

If you have even two miners that can work well together, you can become a big impediment to agency plans. Let's say there are road closures going on and you want to stop them. Even two miners can do a lot to stop that. But it takes the miners to be there involved. You can look at PLP as the FAFA in Oregon, where JMD Coordinators work with that group to help them address the county on road matters. This has been very effective as well. And all this is much more cost effective. As FAFA does, Why doesn't PLP have its members work with the counties using the county government's coordinating power, instead of something harmful such as MMAC? That would also fit PLP's mission better, wouldn't?

Until miners start pushing back appropriately, not getting involved directly in some way is defeat. Not getting involved will also make the road for those currently involved to stop the nonsense a lot longer.

"Folks seem all fired up to introduce and subject themselves to new legislation or amended mining law"
How is it people who don't actually understand the mining law think they can make it better? And you are correct, What right-thinking people would make more subjection up themselves unless through shear ignorance. Otherwise, this is lunacy.

"require membership or mandatory involvement in your local mining district in order to hold a mining claim"

Be careful on your suggestions for requiring participation in a mining district. Not even mining districts can require membership. The courts have long-since ruled on this. You are wrongly commingling the mineral estate classes as well. You are also mischaracterizing an estate with your job or a commercial activity or some other administrative entanglement not applicable to the mineral estate. To require association, as well as being contrary to the express terms and purpose of the General Mining Law is as well violating the First Amendment as to association. Remember you are dealing with a grant already made, not some regulatory or commercial subject matter. A Job is a master-servant relationship. Mineral estate possession isn't even in the same jurisdiction, let alone of similar description.

"If we were all doing our parts of what is already required we wouldn't have lawyers and associations with questionable motives trying to speak for and govern us."

Given the prior example of the inapplicability of the 3809 rule and our rightful non-compliance with that and other unlawful agency impositions, I would agree with you. The miners doing what they are actually supposed to do rather than what they are told they have to do would go a long way to show MMAC and OMA are not needed.

"We are at the point where we can't afford to overlook or work around the current complacent attitude."
The Ranchers are the example of what happens to those with complacent attitudes. Then you get a Bundy. The Last One. Just like it will be for the miners, down to the last ones that know. And Bundy is doing a lot wrong and also doesn't know how to begin to address the "new reality". The government, as well, additionally takes advantage to the limit it can get away with it, witness the Hammonds.

Miners are quickly coming to the same day, reference Sugar Pine. The miners did it improperly there too. And they didn't accept the help that was offered to them that has resolved that issue many times before as explained prior with the 3809 discussions and without resort to the help of the Oathkeepers. Similar the administrative errors for Rhinehart. What a mess that has become. And then there is the Consolidated California cases. Why are there still defendants in those cases where Ochoa TWICE confirmed federal pre-emption? Answer: What are the common denominators in these cases? Answer that and maybe things will become clearer. Answer that and you might understand what you as an independent miner needs to do and why JMD does what it does the way it does.

So the "workaround", or how you save yourself, is to go back to the law most miners are apathetic to and waiting for someone else to do things for them. You have questions, but the mining law is not a question. Miners live by the existing grant in law, whether they accept that responsibility or not; And if not, they are fodder to a system bent on their destruction because we were not vigilant to stop the “new reality”, someone else promised to do that for us.

 

[Clay Diggins]

National Mining District? WTF?

I thought trying to include miners in three states was stupid. Doesn't anyone there have a clue what a mining district is for?

What's next? The fire district from Iowa is going to show up here in Arizona with their hand out insisting I owe them taxes?

HHFFOP* Join Today!

By the way is anyone else watching the Weaver Mining District crumble and take down +- 800 acres of pre 1955 claims with it? There's your example of how a mining district based on area instead of miners is going to end up.

For those of you who really care about the future of small miners in this country I suggest reading Early Records of Gilpin County, Colorado; 1859-1861 - Mining Districts In the Land Matters Law Library. Learn what a mining district is for and how they work before you try to reinvent miner's self governance.

Educate Yourself and Prosper uh... good luck with that other plan.

*Heavy Handed Folks From Other Places Mucking About Where They Don't Belong

 

[M.E.G.]

2cmorau:


" https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/346/text is JMD even concern with this? "

I believe the question is misplaced. What is your concern and what have you done about that?


But to answer your question:

Yes, It is my understanding JMD issued a coordination response to set standing which has been filed on the administrative side of the withdrawal for the purpose of the legislation showing the process and the need is fraudulent, that the authors and sponsors of the bill are commiting fiduciary breach, as well as colluding cross-branch of government in violation of the Constitutions. . . . and more. Ron Gibson the interim chairman of JMD also attended the farcical public comment meeting to give notice the process was unlawful to make that record as well.

So if you are interested to help, Contact JMD and with your written committment to participate. You can be provided the work done to date so you can get involved in stopping that legislation. JMD was able to stop the first attempt in the Chetco legislation a couple years ago. Help is needed to cover this larger legislative theft as well.

"so how about some details from JMD short and to the point, for these two AG are/well i know the first is violating the law, don't know squat about the second"

Short and to the point was already posted a number of times.
See JMD v. Kitzhaber, 2013.

The State AG's are BAR ASS., members.
See the parties to JMD v. Kitzhaber, 2013. One of the parties look familiar? Do you understand part the problem now? Do miners want to support the perfected default judgment or contiune to question what needs to be done?


" personally, i am getting a bit sick and tired of we small miners have rights, but we still are not dredging, even with our waterrights , "

Let's get something straight first: The courts tell us and experience proves this out, You only have the rights YOU properly assert. There is no "we" where your independent property and rights are concerned. And there is no body that can do it for you as claimed by MMAC.

What have you done for yourself lately?
What have you done to properly assert those rights yourself?
Who is committing felony theft by extortion and conversion against your property and rights and when was the criminal complaint filed?

Why do you think what you do is "dredging" when the law shows that's not what you do?

"let also inform our county BOS"
Yes we need to inform the BOS or any government officer or employee.
Almost all government officials are ignorant of the mining law. Sadly as ignorant of most of the miners. On the other hand some in Gov in the "new reality" do know, at least enough to thwart the property without many finding this out. So as I stated prior, one of the objectives required of us is to educate those charged with protecting us with their fiduciary obligations and duties in law and to have them actually do so.

Do you know enough to do that? Knowing this is needed, Do you educate your BOS? And if you do not, then why not? Why haven't you educated yourself to do that if that's what you see needs to be done?

The answer isn't really that difficult, actually.
The more I read these posts, the more I see the ongoing questions are just another excuse not to do what is known to be needed to be done.

get-ur-done?

 

[fowledup]

First- I'm not suggesting or proposing anything, I'm putting questions out there for discussion in an attempt to solve the biggest and most basic problem we have. Which again is: How do we get miners involved in fulfilling their obligations. As I was told growing up and I've continued by telling my kids and grandkids. You can't be mad or bi--h about someone else doing for you what your not willing to do yourself.

Second- M.E.G.- your quote "The more I read these posts, the more I see the ongoing questions are just another excuse not to do what is known to be needed to be done." Really? Is this suppose to motivate us? We are here asking questions trying to have a dialogue. We are frustrated too, we are also willing and wanting to be involved and help find a solution. In all honesty 2c and I have claims that we could just as easy be quiet stick to ourselves and do our own thing regardless of what happens to everyone else. So please, give us a break, we see a bigger picture.

Third- Barry, I'm about half way thru the Gilpin County Records you linked (thank you) it's an excellent read and does indeed show exactly how a mining district of the time succesfully functioned. Or at least it has so far, hope that doesn't change before I finish it. The difference I see is they were able to focus on the needs of the miners without outside interference. Meaning what they were doing was not being screwed with by the government, the districts were self governing bodies that the government of the time respected. Our problems today aren't grievences between miners, ours is a convoluted array of government agencies that refuses to acknowledge or follow the laws of this country as they pertain to miners.

MEG you keep going back to the premise that its the miners responsibility and we should know and it's our fault if we don't. Although I agree in theory it's just not a realistic expectation. Because a person owns property does not mean they should know all things concerning property and property ownership. Thank God they don't or myself and many others would have been out of a job years ago.

Without representation or authority of some sort we will continue to let our rights get trampled down. The average miner can't, or won't take on any aggression toward their rights because they either don't have the time, skill set, or money to do so, some just flat don't want the hassle. How many miners know they can technically do something on their claim but simply don't because they don't want to risk it. Is any of this right? Nope, but it is our reality. It is our responsiblility to represent ourselves- it's not happening so again, before it's too late and with the full understanding of what the fix is and how it works, how do we get there?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Third- Barry, I'm about half way thru the Gilpin County Records you linked (thank you) it's an excellent read and does indeed show exactly how a mining district of the time succesfully functioned. Or at least it has so far, hope that doesn't change before I finish it. The difference I see is they were able to focus on the needs of the miners without outside interference. Meaning what they were doing was not being screwed with by the government, the districts were self governing bodies that the government of the time respected. Our problems today aren't grievences between miners, ours is a convoluted array of government agencies that refuses to acknowledge or follow the laws of this country as they pertain to miners.

I'm glad you are finding that resource useful fowledup!

I think you are very mistaken when you presume those early districts weren't "screwed with by the government". The reason I pointed you to districts formed before the Mining Acts were passed was so you could see how miners of the time overcame extreme resistance to their claims - by the government and the courts.

The Mining Acts were written as a capitulation to the power of the miners on the ground. The previous status quo had been based entirely on the common law principle of pedis possessio. The more popular modern version of that ancient concept would be "come and take it if you can".

Indeed the superior right of the men who actually survived to keep the land theirs was recognized in the very first Mining Act of 1865.
Here is the whole 1865 Mining Act:

That no possessory action between individuals in any of the courts of the United States for the recovery of any mining title, or for damages to any such title, shall be affected by the fact that the paramount title to the land on which such mines are, is in the United States, but each case shall be adjudged by the law of possession.

The miners had won big and continued to win against all who opposed them because of the strength of miners in a common cause - a mining district based on the common nature of the geographic and mineralogical qualities of a mineralized area. Not an imaginary line around a three state area but a Union of Miners in a common struggle, men who knew each other personally and took control of a single mineralized area. Gilpin County is one of the smallest Counties in the Western States (150 square miles) but it had 19 Mining Districts (Less than 8 square miles per district average) before any of the Mining Acts were passed.

Eventually, after several efforts to limit the mining districts power, Congress gave the miners virtually unlimited power to control mining and miners within their district. That power still exists today thanks to the huge efforts of American miners to enforce their right to the minerals they discovered. Those Mining Acts were based on and nearly entirely copied from the mining district bylaws of Colorado and California. It's not a coincidence that much of what you read in the Gilpin district records is reflected in the Mining Acts passed nearly a decade later by Congress.

The problem from an historical point of view is that modern miners don't support one another when and where they are mining but instead look for a central organization to do their fighting, and thinking, for them. They believe there is legal strength in numbers while ignoring the fact that it has always been a small group of men protecting their individual grants that succeed against intrusion on our mining rights.

Take a lesson from the past - no take all your lessons from the past. Success in mining self governance has never come from a large organization. Individual rights are at stake here. There is no collective legal right to mine the public lands. Those that would try to sell you on the idea that they can represent your interests in relation to locatable minerals have no concept of the law or the history of mining. It really does come down to you and the people you know for a fact you can trust, that is the practical extent of any effective mining district.

I've stayed out of commenting on the Jefferson Mining District fiasco or any of the other many groups in Oregon or California that pretend to represent miners. I have the belief that miners should control their lands and their fates without direct involvement from those not affected by their decisions - including me. But I will speak up every time those same miner's organizations pretend they represent me or believe they can change the law to my benefit.

When the subject of National Mining Districts is brought up I see only the enemy. Any miner or group of miners who pretends to speak for all miners doesn't have a clue about the history or functioning of the mining laws. For now I will treat that enemy as ignorant of the facts of our history and status because I have the tools and knowledge to educate them. If that doesn't change their minds well - "come and take it if you can" - just remember the odds are entirely against your succeeding. Miners are historically a very tough opponent.

Heavy Pans

 

[M.E.G.]

Motivate? : Now I'm suppose to be the Tony Robbins of mining. Your advise to your kids and grand-kids is sound. So where does that leave the miners who do not heed this sound advise? And are we supposed to be paralyzed until more get involved?

I don't think I discredit you both in any way to question the questions. I am sincerely encouraged with your input. My problem with the questions is, we can ask them until we are blue in the face or we can decide to do something about the problems we can find. I believe I have detailed quite a number which are at the heart of the problem the miners face.

So 2c brings up a big issue, but curiously, almost more as a challenge to JMD. Then I explain, in fact, JMD is already involved and doing what it can to stop it. What is there more to question? We either deal with that, or we ask more questions about it.

What's going to get-ur-done? More questions? Did anyone say, HEY!, I'll Help? I suppose this observation isn't very motivational either. Want to get-ur-done? Say, “I'll Help” . . . “and right here.”

We can keep jumping from topic to topic or we can draw the line.

When do those of us that still care enough, that we didn't just go back into the hills, get together and try to be that difference, despite those that won't involve themselves. Because this isn't just about us. It's about those little ones you gave advice to.

Talk about the Big Picture. I don't believe people truly understand what is actually at stake. Because if they cared and they did understand they would stop asking questions, they would identify the adversary, they would identify the things that haven't work, and look for those things that do taking action. We are faced with a house-a-fire. What we gonna do? Race to put the fire out or fight over who controls the pumper. [<< really happened]

That's the only difference those at JMD have done. They stopped asking questions and started taking action. That isn't stopping any one else from doing the same. They can follow the JMD example or find their own bucket of water. But at all cost, the fire must be put out.

"Without representation or authority of some sort we will continue to let our rights get trampled down"

If referring to people external to ourselves, this is absolutely false. I think I have provided plenty of evidence to support how property is properly protected in the thread. Your reality is what you are making it. What the miner won't do, no one can change. What he will do CORRECTLY changes everything.

The Gilpin record is only one of hundreds that can be referred to. What you astutely observe as the difference in the mining districts of old is the adjustment that the mining districts today must meet with the external threat we face today. Until people understand that threat there is no foundation from which to form an opinion or criticize upon how a mining district should function today. Especially, with the evidence showing to the contrary of every criticism, evidencing an ignorance of the subject matter.

We either decide to put out the fire or we lose the house and everyone in it.

The only remaining question I can see here that a miner has to decide, What part are you taking responsibility for in putting the fire out?

 

[fowledup]

As usual I now have more questions than answers, and it appears I got to finish my reading. I thank you both for your input, shame we can't find more common ground amongst us with our ideas and approaches.

 

[M.E.G.]

Where is your proof of this Clay, that Jefferson Mining District is a fiasco?
"I've stayed out of commenting on the Jefferson Mining District fiasco".

It's very clear from your posts, you support corporate mining organizations whose intention and fact of harm to independent miners was clearly proven when one of those now known as American Exploration & Mining Association, yet another national association claiming to represent all miners, used its attorney to lobby the 2013 Oregon legislature for a sweet-heart deal which threw independent miners under the bus in preference to the Calico operation, all mentioned in the OMA introduction hearing admitting to the fact.

JMD exposed this and other corruption in that legislative session. You apparently agree with this corruption against independent miners when you support these types of organization.

It's no wonder you do not appreciate Jefferson Mining District for exposing this very corruption harming us.

 

[Hefty1]

 

[ratled]

We are faced with a house-a-fire. What we gonna do? Race to put the fire out or fight over who controls the pumper. [<< really happened]
But at all cost, the fire must be put out.

We either decide to put out the fire or we lose the house and everyone in it.

The only remaining question I can see here that a miner has to decide, What part are you taking responsibility for in putting the fire out?

I shortened MEGs post down to the real issue. The opposition reads this and other boards daily. The in fighting, descent among miners, etc only fuels their efforts as we tear ourselves a part with no more effort on their part. I am not taking sides in this or any of the "hot topics" I am just pointing out that these kinds of issues do not serve anyone in a positive way when aired on public forums

ratled

 

[Clay Diggins]

Hmmm

Let's see:

Northwest Mining Association

People v Rhinehart

Eno v. Salazar, BLM

New 49’ers v Karuk Tribe

El Paso Gold Mine v Sierra Club

Yount v. Jewell

Northwest Mining Association v. Salazar

Northwest Mining Association v. Babbitt, BLM

American Exploration & Mining Association v. Salazar

American Exploration & Mining Association v EPA

AND

A few hundred more over the last 120 years.

That's just a sampling of what they have done for miners in the last 15 years. I'm pretty sure you know at least one of those people on the list MEG and I'm also sure you know several of them are small independent miners.

Now

Jefferson Mining District







AND



Neither the Northwest Mining Association or myself favor corporate mining over independent miners. That should be obvious from the list above as well as my own very public efforts to educate and empower all miners. Trying to make that an issue is ignoring the facts to support your cause.

Next time you decide to attack the messenger instead of responding to the issues I'll make sure you have a much bigger list MEG. There's lots to add to that one. I donate most of my free time presenting the facts so people can make educated decisions for themselves. It's the facts that matter, not the wishes, dreams and good intentions. Good intentions, more members or popularity won't get you mining.

The point here is the Jefferson Mining District has done squat for the miners in it's district because they don't have a clue who it is they are representing. The mining world is not entirely composed of small gold mines. In the area "represented" by JMD there are more non gold miners than gold miners. Ask JMD who those miners are or what they need and they don't have a clue.

You complain that a miner's support organization like Northwest Mining Association also supports miners that mine more than you. What is the problem with that? There are about 250,000 people that mine more than you. What's the JMD plan for including those miners?

There is no difference under the law between an independent miner and a large miner. All miners will hang together or hang alone. Creating a false wall between small miners and large miners just cuts small miners off from their biggest support base and ensures they will hang first. Making large mining companies out to be the enemy is about as effective as cutting your throat to get sympathy from that girl that won't date you. You just look pathetic while you are bleeding to death.

Trying to tear down the efforts of an old and effective organization like Northwest Mining Association to make the JMD seem more effective than it is just isn't going to fly with any miners paying attention. The Northwest Mining Association has done more for small miners in those 120 years than all the California/Oregon organizations ever will.

Mining districts can have a powerful and important role in miners self governance. Their legal role is not to tell miners from on high how they should act and believe. Self governance in mining is just that - it's all about mining. Trying to tie a huge unwieldy "district" like JMD to state and federal level governance outside of mining customs and practices shows a lack of understanding of the real power and effectiveness of mining districts.

It's time to educate all miners. There is no reason large mining companies shouldn't be made fully aware of the problems facing independent miners, you would be surprised at how interested they are. Educated miners can make their own decisions about how they want to govern themselves. Give them facts they can rely on instead of theories that have consistently lost in the courts. Miners don't need more paperwork and legal funds they need wins. Like those wins the Northwest Mining Association has been bringing to mining for 120 years.

The fact of the matter is mining would be virtually impossible without wins like Northwest Mining Association v. Babbitt, BLM. A smart miner would be putting his faith in those who have a long track record of success. Then they might choose to form a local mining district among themselves to self govern their mining instead of maybe noticing on the internet that some group already claims to have their mines in their "district".

I hope JMD can come around and become an asset to all miners. I know there are some good intelligent people associated with the JMD. Drop the ridiculous "district" size and the "you must do it this way" attitude and I'd be happy to support JMD's efforts to educate and support miners.

It's past time to form some real mining districts. That's up to miners to do in their local mining area. Not an organization that claims to include 4 states and "all miners, farmers, timber workers and others who make their living from the land". No mining district in history has succeeded in self governance at that size. Trying to reinvent the wheel when we have a long history of success with mining districts in their traditional form is wasteful and ineffective.

"Representing miners" and "self governing miners" are two entirely different concepts. I think JMD needs to choose which they are. As a representative organization they are no where near to being effective compared to groups like Northwest Mining Association. As a self governing district they fail due to size and intent. It's fixable but not as long as their public attitude is that members are not helping enough or not following the plan. Mining districts are by their very nature primarily responsive to the desires of their miner members. JMD doesn't fit that description. And that is the "fiasco" in a nutshell.

Heavy Pans

 

[goldenIrishman]

I've stayed out of this conversation and plan on staying out of it when it comes to JMD Vs NMA etc. I will however speak up on Clays' contributions to this forum since he joined up here. Clay has given everyone great advise on many different aspects of prospecting and mining and I've yet to find fault with any of that advice at any time. (Believe me when I say I've checked out many of the things he's told us here.) Without his help, many of us wouldn't have advanced as far or as quickly as we have and we as a group own him a great deal of thanks. Not only has he helped out many a member here, but his MyLandMatters.org site has provided all of us with a fantastic resource that has only gotten better since it went on-line. Near as I can tell, Clays' only goal is to see all of us prosper in our mining endeavors and learn how to use the system to our advantage. I for one think that we need more folks like Clay hanging out here as well as in other aspects of our lives.

 

[Hefty1]

Seems quite large to me...



Mission Statement


WHO WE ARE AND OUR MISSION

WHO WE ARE
American Exploration & Mining Association (formerly known as the Northwest Mining Association until 2013) is a 120 year-old, 2,500 member non-profit, non-partisan trade association based in Spokane, Washington. AEMA is a national association representing the hardrock mining industry with members residing in 42 U.S. states, 6 Canadian provinces or territories, and 9 other countries.
AEMA represents the entire mining life cycle, from exploration to reclamation and closure, and is the national voice for exploration, the junior mining sector and maintaining access to public lands. AEMA also serves in the role of the state mining association for Oregon and for Washington State. We work closely with the National Mining Association, state mining associations in the western U.S., as well as provincial and regional mining associations throughout Canada to advance our members’ interests.
AEMA is recognized as an innovative and proactive leader in addressing the needs of an increasingly global mining industry. Working in concert with other industry associations, AEMA has a proven track record in successfully influencing the outcome of political dialogue, building effective working strategies with key elected and agency officials, and developing and coordinating industry’s response to legislative and regulatory issues. We also are a leader in building coalitions with other groups representing natural resource producers and people interested in the multiple-use of public lands, and in generating grassroots support.
We are governed by a thirty member Board of Trustees who serve staggered three-year terms. Nine Trustees are elected each year by the membership. The volunteer officers of the Association are selected annually by the Trustees. The day-to-day affairs of the Association are managed by a paid, professional staff headed by the Association’s Executive Director.
OUR MISSION
The purpose of the Association is to advocate for and advance the mineral resource and related industries, to represent and inform members on legislative, regulatory, safety and technical issues; to educate legislators and their staffs, federal and state agencies, and the public on the importance of, and the policies necessary to a strong domestic mining industry, and to foster and promote economic opportunity and safe, environmentally and socially responsible mining.
The Association’s work on issues of concern to the membership is conducted through a number of standing and ad hoc committees, chaired by members who work closely with AEMA’s dedicated staff. Our success over the years is due to the dedication and commitment of such members who voluntarily serve on our committees. All members are encouraged to be actively involved in one or more committees.
The AEMA Annual Meeting and Exposition, held the first week of December, is a preeminent and the second largest annual mining convention in the U.S. Our convention consists of short courses, technical, legislative and policy sessions, and a 250 booth trade exposition. Our sessions emphasize mineral deposits, exploration and development, operations, business and finance, environmental technology, regulation and policy and legislative affairs. The meeting has been held every year since 1895, and attracts more than 2,500 attendees from all over the world.

 

[Hefty1]

https://www.miningamerica.org/

Lots of good reading..........should be sent all over.

Don't see anything about CA ?