New Group, Oregon Mining Association

[winners58]

New lobby for Oregon Miners, Oregon Mining Association
Dave Hunnicutt, Richard Angstrom, & Matt Ellsworth of AEMA
Oregon Mining Association | Promoting Oregon's Mining Industry
&
https://www.facebook.com/OregonMiningAssociation
mining groups that joined OCAPA will be moved over to the new group to focus on metal mining issues.

the other group that is going to fight for mining in Salem is;
Oregonians In Action

OMA was invited to present testimony to the Oregon House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee.
Here's the video of OMA Legislative Director Rich Angstrom's presentation. 11/19/15
https://www.facebook.com/OregonMiningAssociation/videos/1122834304406837/

 

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[Oakview2]

A welcome sight, high powered mining attorneys willing to challenge the state on their illegal moratorium.

 

[M.E.G.]

MMAC and now this aswell? Just in my review of the video, the people associated with this "new group", amoung other things, I find very troubling and of major concern. It's my hope winners58, you post this as a warning to miners, and not a promotion of OMA.

 

[winners58]

Its not really a new group just a new organizational tree, all of the major mining groups in Oregon have asked (except one I guess)
OCAPA and AEMA for help with lobbing efforts, there were 20 plus bills affecting mining in 2013 one made it through SB 838
and now we still have to fight this. Not a lot of people commented on SB 830 but it still got shut down, how do you think that happened?
I agree we don't need one group throwing another under the bus, but we need representation in the state capital.
To compare this to MMAC just offhand is contempt prior to investigation.

 

[Oakview2]

A gaggle of high powered miner friendly lawyers willing to take on federal preemption in Oregon does not sound like a bad thing too me.

 

[2cmorau]

winners58 thanks for the post, and very informative

MEG got any case's pending on behalf of the small scale miner in California or Or u know dredgers, miners that many claim have them Fed miners rights, that so many large scale mining companys help in the way of donations for the small miners rights.

this has been on the books for a few years look fimilier house pass and the senate voted down https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/1937

 

[rockbar]

This looks like a good thing for Oregon miners. I would love to have someone like Rich Angstrom in my corner.

 

[M.E.G.]

Their "mining" Bill that got through was a perversion of the one we asked to be made.

The rest that didn't pass were because we showed these same mining law idiots that what they were proposing were not valid under the mining law, and they didn't want to make the same mistake as they did with SB 838, 2013.

The one bill which got through, this year, the perversion of what we needed presented by Bentz, was to define Mining as a natural resource. To show you how devious and stupid these attorneys are, they don't even know the mineral estate isn't a natural resource, but they needed to define it that way to further control it under commerce and sustainability. Which subject matters it is not. As wrongly represented, by the BAR ASS. attorney, State Agent and Judicial Officer, Rich Angstrom, in the video testimony to the state legislature, Mining Law is not about land use, it isn't about jobs, and it isn't about economic development. But that's what these self-proclaimed mining representatives claim to be the subject matters of your only Voice. These thieves are going to advance the State's interests, not yours. Grow up folks. Take up your responsibility to protect yourself. The Attorney's can't do it, nor will they. Their BAR ASS. House of Delegates resolutions going back before 1991 declare they will defeat your property. The JMD v. Kitzhaber suit proved this as well in 2013, when the State and the BAR ASS failed to answer the complaint.

Instead of being cheerleaders for the BAR ASS., and the State, when you see the video and understand the language, you'll know these people don't intend to help grantees. The OMA is the MMAC in the state on Steroids. If you don't see this, you need to read more and understand how you are being duped. The attorney couldn't even get the Act of Congress correct. And for all you all that would say, well every one can misspeak. Yeah, but the Mining law isn't just the Act of 1877 that he mentioned or the 1872 he was required to state. The mining law is so much more and he couldn't even recite the proper acts of Congress he purports to protect the "non-aggregate" miners by. He didn't even get that correct!. That should be a big clue, if the admission that the miners get thrown under the bus at the Marble Nuthouse and everyone laughs, didn't give people a clue. Remember Jefferson Mining District was a Voice of the Law during the 2013 Session, and the legislature and the lawyers ignored it and were sued because of that dereliction and lost by default judgment.

And if all of you people would have been participating with Jefferson Mining District you would already know all this.

But you, instead, would rather allow the Attorney$ and A$$ociation$ to continue to mine the miners.

 

[jog]

I am a member of the JMD (supposidly), not once have I been contacted in regards to any issues regarding mining bills or laws being passed, not once have I been contacted for anything. I did contact the JMD in regards to an issue with the BLM, it appeared that I was getting some good help but then they just dropped the ball on me, when I made contact with a JMD member not long ago I was told to make some corrections. Haven't heard a word?
Why is it I don't here about the JMD doing this or doing that,why can't I find anything where it says or shows the JMD being involved. Just wondering?
Concerned miner.

 

[M.E.G.]

jog,

You know the Meeting Schedule is posted at Jefferson Mining District & South West Oregon Mining Association if you were interested to know more.

And as you have admitted, the people with JMD will give you good help.

And though those at JMD will help, despite going a long long way in the help provided, they won't hold your hand and take your steps.

Did you make the corrections requested of you?
Or as you indicate, Did you drop that ball as well and are blaming it someone else?

Your post sounds highly disingenuous.

 

[jog]

I did make the changes and sent them off,haven't heard a word. I don't want JMD to hold my hand but it would be nice to have a two way conversation with the person who is supposed to be helping. I have gone to the JMD Facebook page and found nothing there as well.

 

[jog]

If someone is told by somebody that they will do this and that without that person asking for this and that to be done and it doesn't get done then that's what I call dropping the ball.

 

[russau]

Man this needs more of my reading /understanding than what ive done so far! LOTS of research needed on my part! this probably will be comeing to ALL states eventually!!! I better "buck up"!!

 

[M.E.G.]

Jog,

Doing some checking I found out, to the best of their knowledge without more than the description of your complaints, you were working with two JMD people. I understand you did have conversations on the phone with at least one in Eastern Oregon a couple of times where one of your claims is. His contact number has not changed.
If it is true what I am told of who you are, I also saw the other helping you who spent more than a couple of hours face to face with you at the gold show at your booth after his seminar at your request to discuss your problems.

Being it sounds as if one of your problems was about access, you undoubtedly had to go to jeffersonminingdistrict.com to get that Highways and Trails document. So why you went to Facebook, I don't understand.

I'm also unsure why there is any complaint as to access to information, meetings, or more contacts to JMD being there are two more email addresses there to the Recorder and the Interim Chairman. Beyond this You know these guys will not advertise miner's private problems. So I don't know why you would expect to hear much of anything JMD does unless you were genuinely involved in something in particular with JMD.

I am also told you waited a very long time to get done what was explained at the seminar for you to do immediately.
Nevertheless, you were still helped despite that delay, and asked to do research and make corrections to prepare you for a second project you wanted to do to address some county commissioners in a different county.

These are not things JMD would knowingly drop any ball over. I've never seen that happen. But this seems a bit of a heavy obligation saying a ball was dropped. They offer help, not representation.
As far as I have heard or seen, you seem to be the only one experiencing this. And only because you complained here on an unrelated after and not the district directly.

What ever the reason there certainly seems to be a communication breakdown.
I'm sure there has been an email miss-delivery being I'm told they were waiting to receive one and with the prior delay had no reason to believe one was sent.

You should send what ever you had done again.

 

[2cmorau]

MEG, CLAY, HAL ANTONY,ans many others know their stuff , no question
but it does nothing for the miners, if the state has no respect for the law
clearly evident in the recent bill passed in California SB637, going against the decision of SCOTUS (soup and Ladle)


for decades special interest groups have infiltrated our government agency';s and change policy without regard to the states own bill of right or the constitution
whether they are appointed or voted in, it really doesn't matter anymore
the peoples vote in a manner of thier interest
just generalizing, their are exceptions, pot growers will vote for a democrat, union miners, loggers will vote for a democrat, public service will vote democrat, are the repubs anybetter, i will say this, they have been the only ones stepping up to the plate for miners and outdoor user groups


when all the outdoor user groups understand this, know what party is most likely to close off public lands and get their act together, only then will things change for the better


we miners, hunters, fishermen will be in the courts forever defending our rights
HR1937 is in a rewrite , how do we help make this better?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/346/text
To withdraw certain land located in Curry County and Josephine County, Oregon, from all forms of entry, appropriation, or disposal under the public land laws, location, entry, and patent under the mining laws, and operation under the mineral leasing and geothermal leasing laws, and for other purposes.

 

[jog]

MEG
I did work with someone in eastern Oregon, he was the one who told me to hold off and what got started never got finished. I did have a conversation with another at the gold show, I was told by that person that what happened shouldn't have happened. I was told to send the second person what I had so I did, I was told to make changes and I did send that off. Never heard back?
Come to find out the first guy had the second guy doing what I thought the first guy had done. The second guy didn't remember that he had done it. Let's just say it turned out to be very confusing and nothing got finished.
Living know where near where the JMD holds it's meetings if its on a website it's more than likely old news.
I checked into the Facebook page just to see what was there, found nothing.
Just saying that not everyone can get to the meetings.

 

[M.E.G.]

In tracking this down, it was found out, you didn't contact the BLM correctly or timely. Your lack of understanding on the highway laws required the additional research for you to properly address both the BLM and the county commissioners. That was what was finally ironed out at the gold show to be done based on all the information at the time.

After a period of silence on your part, two phone calls were made from Eastern Oregon which you failed to respond to. You were also in delay of a timely answer by then to the information given you at the gold show.

The two guys have been in contact over this and further explain that your delay to be responsive to the agency notices and a subsequent agency action requiring adjustment in your BLM response, and with your failure to keep contact, it was decided there was nothing more that could be done to provide help.

You finally sent your document for review and was told that it was good but needed to have added the parts you failed to include about the highway law which was fundamental to the BLM obstruction you initially sought help for. This was suggested to you also to fulfill your desire to meet with the county commissioners; To at least know what you were talking about more comprehensively than merely reciting code sections.

As I understand it, the last communication with you was that you had to understand the highway law better and represent that in the last part of your letter. Despite your insistence to the contrary, nothing has come back to either of these guys for review. I am told neither has any communication from you after that request to you to fix your document after research.

Also, it has been pointed out, being a simple addition to an otherwise good document [that much got finished, despite your claim nothing got finished] further failure of contact should not have impeded your ability to either answer the BLM in time or educate the commissioners just because the document you claimed you finished was not reviewed by either of the guys helping you.

Your resistance to just send the document now suggests the research and understanding have not actually been accomplished. Otherwise, instead of reasserting that you sent it, again, in light of the diplomatic concession of a simple communication breakdown, you would have sent it now. With all due respect, it seems like you're pitching stones while living in a glass house.

I am told, with regard to your problem, the information on the JMD website is as current as it needs to be. That the law hasn't changed since then.

And though they have come from as a far away as Arizona and Washington, even I believe it is, Wisconsin, I wish more people could make it to the meetings. This doesn't stop people from participating when they really want to make a difference despite the difficulties.

I've spent enough time on this and have done what I can do to help run this down. If you can't send the document then there is not much any one can do. And I don't think its fair to continue to try to “clarify” or “expose” anything further either.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[fowledup]

I was gonna say I think ya all should of aired that out thru PM's. I'm a very big fan of mining districts, that being said. Meg in your attempt to stick up for the JMD's good name, and whether purposeful or not show jog as a malicious feces stirrer, you've inadvertently made the point for an association. You say that the district won't do the work for you. The Association say's they want to do it for you. Miners don't understand the law or the process, and quite frankly have a propensity or ability to screw it up for the rest of us when they attempt it on their own. No offense to miners, I'm one and I consider myself in the top 15% as far as knowing and understanding the legalities of it all. I think for most miners the prospect of standing up to the state by themselves in a court room intimidates the hell out of us. Hob knobbing and lobbying with the very people (politicians) we can't stand is not our cup of tea. Fortunatley there are those among us who enjoy the legal system and how it operates and many are social butterfly's who enjoy being in the company of others. So perhaps we need to quit bashing and figure out a place for all that benefits us. OMA is not MMAC. If the mining district is the lead, and the association is a liason for the district as well as a conduit running between the legal bodies and the district to the miners, all working as a unified team how can we go wrong with that? Like you said JMD ain't gonna do it for you.

I've got a story that kinda parodies how I believe miners feel about all this legal stuff: A few years ago the powers that be at work decided it was better and more cost effective (for them) if the workers started managing their own retirement and pension. At the meeting I told them I had been an electrician for 30 years and a pretty good one at that. I also told them I had put on a bandaid a time or two and treated a few colds and flu's on my kids. I then asked them that now knowing about all my experience if they thought I was qualified to manage their money or perform any medical procedures on them or their family. I'm happy to say our pension is doing wonderful things under the eyes of the outfit that has always handled it. My point is I went to school and served an apprenticeship to be exactly what I am and what I wanted to be. It doesn't make me a lesser person because I can't or choose not to deal with the periphreal aspects of what I do.

 

[jog]

MEG
I'm glad to see you have it all figured out, its obvious that you or anybody I delt with at the JMD will not admit that they didn't do anything wrong. I'm not going to hash this out on an open forum anymore because I can see that from the very first sentence you wrote you have been on the defensive. I'm sorry that you have such a poor attitude towards miners that can't do everything themselves or need help.I will be washing my hands of this whole thing and will not be recommending that anyone approach the JMD for any assistance.

 

[M.E.G.]

fowledup,


Thanks for your observations. Gives us a productive place to work from.

Regarding your opinion that I made the case for association involvement, I think you are missing the point entirely.

First off, so it does not get lost, no Association can do anything for a grantee's obligations and duties, neither can a mining district. Each miner is responsible to protect his own property.

The reason is, being grantees possess property, no one else suffers strict liability where purporting to protect a property for any errors.
The point being, the mining districts are assemblies of these property owners who worked together to protect themselves from interference, even amongst themselves, where the government wouldn't or couldn't. This assembly never displaced the miner's independent obligation to himself and his property.

Until grantees take direct responsibility for their property things are not going to change or get better. Throwing money at a foreign organization will do worse, make you poor as well.

Look, I don't like having to deal in the law side of mining at all, but I've seen case after case that proves properly addressing the agencies and the government, in general, makes all the difference. Being state-organized and established entities, the associations have been as useless as the attorneys. The only functioning mining district I know of offers certain help, that when the grantee does as he should when he was supposed to he has stopped the agencies in their tracks. And I don't think any of those miners felt intimidated after being instructed on how to deal with the government or agency employees and where they invested research time to understand.

The way I understand this to work is, if you are standing in court feeling intimidated [not that it isn't naturally intimidating, but lawfully, ] you probably did something wrong in making your record of the violation to your property or rights.

I certainly do not like dealing with law aspect, but the reality is something has come upon us that needs to be stopped before we can resume our chosen work, because those invaders are ignoring the law and not being held accountable. Instead, these specialist invaders claim to know the law then wrongly use it against us. Legal entities like the MMAC and the OMA are the tools used for our destruction. It doesn't matter the promoters are ignorant of this or intend better. It is still wrong. All it takes to see this is study. I suppose every one is free to put their head in the sand and deny this. But we all know that isn't an answer. And more bureaucracy is no Solution.

Your analogy in support of relying upon professional experts, State licensees, etc., because you are not properly trained, wrongly presumes that there are competent experts to rely upon. There is no evidence that government offices, agents, or legal entities are competent to protect your mineral estate property. There is ample evidence to show these actors cannot and do not intend to.

You didn't notice the OMA is created and run by BAR ASS., attorneys? These people are essentially committing felonies in dealing in other people's private property without lawful consent and treason in the Method used to do that. This is not my opinion but admitted by the BAR ASS., and members when it didn't answer the JMD suit in 2013. As informed by the JMD Coordinator there, these are the same BAR ASS., attorneys, that were found to be clueless to the Constitutions and underlying foundations of the mining law at the recent mining "summit", Bentz held in Eastern Oregon; referenced in the recent legislative committee video.

In that committee meeting, the OMA attorney coincidentally claimed, as used by the 1000 Friends of Oregon in 1995, representative authority over all property for purposes of establishing State mining policy. I was never contacted, were you? And they claim to represent me or you? Really?

The OMA can't lawfully be this representation neither can it protect the miners in the first instance, nor greater than the law already does as they acknowledge in the video. Under Oregon law his claim of representation over my property and your property, and acceptance by the committee is a felony.

You need to see that legislative committee video and understand what you are listening to. He also wrongly commingles the mineral estate mineral classes, which is evidence of incompetence in the mining law in the minimum but doesn't even apply the estate when discussing their intention. These people are very slick and deceptive as they throw the miners under the bus. You want that representing you?

That attorney spells out how they are planning to defeat mining, all the while saying they are fighting for it and admits to being a partner to other organizations known to hurt independent miners. Notice how he admits they intend to cut out all other input from mining representation and the committee agrees.

JMD dealt with these abuses in 2013. JMD was the Voice of the Law these same attorneys and committee members ignored in 2013. These attorneys are forced to listen to the law now but only to the extent they can get away with destroying it. You do know these attorneys are both agents and officers of the State looking after State interests, don't you? These felons are going to be your voice?

If you don't know that MMAC or OMA is wrong and bad, you need to do some reading. I've posted plenty of references to the law and supporting material. What you perceive as bashing MMAC or OMA, or the like, is actually identifying crime, felonies in progress. What we need to do is stop making excuses for not taking responsibility for our properties allowing these people to hurt us.

These criminals won't confess to their crimes themselves. JMD has been explaining and exposing these people for years through its Coordination capacity, if any one would just listen and help. The guys at JMD explaining this to me know a whole lot more as well.

To watch how this works, Miners are not actually dealing in any failure of the mining law. They are dealing with people evading the law, such as the attorneys. The help JMD and its Assembly bring is showing how to take the steps to stop or check this evasion.

One real important point being missed: No Association can coordinate and can only act as a collaborator under Gov or agency discretion. That "Voice" both MMAC and OMA speak about is the destruction of your voice as a property owner, in favor of their agenda, which will and has destroyed property and rights. This was admitted to by the BAR ASS., the State, and others in 2013. And even the BAR ASS., is a mere Association as well, isn't it? Worse, it's a agency of the state. You trust the State's agents with your property?

Did you understand as well, when attorney Angstrom said in front of the legislative committee he was speaking for all miners with their consent, he was lying. Same for MMAC, speaking for the mining districts. It's a lie. The fact JMD is outing these people using the law proves there was no consent by all mining districts or the miners which comprise them.

Are liars who you want to be your Voice? They don't know the law and they don't know each grantee's property, nor can they prove agency. And they are going to be Your voice? I don't need mining law to tell me, that pig won't fly, no matter how light and bright the lipstick.

The professed division spoken to which MMAC and OMA will "cure" is completely fabricated. Congessionally acknowledged mining districts are already the "lead". They are completely independent of the government though within the constraint of the mining law. But they are even different than this. Congressionally acknowledged mining districts are not legal associations under state law. Importantly, they are congressionally recognized governments that can, additionally, Coordinate. Mining districts don't need a liaison. Grantees don't need a liaison. They do not need any MMAC or OMA bureaucracies. Mining districts do not need to be organized into a unified association, which is after all only an association not a mining district. All mining districts are already unified by the mining law and are charged with making sure it is followed. They do this through their Assembly. But the agents of "hope and change" seek to convince you otherwise that they can do it for you, and get you to agree to regulation and bureaucracy because the miner is too lazy to protect his own property. Is this the real problem being solved when advocating for association security, Laziness?

And if mining districts were actually so important to PLP, why didn't It just establish one? Why didn't It then work with JMD?
Oh that's right, the legal Association can't be a congressionally acknowledged mining district or create one. Only land possessing grantees can . . . and these who "shall have the exclusive right of possession and enjoyment of all the surface included within the lines of their locations ", can't be told what to do with the granted property from outsiders unless the grantee gives up and gives in to the profiteering con-man.

How You, [you in general, we miners], go wrong is not understanding the grantees status.
How You go wrong is thinking 501 C3 legal associations or more bureaucracy can defend that status.
How You go wrong is not taking the responsibility on what was accepted when you become a grantee or by thinking some one foreign to your property will defend it better than you.
How You go wrong is to exalt those foreign to YOUR PROPERTY with a capacity and expertise which is proven they do not possess; Rather it can be shown by the methods they use they are operating under cover of competency to impose incremental theft of your property.

You have read the House Delegation Resolutions of the BAR ASS., resolving to do everything in their power to steal your property and way of life, haven't you? Attorneys are part of that. Associations, and other 501C3 organized legal entities, are required to use attorneys in court. Mining districts are not. The 2013 JMD lawsuit proved this. Which is to be more trusted, an attorney running an agenda representing an association and the state interest, or a mining district of the miner's own establishment?

Suggesting the law and knowing the law is peripheral to a miner misses the point as well. The only reason why we even have a property is because Congress fulfilled its obligation to the states IN LAW. There is no way around that. The law and knowing it is central to being a miner, though traditionally miners never thought of it that way. Being they made the laws then it was more natural to them. Miners have lost their way, custom, culture, and tradition, it seems.

With the political environment today the miners do not have the luxury to not know the law or how to properly apply it. And it appears this same political environment has destroyed the ability to rely on any one the government, agencies, or its legal associations, offer as any help or remedy.

You see, politics should have never attacked the producers. It was a felony when that occurred, and until now there has been no one knowledgeable about this subject matter to witness the crime. The MMAC or OMA is not that witness. These are the perpeTraitors.

Just as in other governmental conditions, for instance, the Association of Oregon Counties cannot do and does not have the power the counties have. The Association of Oregon Counties cannot liaison for the county. And the counties are finding this out as they deal with the Fed. Agencies. Evidence of this can be found in the publication of the Western Oregon RMP proposal. You may know, counties were started from mining districts in many instances. The correlations between the MMAC, in your utility of it, and the Association of Oregon Counties is very similar. There is no liaison capacity which can be effective with respect to the contemporary condition. The other problem with thinking this way is even if a liaison were possible, this misses the point that the supposed liaison is dealing in a system where when the government needed a liaison to tell another government to keep its hands off there was a bigger problem. This problem doesn't require a liaison, it requires arrests of those trespassing the law and the obligations and duties of the States and Congress. Liaison in this capacity is no different than negotiating with a terrorist. Instead Coordination is already in place the purpose of which is to check transgressions of the law by agencies.

JMD has been coordinating for 4 years now, no liaison needed. Being mere legal entities, MMAC and OMA fair no better than the Association of Oregon Counties. That fact is, even if legitimate, I would not trust my property to whomever I've seen with these legal entities, such as MMAC or OMA, claiming mining law knowledge. They just don't have it.

Regarding your story, the doctor, the bean counter, other specialists, etc., not only are you presuming there is a competent specialist to rely upon but you are agreeing you need to retain a specialist in a subject matter that is settled and which does not require a specialist were the law observed and transgressors to it held accountable.

Because society has specialized does not mean handing our property to the government public/private professional "specialist" is proper to protect our property. The existence of the Vaccine court should cause every one pause if any one believes to the contrary that government or its officers, agents, or associations are here to help.

The grantee lives or dies by the grant. The grant is a product of the law, not the State, not the BAR ASS., or its members, or of any Association. The miner has always been a creature of law, even when there was no law to guide him. That's where he invented his government called mining districts to keep the peace and protect his property. And Congress, in law, acknowledged this power. This is why with the attack to our properties, we must use congressionally acknowledged, not administrative mining districts to organize grantees and free of foreign interference such as the BAR ASS., MMAC, OMA or what ever other devious entrapment, and because we find it a necessity.

I suppose it could be said those who would give their property to a stranger to protect are not actually worthy of that property. The grantees at JMD do not believe in handing their property to the stranger, the incompetent, the shyster, the politician, or the criminal, [may have repeated myself there], etc., and have assembled by the name of Jefferson Mining District to directly confront the Voice of the aggressors acting under color of authority to feloniously interfere with our property. No one else is actually taking this sort of hands-on approach in the law. The attorneys are not. The Associations are not, no matter how much these say they are.

I do support JMD. This is because I've seen how when miners do things correctly, doing things themselves, not relying on the so-called "experts", the result is completely different, successful. Matters don't end up in the court and miners continue to work.

JMD, or any properly functioning district, is congressionally acknowledged to have always done what no one else can do. These governments can deal administratively on the law side of the process to ensure agencies act pursuant to the law, not like MMAC union, as an agency of more government bureaucracy where the miner gets to agree to how much he is willing to endure under , what's called "reasonable regulation". How absurd.

But as an independent power congressionally acknowledged mining districts check that encroachment. No mere legal association can do this, no matter how big the "Voice" is you are promised. And a voice given by whom, that you didn't already have one more powerful?

No one else and no other body is doing things needing to be done as I see JMD doing. There is nothing MMAC, OMA, or PLP can do for the miner that he can't do for himself or as assembled. And better in this private assembly, working together than as a, or under, legal association. Until miners understand this and accept their responsibilities without excuse, there won't be much if anything to save them. Any body they hand their property to to defend it will either lose it, or steal it, or encumber the property owner with more obligations, such as with "solutions", permits, "reasons regulations", ad nauseam, not contemplated in law or needed.

Because the prime obligation miners have in accepting the grant and property is to defend it from trespass, they are not in the luxury to let any one else handle it no matter how distasteful and troublesome this may be. An Association can't fix that for the miner.

Regarding Jog, the people at JMD don't publicize any miner's problems. Jog made it an issue here. His story didn't and doesn't wash with what I know goes on behind the scenes to help miners and the dedication of those providing the help. I've seen the difference between miners taking responsibility and those that won't and make excuses. I believe resorting to excuses is being blamed on people that deserve much better for what they do, day in and day out.