Can BLM do this

[Bodfish Mike]

This pertains to Mining in Keyesville CA
Keyesville: Recreational Mining
Here's what BLM is proposing to do.
here is the Quote from them.

"Permits will be required for recreational prospecting taking place outside mining claims in order to make sure prospectors understand the laws and only work in specified recreational mining areas. Those owning mining claims will need to provide fifteen day notice to the BLM prior to mining on private claims in Keyesville."

Well I'm ok with the permit on the recreational mining areas and think they can do that but the fifteen day notice to the BLM prior to mining on private claims I have a problem with. Note there is a GPAA Claim Involved here and other private claims plus some un-claimed areas.
So do you think BLM can inpose this on us casual use Miners.

 

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[Asmbandits]

" I think some would argue that anyone that works by hand and in such a small scale, and without a valid claim would be considered "recreational"."

ITS CALLED PROSPECTING!!! Sorry...Its called Prospecting!

Yes it is called prospecting if you are prospecting, you can also mine by hand and it's called mining.. Doing it by hand doesn't justify if its prospecting or mining.

 

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[DDancer]

Here is more and current info on what's going. (it's alot of reading I was trying to keep it short.)
Keyesville Planning
I went to some of the workshops and commented The 15 day wait was a bad idea.
My info comes from the October 2014 workshop.
PDF File http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ca/pdf/bakersfield/keyesville_pdf.Par.73239.File.dat/KeysvilleGoldFeverRMZnotes.pdf

My comment.
The RMP’s requirement for a 15 day wait before mining is extremely constraining for out of town users who want to just pull up and do some casual use prospecting. Does the BLM really expect these miners to complete a notification process or programmatic plan before every single hole? Is there really a need for a 15 day wait for casual use
prospecting? Note: My comment was meant for out of town GPAA members


BLM response.
It’s important to note that the 15 day notice requirement applies only to people mining on claims rather than in the recreational mining area. The requirement is directed at claim owners for the overall operations on the claim rather than
individual miners and their individual actions.


So back to my original question.
Do you think BLM can impose this on us casual use Miners.

I THINK NOT AND I'M GOING TO TEST IT.

The underlined text rouses my interest. Can you publish the full response here please as well as your initial inquiry. Much like others I feel a claim is a claim and your statement with its response and signatories is of interest. DD

 

[Hefty1]

Yes it is called prospecting if you are prospecting, you can also mine by hand and it's called mining.. Doing it by hand doesn't justify if its prospecting or mining.

I agree.

 

[Hefty1]

BLM response.
It’s important to note that the 15 day notice requirement applies only to people mining on claims rather than in the recreational mining area. The requirement is directed at claim owners for the overall operations on the claim rather than
individual miners and their individual actions.


So back to my original question.
Do you think BLM can impose this on us casual use Miners.

I THINK NOT AND I'M GOING TO TEST IT.

No... they cannot. They can huff and puff all they want.

 

[MadMarshall]

From what I gathered from past posts, would it be a safe assumption that you feel unless someone is living full time on a claim, blm or usfs land and has a lack of other income willfully or otherwise, this makes you a real miner and not recreational?

I would think owning and maintaining a valid claim would constitute legitimacy. The other things you point out I would consider preference and personal opinion. I think some would argue that anyone that works by hand and in such a small scale, and without a valid claim would be considered "recreational". Might want to consider this as it may group yourself into the same as thoughs you speak of yourself.

“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
John Lennon

 

[rodoconnor]

So the rogue agency expects the compliant to notify them when we wish to exercise a legal RIGHT. How about the use of free speech.? Who do we notify to exercise that right ?

 

[Goldwasher]

“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
John Lennon

That is a good quote victor. now apply it to all the club members.....weekenders...wet and dry seasoners....the guys like me he hit it hard when they can and like to encourage and educate others....I have had to sell gold to pay bills right now I'm glad I don't have to sell if I don't want to. You do relate a good part of your opinion on the fact that this is pretty much what you do to live.. "PROSPECTOR FOR LIFE" it is not hard to go back through the majority of your posts and see that you do not like clubs. Even worse you are basically stating people who do decide to join a club or support a group are fools and all of the clubs thieves. I'm not even a member of any of them and I don't think its fair for you to call out people you don't even know. Many here are members and quite a few know the heads well and like them quite a bit. Any of these founders I have met have been quite nice and you know what not one of them asked me to join or threw me a sells pitch about how awesome they were. I'm actually getting a little jealous at how many claims amra members are getting access to considering the very small membership fee. and GPAA is less than a monthly phone bill for access to an insane amount of property. The outdoor channel made the original gpaa rich not membership the vast majority of claims do not belong to the clubs or groups that use them.Many owners swap access for membership on one of their claims within a group of several. So they can hit other places with out the hassle.
This isn't tit for tat...there is no reason for you to get vulgar by changing the phrase. I wish you would put forward your solution for changing the system that allows YOU to make your WAGE with out taking away the access for other people. Keeping in mind that is what even allowed you to get started. Or will you please come out and say thay you don't believe just anyone should have these rights because that is what it sounds like you are trying to get at.
Honestly how is this affecting you? You make your wage you show your videos this already is your prospectors life. So, what hurdle are you jumping. What place can you not get to? Or what do you reallty see as the problem that clubs are causing by getting more people to prospect and actually encouraging people to stand up for their rights. And go bigger and maybe even live the same prospectors life.


WHAT IS YOUR ACTUAL PROBLEM are you really just trying to keep people from getting ripped off or trying to out the MINER MINERS for the sake of justice without having actually ever been ripped off or duped?Just plain good will?

Again I am very interested in your thought out well articulated response after all your trying to help so lets have an answer not an insult or someone elses quote

 

[Goldwasher]

So the rogue agency expects the compliant to notify them when we wish to exercise a legal RIGHT. How about the use of free speech.? Who do we notify to exercise that right ?

When I filed at blm they said something like " now you need to go to the blm geologist and let him know what you plan to do on your claim".......YEA RIGHT

 

[rodoconnor]

When I filed at blm they said something like " now you need to go to the blm geologist and let him know what you plan to do on your claim".......YEA RIGHT

Don't you just love how they can create authority and power out of thin air. With ignorance and intimidation they will rise through the ranks.

 

[MadMarshall]

GW
No easy thing to articulate.. A solution.... First would be to recognize that the world and things are quite different then what they were in `1872.. And many things have changed. Including land use.. Saying Recreational prospecting doesn't exist doesn't make it so.. recreational prospecting is not a term created by the government or land agencies to takes people rights away.. It a real part of land use today. And its a valid use. But its most certainly not a use mining law applies to..

Now for me a lot of problems arise is because so many people want the rights mining law gives just not the responsibility.. AMRA GPAA and the others are Recreational they use the land Recreationally.. Why would mining law apply to their type of use? It most certainly wasn't written with that kind of use in mind! The fact that these Recreational clubs who sit their and manipulate mining law for their convenience is wrong. Its a big problem... Lines will be drawn and legal definitions will be written . And the community will suffer..

I personally have nothing against recreational prospecting. And its most certainly not my intent to discourage people from it.. In fact I love seeing people outside and making use of the land and being apart of it..

I do personally think donating to these groups is money wasted. I put AMRA and these other groups in the same catergory as TV Evangelism. Fraud at its best.. but that's just my opinion..
ignoring something and saying its not a real thing doesn't make it true. And for me I most certainly wouldn't let mining advocacy groups and mining clubs who soley exploit recreational mining be allowed to go around claiming to represent anything but Recreational mining.. If these recreational clubs are allowed to continue representing the mining community ;everyone will suffer.. We suffer now for it..
You think these clubs are getting people to stand up for their rights? What rights? to mine recreationally any way they want?

These are my thoughts and opinions.. What of it?

 

[KevinInColorado]

And I hope your not misunderstanding me...I agree there is no such thing as recreational mining on public lands.. it's just mining or prospecting there is no law creating a "recreational" threshold on public lands. And as hefty has correctly stated the word has been used against us. And there are people trying to get it included in unlawful regulation....and just because someone only digs on weekends or in club claims it doesn't invalidate the claim or turn that person into a recreational prospector

Right. What makes you recreational is the land you're standing on. Simple as that. If it's not claimable, you are recreational. Your gear, intentions or profit motive are irrelevant to the law.

Here in metro Denver this is important. People saying 'my mining rights' and such led to cities banning all prospecting in city & county parks. Only by talking about 'recreational prospecting' have we been able to turn that around to get access to non-federally managed lands.

 

[Goldwasher]

GW
No easy thing to articulate.. A solution.... First would be to recognize that the world and things are quite different then what they were in `1872.. And many things have changed. Including land use.. Saying Recreational prospecting doesn't exist doesn't make it so.. recreational prospecting is not a term created by the government or land agencies to takes people rights away.. It a real part of land use today. And its a valid use. But its most certainly not a use mining law applies to..

Now for me a lot of problems arise is because so many people want the rights mining law gives just not the responsibility.. AMRA GPAA and the others are Recreational they use the land Recreationally.. Why would mining law apply to their type of use? It most certainly wasn't written with that kind of use in mind! The fact that these Recreational clubs who sit their and manipulate mining law for their convenience is wrong. Its a big problem... Lines will be drawn and legal definitions will be written . And the community will suffer..

I personally have nothing against recreational prospecting. And its most certainly not my intent to discourage people from it.. In fact I love seeing people outside and making use of the land and being apart of it..

I do personally think donating to these groups is money wasted. I put AMRA and these other groups in the same catergory as TV Evangelism. Fraud at its best.. but that's just my opinion..
ignoring something and saying its not a real thing doesn't make it true. And for me I most certainly wouldn't let mining advocacy groups and mining clubs who soley exploit recreational mining be allowed to go around claiming to represent anything but Recreational mining.. If these recreational clubs are allowed to continue representing the mining community ;everyone will suffer.. We suffer now for it..
You think these clubs are getting people to stand up for their rights? What rights? to mine recreationally any way they want?

These are my thoughts and opinions.. What of it?

What makes the way people are digging on a claim that is held by a private citizen "recreational" ? What is the Metric...is there a checklist based on equipment? Or is it because the dude drove over from Florida to hit three different claims over a month and a half? Say a guy had two claims for fifteen years and wants to share one with a club in exchange for membership. He pulls four ounces a year running a thousand dollar power sluice two afternoons and two weekend days a week. mostly alone but sometimes with a partner. Is he recreational. Or if he only pulls two ounces is he recreational. He pays his fees with part of his take and his gear is simple home made and gas doesn't put him in the hole. As his claim is less than a mile from his house. The majority of the gold dug will add to his retirement. Now that he is the member of a club is he recreational? Or does it only count when he has his membership card and is on a club claim? Or should he avoid cracking a smile or a beer? Does he lose his professional status if he only works the wet season?
Or heres one. A guy watches a gold show on t.v. lives in Kansas. He gets bit by the bug goes to Denver to visit Kevin and actually finds his first gold in creek he is hooked for sure put his poke is flypoop. He retires in six months. He spends countless hours online reading forums asking questions meeting people online he befriends a nice person in Arizona. Makes plans for the spring. He's learned enough to hold his own with a pan. Once he is in the area he see's his first recirc set up and decides he doesn't mind filling buckets. Around the campfire the expected conversations happen ideas and views are shared. These guys all happen to have GPAA membership...some are snowbirds some live year round. They all worked hard to get where they are but, are very glad they left the rat race young enough to go out and get sore and sunburned. When he goes back to his r.v. he is up all night telling himself he can do it. He can be like them and have vials of gold numerous nuggets and specimins . And friends to share the stories with.
Is he a recreational prospector? Is it because it wasn't his first "Career" choice? Or because he doesn't sell his gold? Or all of it? Or is he only recreational if he goes over to one of the GPAA claims instead of the guy who invited him to Arizona. If his first season out he only digs a half ounce because he runs too much overburden and no one really showed him indicators..proper sampling or the benifits of a long screwdriver? Does he not quailify anymore?

Is there going to be an application Victor? A form to turn into the Dept. of miners vetting? Stating how much we plan to work ,the type of gear we want to run and where? Do we have to promise to never join or donate to any prospecting club and prove that we do not donate to any of the nefarious rights groups or non profits?
Is it required that mining will be our sole source of income? Do we have to report our finds and pay taxes before we make any sells of the valuable minerals recovered?
If a person states that he prospects as a hobby or for recreation does that really mean that he should only dig in certain areas?

I'll repeat that IF A PERSON STATES HE PROSPECTS AS A HOBBY OR RECREATION DOES THAT REALLY MEAN THAT HE SHOULD ONLY DIG IN CERTAIN AREAS??

I like the mining law because it covers everyone equally on public lands. I do not have to answer to or justify any of my above points. I can research and put boots on the ground and do what I want within the law.

You want to change that. You are labeling people and trying to change what law affects them and actually complicate things. The mining acts are a simple and straight forward. Trying to catagorize and add more steps is not simple.

Based on what your saying it seems you want there to be no club claims. Even though 90% of claims that clubs use are owned by people who are in no way legally bound to give access except for the terms of what ever temporary lease is in place between the owner and the officer of the club that handles those issues. But, I guess what your saying is those guys are recreational so they shouldn't have the right to share their claims with others.

So how would you make the seperation? For those that fit into the recreational use catagory vs. a professional. What to you suggest they should do? sign up for permits to dig only in designated areas run by an agency?
Are you going too get a politician to create a bill outlawing prospecting clubs and task a government agency with making sure no one gets together and forms groups to help educate people and give them easier places to access.

Do you have spreadsheets created showing how much money has been fleeced from all these unsuspecting prospectors who foolishly joined clubs. I'm sure many would like to see exactly how their money was wasted. I figure since you already started an investigation into AMRA you must have some hard facts.
How are they exploiting people? Who have you talked to that feels they have been ripped off? And I don't mean on the mental level. What actual harm has come to anyone you have talked to? Membership is voluntary. Even if someone doesn't find gold on a club claim they can't legally claim to have been duped or harmed.

I promise you if over the last four decades people in the private sector weren't orginizing into these groups getting together and standing up funneling money reaching out to legislators and all the things that club members do the situation would be a lot worse than it is now. Claiming that they do more harm than good is just not true. They may not have made things better or more agreablr to Victor Marshall... but, they have made things better for many educated thousands and kept us all at least treading water instead of just being washed away. I know most don't chime in and say much but, I know that your feelings on the subject are not shared by the vast majority of citizens you catagorize as 'Recreational Prospectors"

Keeping in mind you want the label to stick...please firm it up what by some kind of definition, what is a "Recreational Prospector" and what do you want to be done with them?

 

[Hefty1]

What makes the way people are digging on a claim that is held by a private citizen "recreational" ?

GW you don't know how many times that question has been asked of our politicians and law makers with NO answer.

 

[Tuolumne]

What happens if gold goes up in value?
A recreational miner could get 100$ for a gram
Right now spot is $40 gram

If we revalue the dollar to gold again like we have in the past then every "recreational miner" will be in the money and can make a profit on just weekends.

That's the way I see it. I won't turn a big profit on my 20 acres unless dredging comes back or gold goes up up and away....

What about other minerals? I could harvest slate on weekends at a profit too. Hell even gravel is pricey!

 

[Goldwasher]

What makes the way people are digging on a claim that is held by a private citizen "recreational" ?

GW you don't know how many times that question has been asked of our politicians and law makers with NO answer.

Oh believe me man I know how many times...it was a rhetorical question as the answer is NOTHING!!!!

Nothing in the law seperates anyone based on any criteria. EVERYONE has the same opportunity in the combined mining acts. You see when it was written they knew things would change in polotics and demographics. That why it was written the way it was to protects citizens and not allow change for the benifit of a few.

 

[Goldwasher]

What happens if gold goes up in value?
A recreational miner could get 100$ for a gram
Right now spot is $40 gram

If we revalue the dollar to gold again like we have in the past then every "recreational miner" will be in the money and can make a profit on just weekends.

That's the way I see it. I won't turn a big profit on my 20 acres unless dredging comes back or gold goes up up and away....

What about other minerals? I could harvest slate on weekends at a profit too. Hell even gravel is pricey!

Excellent point I think people get hung up on yhe "Gold Mining " thing not realizing all the resources and developers of resources that are covered.

Getting upset because you feel cut off of land that is leased by others is a pretty shallow reason to want to force change. There are more claims for other minerals than there are for gold. any changes to the mining law will affect many people in a negative way. Wanting to change it to make claimed ground open to suit personal desires is pretty greedy if you ask me.

 

[MadMarshall]

GW
you keep implying my thoughts are a result of some problem I have or my ability not to go where I would like.. Not true.

All I can say is that I am thankful I do not require Legal funds to exercise my rights...

I do personally think that Recreational mining claims are a misuse.. I also question the claims Validity the moment the were traded for Recreational use.

I am not going to sit here and debate what makes a person Recreational and what doesn't..
You want to support AMRA and these others .. Fine with me .. Stand tall with your wallet held high..
You feel like you get something in return? Great...

I have no intention on changing the world in fact I much rather hide from it.
But regardless ......
I suppose it all the intent and integrity of the individual on whether they are Recreational or not.. I know laughable right?

You made your point GW an all to common thing today.. we see it everywhere now a days.. Not just in Laws and Regulations but our very Constitution....
Manipulating laws and twisting them to suit your purpose not their intended purpose But instead what you think it should be.
I admit defeat!
let time decide this debate or declare yourself a winner.. Either way no sweat off my back..

 

[yodi]

I'm not saying I mine at night but reasons like this are why I mine at night
,

 

[Goldwasher]

GW
you keep implying my thoughts are a result of some problem I have or my ability not to go where I would like.. Not true.

All I can say is that I am thankful I do not require Legal funds to exercise my rights...

I do personally think that Recreational mining claims are a misuse.. I also question the claims Validity the moment the were traded for Recreational use.

I am not going to sit here and debate what makes a person Recreational and what doesn't..
You want to support AMRA and these others .. Fine with me .. Stand tall with your wallet held high..
You feel like you get something in return? Great...

I have no intention on changing the world in fact I much rather hide from it.
But regardless ......
I suppose it all the intent and integrity of the individual on whether they are Recreational or not.. I know laughable right?

You made your point GW an all to common thing today.. we see it everywhere now a days.. Not just in Laws and Regulations but our very Constitution....
Manipulating laws and twisting them to suit your purpose not their intended purpose But instead what you think it should be.
I admit defeat!
let time decide this debate or declare yourself a winner.. Either way no sweat off my back..

I don't want to imply anything. There are just holes in your story.

I am not a member of any club or group never have been. I've given money to Brandon and taken part in some of the Senate hearings and sent in letters of opinion.
I am a claim owner and I prospect on open public lands. I do not see my self in any way above or more worthy to capitalize on those oppurtunities than any other person. I do not want anything about that to change. Hence the reason why I don't want mining law changed as it is the foundation of those opportunites.
My point is nothing about the situation is changeable without taking those opportunites from other people based on some form of criteria you either choose not to discuss, don't care how it will affect others or haven't put much thought into it.
That is why I put forth some examples of the type of people it would affect t if it was changed from what it is today.
I'm sorry I assume that when you make such bold accusations that you would have a solid logical ideal or at least a well thought out rebuttal.
I'm not trying to debate with you I'm trying to have an informed conversation.

 

[Goldwasher]

And the trade I speak of is for access. The owner of a claim keeps it in their name they get access to an other claim and generously let peple dig on there's with paperwork making sure anyone prospecting has no right to discovery. It is within the law and not twisted or abused. So are you saying that if someone who has a claim and let's people dig at it at a small scale it should be invalidated. Or only if they do it for the sake of joining a club and expanding said club leases claims?
How exactly meaning what part of the mining law is that not following or what part of the law is it breaking?
Your the one taking issue with it why is it twisting an manipulating? Define exploitation.