Calling all "clay" haters!!

[Wishbone]

Calling all "clay" hater's!!

Being a new miner, I've always been fascinated at the love/hate relationship between miner's and clay. They do the dance of joy when they find a layer of clay with a bounty of gold sitting right on top, or breaking through the false bedrock of clay and finding the payload there.
Only to curse the very same clay as they fight to combat it's relentless grip on gold and anything else that it comes into contact with! Even the most patient miner's cringe at the dreaded word "CLAY".
Here is what I have found so far.
There are many type's of clay. Which I AM NOT going to talk about because in terms of "fun", I'd rather stick an ice pick in my ear, then get that boring. I have found out that there are things that miner's add to clay, in an attempt to:
1. Settle the clay in the water faster in recirculating systems, to avoid pump burnout and run cleaner water.
2. Make clay release it's grip on our beloved gold and other valuables.
It's the first one that I need help with (to start with)! I want to run a recirculating system with a few tub's, and need advise on settling the clay in my water. I don't want any dangerous chemicals, and right now the best advise I have been given is 1/2 Borax, mixed with 1/2 Calgon Water Softener. The reason why I think this is good advise is because they are both, readily available, cheap, and safe to use.
Is there anyone out there that doesn't fear the dreaded CLAY, I really could use some advise, please!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Clay Diggins]

Soda ash is the active ingredient in washing soda. The chemical name for it is sodium carbonate, chemical formula Na2CO3. It is more basic, that is, less acidic, than sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), whose chemical formula is NaHCO3. The purpose of sodium carbonate is simply to increase pH.

This seems to be scary to some forum users okbasspro. Chemistry can be confusing if you don't experience it in action.

A little thought would make this a lot less scary. Here's the deal - when Baking Soda is used in baking (a lot of it is) it converts to sodium carbonate (washing soda) right in your food!

When the Baking Soda is cooked it gives off carbon dioxide and water. The carbon dioxide is what makes your bread all fluffy, moist and full of little tiny holes (bubbles of carbon dioxide gas). The end result is great bread with a little bit of a salty taste. That salty taste is the washing soda (sodium carbonate) left behind after it releases the carbon dioxide and water (sodium bicarbonate + heat = sodium carbonate + carbon dioxide and water).

In other words you eat washing soda every day as part of your regular diet. Don't worry it won't cause you to go blind or make your arms fall off but you might gain some weight if you eat too much.
That's why I wrote:

Whether you are washing your clothes, mining or swimming in it Sodium carbonate is perfectly safe as long as you don't try to make it a major part of your diet.

Don't let science or chemistry scare you. You are going to need both if you want to learn to mine anything but the internet.

Now back to our regularly scheduled show Calling all "clay" hater's!!

Heavy Pans

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[kcm]

Somehow I think Wishbone has already gotten more than he bargained for with this thread!

 

[Bill_saf]

Ok so heres the down and dirty Lime stone is one of the Main products in the manufracturing . soda ash is one of the by products. see The Solvay proces.

thats all I have to say

Bill

 

[okbasspro]

In other words you eat washing soda every day as part of your regular diet. Don't worry it won't cause you to go blind or make your arms fall off but you might gain some weight if you eat too much.

Clay I thought it was the bacon and beer making my wetsuit tight. Guess I am wrong it's the bread. From this point on only beer and bacon in mining camp.

 

[chlsbrns]

Why pay any attention to a MSDS (material safty data sheet) when you can pay attention to a baker that doesn't know what baking soda is used for when baking?

Bill... You should think more and speck less! Lol!

 

[KevinInColorado]

I want to nugget more and speck less! ;-)

 

[chlsbrns]

I was giving bill a clue to fix the misspellings in his sig! His sig says speck and ruled instead of speak and ruler.

Gezzz... You guys never get it!

 

[Clay Diggins]

OK so now we know several ways to deal with clay. The mixer methods probably works pretty good in combination with the washing soda. I haven't tried that but it seems like a natural combination on a small scale.

Clay isn't just minerals though. Usually there is a lot of organic material in river bottom clay. I'm guessing the folks in the Eastern States have a lot more experience with dealing with that kind of clay. There are at least three States that are composed almost entirely of clay. I'm wondering what miners have learned about clay there?

The washing soda pH increase thing works on organic clay too. Most clay particles are too small to see with a regular optical microscope and here's the weird thing - they are already in suspension! The ionic bond is just a surface effect. Most clay just falls apart without any mechanical action when the pH changes but getting the pH to change deep in a clump of clay can be a chore. One way to do this with clay that has a lot of organic material is to introduce a surfactant to help dissolve the oil bonds of the organic material so the pH shifting materials can do their work.

Most people think of Dawn dish detergent when we talk about surfactants but Dawn has a problem when we are dealing with clay - it's got a neutral pH (good) and dimethlyamine oxide (not so good) that actually helps keep the ionic bonds of clay working. We want something that can act as a surfactant to break down the vegetable oils in that organic mud but we don't want to mess up the ionic shift we get from washing soda. Those natural vegetable oils are fatty acids. We need a non ionic surfactant that can handle the pH shift and still work well.

Most soaps are actually made from fairly simple and cheap ingredients. The first one is usually something to break up the dirt - that's usually good ole sodium carbonate with a wetting agent. It's the wetting agent that causes the bubbles and acts as a surfactant to keep the dirt and oils in suspension. Luckily for us there is another very common chemical that is non ionic, serves as an excellent surfactant and is cheap and easy to find - Lissapol-N (Nonyl phenyl polyethylene glycol ether). Lissapol-N is in most soaps and detergents. It provides the ability to break down fatty acids like vegetable, food and body oils even when the pH is up around the 11 range like our washing soda.

Now the trick with all these chemicals is to use just what you need and no more. You only need to move your clay's pH just a little bit to get it to break down, anything more and you end up with alkaline mud. Same thing with surfactants, if you are seeing bubbles you've added too much. This isn't just about keeping your operation "green". Every extra bit of chemical you use costs money you didn't have to spend, every pH shift too far or excess bubbles creates wear and tear on your pumps and equipment that need not happen. High pH is hard on metals and soap bubbles can mess up recovery rates and cause cavitation in your pumps. Excess chemicals = bad mining.

So here's that boring part again. We keep telling you to sample, sample, sample when you are prospecting. Well when you begin mining the story changes to test, test and test again. A good part of that testing is about equipment and methods but chemistry use is an integral part of that testing. If you get it right you can count on the gold. If you get it wrong your recovery suffers and you pay more than you need to in equipment failures downtime and chemical expense.

I'm hoping some other miners will chime in here with their experiences with clay. There are as many different types as there are places to mine.

Heavy Pans

 

[Hefty1]

Why pay any attention to a MSDS (material safty data sheet) when you can pay attention to a baker that doesn't know what baking soda is used for when baking?

Bill... You should think more and speck less! Lol!

I have never found a MSDS on any loaf of bread.

 

[DizzyDigger]

 

[mikep691]

As a former Pastry Chef, I can actually say there is little to no Soda in everyday bread. There two exceptions however. The primary leavening agent in bread is yeast which is live orgism that feeds of the starches in flour which in turn creates that "light and airy" appearance.

The exceptions are biscuits and Irish Soda Bread, where baking soda is the leavening agent. Soda creates a much denser bread, less airy, and much heavier in texture.

And very true, you won't find a MSDS on either method of making bread.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread....

 

[chlsbrns]

You can research and find out about all kinds of clay at the USGS. The USGS is packed with all kinds of mining info unlike other websites with out of date and unreliable info. The USGS is used worldwide for everything geological unlike other sites with little to no traffic that grow cobb webs.

- U.S. Geological Survey Search Results

 

[Wishbone]

Ok, I just want to make sure I have a grip on what you are teaching us:
Soda ash will raise the PH level in my water, dropping the clay like a bad habit. Mix the soda ash in warm water (slowly, so it won't clump up) but do not boil the water. Wear eye protection, long sleeve's and mix it standing up wind or in a ventilated area to avoid inhaling. It's better to have "to little" soda ash, then "to much".

Use Lissapol-N as a surfactant to help break surface tension for all the minerals and precious metals (floating gold). Jet Dry will not work as it usually does, because of the high PH level's caused by the soda ash reaction. Again, mix sparingly because you can always add more as needed. Does that sound about right?

Claydiggin's from your experience what is the best source and/or provider of Lissapol-N?

 

[KevinInColorado]

I was giving bill a clue to fix the misspellings in his sig! His sig says speck and ruled instead of speak and ruler.

Gezzz... You guys never get it!

LoL, sorry, wasn't aimed at you...I just couldn't resist the gold pun!

 

[Wishbone]

Kevin was trying to be a punnyman. Don't bother getting up, I'll throw myself off the cliff...lol.

 

[okbasspro]

Ok, I just want to make sure I have a grip on what you are teaching us: Soda ash will raise the PH level in my water, dropping the clay like a bad habit. Mix the soda ash in warm water (slowly, so it won't clump up) but do not boil the water. Wear eye protection, long sleeve's and mix it standing up wind or in a ventilated area to avoid inhaling. It's better to have "to little" soda ash, then "to much". Use Lissapol-N as a surfactant to help break surface tension for all the minerals and precious metals (floating gold). Jet Dry will not work as it usually does, because of the high PH level's caused by the soda ash reaction. Again, mix sparingly because you can always add more as needed. Does that sound about right? Claydiggin's from your experience what is the best source and/or provider of Lissapol-N?

Glad you hung around to get your answer.

 

[Asmbandits]

I love finding clay layers it almost always hold some amount of gold where Ive run into it. Yesterday I was on the Bear river and found a honey hole that was basically a huge crevice filled with broken chunks of bedrock and clay mixed together. I took my time and hand panned about 10, 5 gal buckets of the stuff and it paid out very consistently the deeper I went. Usually with clay the gold sits on top and once you go too deep the gold just isnt there but not this spot. 1/2 classifier, pan and good gloves and patience was all I needed to battle the stuff. Im going to try running it through the bazooka soon, Im thinking of pre mixing in a bucket with some type of hand operated agitator. Would go the paint mixer and drill route but there is so much large broken bedrock mixed in I dont think it would work. Clay can be a good friend if it is rich and you have the patience to process it.

 

[goldenIrishman]

GoldenIrishman if you can run approx a week before clean up, then I want a system just like yours! You must have picture's of your system, or even better a video of it in action. Could we see them please (heavy on the please)!! I'm kind of getting excited about all the new and excellent idea's that I am getting from my helpful mining friends, so cooool!
This is the holding tank system I am currently thinking about setting up:

Hey Wishbone. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but things have been busy here. You have to keep in mind here that different soil types and how much material you run are going to give you different lengths of time that you can use your water. The more silt, the less time you can run. The only reason I am able to get a week out of my system is that I am not running it all day every day. I'm a "one man show" so I have to spend time digging, keeping camp up, fixing meals etc etc etc. Water gets topped off about every 4th or 5th time I empty the tailings bucket to replace what is lost when I pull it. I'm running a pair of cut down 55 gallon drums for my tanks but will be adding another pair of them soon. The pumps are held in a box made from 1/4 inch hardware cloth covered in window screen to keep the "floaties" out of them. I NEVER allow the pumps to sit on the bottom of the tanks since that's where all the crud settles. System setup takes about 40 gallons of water which I've adjusted to a neutral pH. (Water here is usually one step removed from liquid rock its so hard) I've also started adding a little bleach (Sodium Hyper-chloride) to kill off any bacteria which keeps the mud from stinking so bad during clean ups. (Thanks to Clay for that tip) It's also seems to keep those thirsty desert bees from swarming around my tanks.

I have some pics of my setup in my journal thread but in a nutshell it's a Le'Trap drop riffle with a headerbox mounted to a PVC frame and stand. Stand is not glued so it can be broken down for easier transport. If you have any more questions feel free to PM me.

 

[Alex Burke]

You can research and find out about all kinds of clay at the USGS. The USGS is packed with all kinds of mining info unlike other websites with out of date and unreliable info. The USGS is used worldwide for everything geological unlike other sites with little to no traffic that grow cobb webs.

- U.S. Geological Survey Search Results

This is what I consider a "trolling" comment Chslbrns you've made a few thinly veiled snide remarks for whatever reasons, but I just wanted to let you know that this is considered "trolling" on the Internet to me and maybe other people here. It wasn't lost on me when you "liked" every insulting post the "housesitter" made and followed him down a very dark path with insults and comments about "real miners" I got a good grasp of how you really feel about people from that thread especially. Why say something bad about a miner and or his site that takes the time to help many of us here with his site and knowledge?

 

[wildminer]

I like our Clay. He is a well intentioned good man.