What to do after the clay becomes mud

Clay Diggins

Silver Member
Nov 14, 2010
4,885
14,257
The Great Southwest
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
In the Calling all "clay" hater's!! thread I managed to share some useful information about how to break down clay by raising the pH with some simple cheap chemicals that are environmentally friendly.

Now that you've gotten the gold out of the clay you are left with some seriously muddy water. Recycling that water can only take place after you turn it from chocolate milk back to clean clear water. You could use large bodies of water and long settling times if you have the room, water and time. You could try to depend entirely on the flocculation process and just reverse the pH change we made to break down the clay. That involves mixing in a bunch of acid and voila your muddy water turns back into clay again.

The problem with using that acid flocculant system is you are left with clay and acid water - bad idea if you are going to recirculate the water because your chemical use goes way up when you try to breakdown the next load of gold holding clay. This creates a cycle that ends up with a toxic soup and wasted chemicals. The addition of acid also leaves us with water we can't recycle back into the environment. The same clay ground (low pH) that neutralized our high pH clay busting chemicals can't neutralize the acid water left from the acid flocculation process. You are left with more clay and acid pH water that is essentially useless for recirculation or further processing and a real environmental problem if you dump it.

Lucky for us there is a quicker, easier mechanical way to remove the mud from the water - the Lamella Separator. Although the principle of the lamella separator isn't new it's only been used for mining since the mid 1970's. The lamella separator requires no motors or electricity so once your system is tuned for your conditions you have no costs for operation and very little maintenance. Here's a little diagram to show the principle of operation.

lamella.jpg

Yeah it's that simple. The muddy water flows into one end of the tank and the clean water flows out the other end. The secret is those slanted plates on the outflow side. Everything else is pretty much like your average settling tank but the slanted plates cause the solids to drop out before the water can reach the outflow. Here's a little video to show you a working model and demonstrate the simple principles involved.



You will see these lamella separators at any major mine using water processing. They are pretty easy to spot because they are usually lopsided to accommodate the slanted plates. They can be big or small.

Here's one for a big mining operation.

lamella_large.jpg

And here's a small one easily transported and setup on a small operation.

lamella_sm.jpg

You can even buy or make your own plates for a homegrown water cleaner system. These are bulk made pre - cut plastic lamella tubes.

premade.jpg

Heavy Pans
 

Upvote 0

goldenIrishman

Silver Member
Feb 28, 2013
3,465
6,152
Golden Valley Arid-Zona
Detector(s) used
Fisher / Gold Bug AND the MK-VII eyeballs
Primary Interest:
Other
AzViper and I had been talking about something very much like this on a smaller scale. Keith suggested using the angled honeycomb pads for swamp coolers for the angled plate section but I can see where the ones you showed would be a much better setup Clay. ANy idea on where smaller quantities of them could be had at a reasonable price? I'm thinking a water trough from TSC, some sheet metal for the baffles and some of those tubes could do a great job in my neck of the woods.
 

chlsbrns

Bronze Member
Mar 30, 2013
1,636
656
Detector(s) used
Excalibur II
Primary Interest:
Other
How do you figure that there is no cost for operation? Flocculants and coagulants are not cheap and must be constantly fed into the lamella separator. How are you going to feed the coagulant into the system?

It sure seems like clay and those who "liked" his post didn't even watch the video. If they did watch it they would know that another tank was needed, that coagulants were needed and that the coagulant has to be continually added in the correct amounts.

A coagulant is basically the same as a flocculant. Later in the video they tell about adding the correct and constant amount of flocculant.

Amazing!!!

There is also the enviromental considerations. There is a tendency with lamella clarifiers for algae to grow on the inclined plates and this can be a problem especially if the overflow is being discharged to the environment or if the lamella clarifier is being utilised as pre-treatment for a membrane filtration unit. In either of these cases the overflow requires post-treatment such as an anthracite-sand filter to prevent the algae from spreading downstream of the lamella clarifier. As the inclined plates in the lamella clarifier are made of steel it is not recommended that chlorine be used to control the biological growth as it could accelerate the corrosion of the plates.
 

Last edited:

Goldwasher

Gold Member
May 26, 2009
6,077
13,225
Sailor Flat, Ca.
🥇 Banner finds
1
Detector(s) used
SDC2300, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil, .35 gallons of water per minute.
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
They work without chemicals. the high ph slurry will still gravity seperate. That way you use the same water and gain the clay busting advantage of the high ph water. A tub to tub sysem will clarify much better than the usual siphon transfer set ups most guys are using.
Wastewater plants have to deal with a lot of oils human waste is full of oil therefore water treatment plants have to use chemicals to deal with it. Mining with wet systems (non floatation) means NO OILS. just high ph to breakak clays organic pond then good ol' gravity.
There are industrial applications of lamella clarifiers specifically because you can use them without chemicals. Due to the fact post clarifacation processes use sensitve membranes for treatment and chemicals can't be used.

The main advantage over the usual settling basins is the surface area of the baffles the water is transferred to and the dynamic created by the angle causing increased clarified water transfer over other methods. No added mechanics is a bonus for prospecting the fewer moving parts the better.
 

OP
OP
Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

Silver Member
Nov 14, 2010
4,885
14,257
The Great Southwest
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
AzViper and I had been talking about something very much like this on a smaller scale. Keith suggested using the angled honeycomb pads for swamp coolers for the angled plate section but I can see where the ones you showed would be a much better setup Clay. ANy idea on where smaller quantities of them could be had at a reasonable price? I'm thinking a water trough from TSC, some sheet metal for the baffles and some of those tubes could do a great job in my neck of the woods.

The lamella tubes you see in the bottom picture of my first post are available for about $40 a cubic yard (m[SUP]3[/SUP]). Even cheaper is to find a running lamella separator in your area and see if they have any cut ends or scraps. Any water treatment plant is likely to have some around. Lamella separators are pretty common.

You can also just make your own with sheets of polycarbonate roofing panels. The twin wall stuff works too, just make sure you don't stack them against each other or use small profiles, you need flow room so the solids can sink to the bottom.

twin.jpg

Remember that the lamella works because the particle drop distance is reduced compared to the flow length. Longer tubes are good, big gaps or too narrow of a gap between the plates are bad. You still need enough gap to provide minimum surface drag from the rising water. If the water has eddy currents along the plates the solids will not be able to drop out.

You will get about 3 to 4 times as much processing flow as any other settling method with lamella plates but you are still going to have to size the unit to your needed sluice flow and material type. The separator will speed up your process water recirculation a lot but it can't make up for too little water mass in the system and you will still experience water loss rates similar to those you had without the separator. The lamella separator is a speed increase to the slowest part of the recirc system (settling) but doesn't change any of the other factors,

The swamp cooler pads might help with tank to tank filtration but you don't want anything obstructing the flow in the separator tank itself. I've found the cooler pads to be a mess to keep clean but I haven't tried all the different types so one of them might make a good filter. :thumbsup:

Heavy Pans
 

Last edited:

QNCrazy

Hero Member
Sep 30, 2013
537
961
Motherlode, CA
Detector(s) used
Gold Bug Pro
Clay, have you ever made a small scale version, maybe for a reciculating system? or anyone else? With the laws here in CA, ive been messing around with different screening process none of which work real well. I'm going to get into trouble with the wife with another "$20" project. LOL.

edit: Someone was reading my mind. Thanks Clay.
 

ratled

Hero Member
Feb 18, 2014
950
2,396
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
That was close, I thought this was going to be about Clay (Diggins) forgetting his anniversary or something like that!

ratled
 

chlsbrns

Bronze Member
Mar 30, 2013
1,636
656
Detector(s) used
Excalibur II
Primary Interest:
Other
Lamella separators can be used without chemicals but when a deflocculant such as soda ash is used it will not work. A deflocculant keeps the sediments suspended so the use of a large amount of a flocculant would be needed to drop the sediment and clarify the water.

When oil is present an emulsifier is used. There are coagulants that contain emulsifers.

Someone please do make one and video its use! You can buy the sheets a lot cheaper at...

Easy Ship 2' Wide Twinwall Polycarbonate - Plastic Sheets | Greenhouse Megastore

Or maybe alibaba! Lol!

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=s...te6Blsr7Dyqw2OyAY4PEm2tlE0cBedgvHOCpofWzyaMSI
 

Jeff95531

Silver Member
Feb 10, 2013
2,625
4,094
Deep in the redwoods of the TRUE Northern CA
Detector(s) used
Teknetics Alpha 2000
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
Thanks Clay. The diagram looks EXACTLY how my re-circ containment system is set up (with my high banker) except for the Lamella Separator itself. I don't have a lot of problems with clay balls (yet) but that p-nut butter colored soup doesn't clean up at all. This looks like just the ticket for an upgrade.
 

chlsbrns

Bronze Member
Mar 30, 2013
1,636
656
Detector(s) used
Excalibur II
Primary Interest:
Other
Now that I've given this a few seconds of thought it's quite clear that it can not work at all! How can you add soda ash to break up the clay (deflocculant) and then add a flocculant? You would have to completely change out the water to begin the process again! You surely could not add soda ash to deflocculate and then use a flocculant or you would be back to square one!

The separator can not possibly drop sediment when the soda ash is keeping the sediment suspended!
 

goldenIrishman

Silver Member
Feb 28, 2013
3,465
6,152
Golden Valley Arid-Zona
Detector(s) used
Fisher / Gold Bug AND the MK-VII eyeballs
Primary Interest:
Other
I have to go with Goldwasher on this one. We're NOT trying to get potable water here, just keep the water in a state that the gold can still drop out of the flow. Algae isn't even a concern in this application. In a sewage treatment system with higher levels of nitrates that would promote algae growth I could see where it could be a problem. Most small scale miners are not going to be doing anything more than using it as an advanced settling system to get longer run times from their system between having to muck out the tanks.
 

jcazgoldchaser

Hero Member
May 8, 2012
899
515
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Yeah, I've posted on this before after AZviper pointed it out.

Use corrugated plastic sign board, plastic corrugated sign board, corrugated plastic sheet...

Looks like this from the side

0corrplasmb04.jpg

Where do you get it? Well, you call the loser's headquarters and ask if you can help collect signs.

election.jpg

Or search online with the above text. Lowes and Home Depot carry it as well.

You want to use those as plates. Don't treat the 2 sides of 1 as 2 plates.

You can also use them to cause water to travel a greater distance in buckets.

I put some pretty <sick> graphics in this thread:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/sluicing/494384-siphon-water-transfer-recirc-systems.html
 

OP
OP
Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

Silver Member
Nov 14, 2010
4,885
14,257
The Great Southwest
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
Yeah, I've posted on this before after AZviper pointed it out.

You want to use those as plates. Don't treat the 2 sides of 1 as 2 plates.

You can also use them to cause water to travel a greater distance in buckets.

I put some pretty <sick> graphics in this thread:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/sluicing/494384-siphon-water-transfer-recirc-systems.html

The baffles you describe in your other post don't create a lamella separator. Baffles may slow down the water flow but they create alternating high and low pressure zones. That creates two undesirable conditions:
1 - Less water flow (due to friction) instead of more like you get with with the lamella separator.
2 - The alternating water direction change prevents settling of the smallest particles.

If you watch the video in the first post you will see the slanted parallel plates case the particles to drop out in the shortest path. Plates that don't have the slant create the longest path for particle drop out. That longer path causes the particles to stay suspended as they travel with the water.

For the filtering effect to work the path for the particle to drop out must be considerably shorter than the path the water takes. It's a simple principle but if you obstruct the water flow or lengthen the fall out path the effect fails and you just have muddy water.

Siphoning has it's own pitfalls when it comes to settling suspended particles. The comparison between the farmers siphon and the bucket siphon shown ignores the fact that the sharp turns the siphon pipe the miner is using actually creates turbulence which robs energy (speed) and causes the particles to re suspend themselves when being transferred. Notice the farmers siphon is smooth with a more gradual curve which moves the water with the least turbulence and greatest speed. That's important in flood irrigation of crops as well as mining water settlement.

A more effective water transfer system is the gentle overflow off the top of one settling unit to the next tank. The overflow only allows the cleanest water to move the next stage and doesn't cause additional turbulence in the already settled water. Here's an example of how mining operations accomplish this gentle trickle water transfer.

Weir.jpg

Notice that only the top water seeps out from around the whole tank. The overflow is controlled by the "fence" of little dams around the edge of the tank. Those little dams are called weirs and they make sure only the very topmost water gets out of the tank. You will notice that the lamella separator model in the video does the same thing by directing the topmost clean water to a shallow wide overflow with weirs to control the flow.

Siphoning causes the dirty bottom water to be sucked up and injects it in a small area into the bottom of the next tank. All of that causes turbulence and slows the rate of flow down due to the friction and pressure differential between the incoming water and the settling tank. Ideally we are looking for greater water flow and less turbulence, the lamella separator provides both.

Keep working on your designs and testing. The slanted plate of the lamella is the standard in mining water reclamation but with the time to test and modify current designs you might come up with the next big advance in mining water handling. :thumbsup:

Heavy Pans
 

jcazgoldchaser

Hero Member
May 8, 2012
899
515
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
The baffles you describe in your other post don't create a lamella separator.
Correct. There I wasn't thinking just clay, but twiggs and fine grasses, roots. The link is to someone posting the 3 bucket recirculating system which has zero baffles so you're going to have large debris in addition to the small particles moving through the system. The setup also doesn't use ridged interconnections and fittings in the tub sides so you can set it up easier, transport and store it easier by stacking the tubs, and even use it on a sloped or irregular surfaces. I see the over/under baffles as a simple to construct method to get those floaty organics closer to the surface and capture them in that compartment with the under flow. As the water siphons into the next bin, it again flows from a high to low pressure with that inverse funnel. And construction that allows simple design and construction with basic tools. Not to mention set it up << and forget it >> operation with changing water levels.

The laminar clarifier is an interesting notion and provided the above constraints can be maintained, may become very popular.

My idea there is a box made of the plastic cardboard sign material which would go in a standardly available tub. Inside the box would be the slanted plates. If you are familiar with tab and slot manufacturing, the plates would have tabs to connect to slots in the sidewalls so the whole thing could collapse flat for transport and storage. Getting the water out of the filter, which must be lower than the top of the tub to operate and out of that tub to the next, without pump, without fiddling about as water is lost is the issue here.

Tab and slot (quick fixturing for welding)
the-power-of-sheet-metal-design-sheet-metal-self-fixturing-design.gif

Other lamela Videos




 

Last edited:

chlsbrns

Bronze Member
Mar 30, 2013
1,636
656
Detector(s) used
Excalibur II
Primary Interest:
Other
Jcaz I watched the beginning of the first video. I see that clay particles take 230 days to settle 12 inches. Im sure it is 230 days in still water. How long does it take when there is soda ash keeping the particles suspended and moving water?
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20160330-125327.png
    Screenshot_20160330-125327.png
    172.8 KB · Views: 113
Last edited:

Aufisher

Bronze Member
May 12, 2013
1,948
4,830
The Golden State
Detector(s) used
Whites Goldmaster V/SAT. VibraProbe. Bazooka 48" Prospector Sluice. Shorts. Chickens + Goats + Goldhounds. 35' Chris Craft Caribbean motorsailer. FISH OIL + BURLAP
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
That would depend on gravity which may vary depending what planet your on.
 

chlsbrns

Bronze Member
Mar 30, 2013
1,636
656
Detector(s) used
Excalibur II
Primary Interest:
Other
That would depend on gravity which may vary depending what planet your on.

I didnt think of that! I guess you would have to be on another planet for it to work without the coagulant mixing tank and then the addition of a flocculant as shown in the video but if you do not use it as shown and did not use soda ash to break down the clay then how do you break down the clay? Back to square one!
 

OP
OP
Clay Diggins

Clay Diggins

Silver Member
Nov 14, 2010
4,885
14,257
The Great Southwest
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
Found these HDX 55 gal totes for $25 at Home Depot last night. Online it's a 4 pack.

45"x21"x19"

You've probably seen the smaller 27 gal at lowes, homedepot or Costco.

I've got several of those. The bottoms are pretty robust but the tops don't hold up to uv (sunlight) very well and tend to crack with use over time. The lid is made out of an unknown harder plastic. If you don't need a sturdy lid these are a good buy.

Heavy Pans
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top