proving a valuable discovery to blm

[ebuyc]

Has anyone successfully proven a valuable gold discovery to the BLM? Three (all) of my claim partners have released their interest in a couple claims that were over 20acres.
So I wonder if I am wasting my time trying to prove a valuable discovery (prudent man and 43 CRF 3800) to the BLM?

I feel they just want to force me to split up my claims...

Any thoughts and experience in this matter would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

After thought: I did read a couple articles on the forum from my search on this matter prior to posting; but did not really find what I was looking for. So links to other posts that are relevant would also be greatly appreciated - thanks again.

 

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[Alex Burke]

I think all you need to do is file a proof of labor and do the work. I don't think they actively go around checking the value yet the prudent man law is the original stipulation for filing the claim so I would think as long as you do the improvements and file the proof of labor that's all the blm wants. Many people here know more about this than me and maybe someone will jump in with a better reply

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yes I have and you can too.

Go to the Land Matters Mining Library and search for Placer Examination, Principles and Practice. Download and study. That is the manual the BLM uses as the standard for mineral examination of placer claims.

When you can demonstrate you meet those requirements submit your proof to BLM and Bob's yer Uncle.

Truth be told if you were holding 80 acre placer claims you are unlikely to be able to prove each 10 acres is mineral in character. Valid 80 acre placer claims are rarer than hens teeth - particularly in Washington State. If you do have claims of that size that can prove discovery you will want to keep them.

Heavy Pans

 

[winners58]

Under the BLM’s regulations at 43 CFR 3833.33(a), it is permissible to transfer or convey an association placer claim over 20 acres in size to a smaller number
of owners than originally locate the claim only if a “discovery of a valuable mineral deposit” was made within the limits of the claim prior to the date of transfer

so they released interest to to you and you received a letter from BLM?
maybe you could transfer 25% or 50% of interest to some family members.

if you submit information/details of discovery its possible they will send a letter back saying
you don't have to lower it down to 20 acres and they accept your submitted info without having to do
a complete mineral validity examination, read it somewhat here on pdf BLM Handbook 3830_1 ADMINISTRATION OF MINING CLAIMS
starting on page 241 "Requirements for Transferring Association Placer Mining Claims"

 

[Clay Diggins]

I think all you need to do is file a proof of labor and do the work. I don't think they actively go around checking the value yet the prudent man law is the original stipulation for filing the claim so I would think as long as you do the improvements and file the proof of labor that's all the blm wants. Many people here know more about this than me and maybe someone will jump in with a better reply

When the BLM challenges a claim for insufficient locators they don't have to prove a discovery the locator does. Only claims that can show a valid discovery are excepted from the one claimant per 20 acre rule. Otherwise you need to have an association for claims over 20 acres.

You don't need proof of discovery to make a claim, only the discovery of a valuable mineral is required. The initial location only protects you against subsequent prospectors and mineral trespass.

To hold a claim against a federal government challenge you need a perfected claim with discovery including both the prudent man test and the marketability test. Every placer claim with more than 20 acres per locator will eventually be challenged by the BLM.

Having proof of discovery (a perfected claim) completed makes it a simple matter to defend against the mineral challenge and any other takings. With no proof on hand you will be at the mercy of any government action. I strongly suggest claim owners accomplish their proof at the earliest possible date. It gives you protection against withdrawals, national parks and local government takings, it also raises the value of your claim on the market.

Read the Placer Examination, Principles and Practice and you will understand what locators have been doing for more than 100 years to prove their claims. With good record keeping it's not that hard if you have a good deposit.

Heavy Pans

 

[ebuyc]

This thread is perfect for me, thanks everyone! Now just need to perfect my claims!!

Having proof of discovery (a perfected claim) completed makes it a simple matter to defend against the mineral challenge and any other takings. With no proof on hand you will be at the mercy of any government action. I strongly suggest claim owners accomplish their proof at the earliest possible date. It gives you protection against withdrawals, national parks and local government takings, it also raises the value of your claim on the market.

I have been reading quite a bit about perfecting a claim - no way you will get it patented in this day and age; but with all of the federal land grabs this is the way to go! Especially for protecting your long term interests!

Thanks everyone for your input. My two offending claims are 27.5 acres and 40 acres by the way. So not the end of the world if I have to split them - I just do not want to!! I would prefer to perfect the claim for sure! Ok I have to still read the links posted above, but here is what I have on my own so far:

I think with all of my well known claim partners online postings I should be able to prove the value. I really do not like telling the BLM though where the half ounce nugget was found or any of the nuggets for that matter... But what I have read so far I have to give map locations of said discoveries and that scares me! I think I should be paid big $$$$ to let loose that info! Am I crazy for feeling that way?

This is the vague response I want to file but from what I have read I will be denied with out specific locations, estimations of deposit and value. My point here is there is no overhead, no reclamation, no environmental impact - a prudent man can easily make a profit at todays market value...

1. Map: already filed - you sent me a copy?
2. Sampling information: last year Bob pulled the 45 grams from (edited) lower claim ( I worked the bottom half and they worked the top half last year) and (edited) middle claim.
3. Reserve estimate: I estimate the above stated .5g to 1g a day on average for many many years as it is all by hand - no motorized equipment. My personal findings are expected to get better as I get closer to (edited) the middle claim.
4. Development costs: N/A all mining is done with minimal impact on the environment, again due to no motorized equipment.
5. Cost of Equipment: Pans and a sluice < $500 in total.
6. Cost of Operation: Really no operation costs other than getting to the claim.
7. Reclamation costs: No negative impact on the environment, again due to hand mining only. The claims are exposed bedrock and it is simply a matter of cleaning out the bottom of the cracks and there are millions of cracks to clean out.



Clearly this will not be sufficient... any help or suggestions on how to word things would be appreciated.

Many of you have seen the gold from my claims posted by my old claim partners (gonna miss them!).. It seems like it SHOULD be easy to prove a valuable discovery.

Underburden 's Blog posts:
• Bedrock or Bust - Gold Prospecting in Idaho: Chunky Gold
• Bedrock or Bust - Gold Prospecting in Idaho: Season Finale
• Bedrock or Bust - Gold Prospecting in Idaho: Destination Bedrock - Mission Accomplished


IdahoGoldGettR's posts:
• http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/419101-some-days-claim-worth-photo-2-a.html
• http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/426319-under-water-placer-find.html
• http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/455949-face-past-reveals-itself-my-claim.html
• http://gpex.ca/smf/index.php?topic=2743.0 Starting 2009
• http://gpex.ca/smf/index.php?topic=6028.msg111198#msg111198
• http://gpex.ca/smf/index.php?topic=15093.msg104644#msg104644

Ok have to go to work - I received the certified letter Monday and the last few days I have been stressing on this! I want to get this issue resolved asap!

Thanks again for everyone's input so far!
Chance

 

[ebuyc]

so they released interest to to you and you received a letter from BLM?
maybe you could transfer 25% or 50% of interest to some family members.

Yes and I called and asked the BLM land law gal that sent me the letter and she said I could not do that since I have sole interest filed already. That would be a nice option if it is still a possibility.



Updated:
Q: "Can I still transfer some of my interest to other parties as long as there are three people on the two claims?"

A: "You have the right to transfer ownership of your claims to whomever you want, but that won't solve the issues we listed in our Notice. Once an association placer claim has been transferred to a smaller number of claimants than originally located it, the regulations at 43 CFR 3833.33 are triggered and evidence of valuable discovery must be provided that predates that transfer. Absent this valuable discovery evidence, the claim(s) must be reduced to no more than 20 acres per claimant." -

 

[goldenIrishman]

There is no law I know of that would prevent you from filing an adjustment to the claim to bring in new partners. As with any filing, start at the county level since any original filing and or adjustments have to be documented there or you won't have a legitimate claim.

Asking the BLM about land laws is NOT the way to go! (Kind of like asking a western doctor if acupuncture will help) They're not lawyers and often give out the wrong information. Most likely she was a clerk and reading from the BLM "play book". Take the time to research the laws yourself and if needed, consult with a real lawyer that works in that branch of law. A well educated and informed miner is the worst enemy of all those alphabet government agencies..... They hate it when we know more than they do!!!!!

 

[ebuyc]

There is no law I know of that would prevent you from filing an adjustment to the claim to bring in new partners. As with any filing, start at the county level since any original filing and or adjustments have to be documented there or you won't have a legitimate claim.

Asking the BLM about land laws is NOT the way to go! (Kind of like asking a western doctor if acupuncture will help) They're not lawyers and often give out the wrong information. Most likely she was a clerk and reading from the BLM "play book". Take the time to research the laws yourself and if needed, consult with a real lawyer that works in that branch of law. A well educated and informed miner is the worst enemy of all those alphabet government agencies..... They hate it when we know more than they do!!!!!

Yes common sense here - I asked to feel the waters. See what she 'thought.'

I in no way trust anything they tell me... but if you can get the BLM to work with you and not against you it is worth trying to open a dialog. Just have to be super careful what you say to them!

Thanks for your input.

 

[winners58]

You shouldn't have any problems since you can show the claim has and continues to produce good gold.
maybe get letters from your partners stating that they have had good success over past years.
try to fill in each item on the list don't just give short answers' give them a complete package. you should be fine.
.
#####################################################################
What information should I provide to the BLM to support that my association placer mining claim(s)
had a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit at the time of transfer or conveyance?

Although the BLM’s analysis is made on a case-by-case basis, the following information will generally be helpful to the BLM
to support that a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit existed on the association placer mining claim(s) prior to the date of transfer:

1. A map showing the claim location and claim boundary.

2. Sampling information.
a. Map showing sampling locations;
b. Sample volume and interval;
c. Material sampled;
d. Raw gold recovered and raw gold weight (grams/bank cubic yards); and
e. Raw gold value ($/bank cubic yard)
i. Using the price of gold per Troy ounce at the time the discovery was made; and
ii. Gold value must be adjusted for fineness as placer gold is never 100% pure.

3. Reserve Estimate.
a. Map showing deposit boundaries;
b. Method used to calculate reserve estimate; and
c. Cut-off grade.

4. Development Costs ($/bank cubic yard).
a. Road construction;
b. Exploration;
c. Mobilization;
d. Ponds;
e. Stripping;
f. Plant construction;
g. Buildings;
h. Pipe/couplings; and/or
i. Demobilization.

5. Cost of Equipment – list all equipment and the cost less salvage value.

6. Cost of Operation ($/bank cubic yard) – equipment operation, labor and supplies.

7. Reclamation costs.

 

[Reed Lukens]

Another way to go is to simply remark, rename and refile the claims yourself under your name or you and the family. You don't have to give it up, simply refile now way before it comes open for someone else. You can also condense the amount of acreage depending on the way that it was drawn up the first time. Just remember to backdate the discovery up to the 90 days or whatever you want when you file them for yourself. Nobody will legally be able to file over you because the cancellation will not be released until you already have the new claim filed. New claim, new name, new cmc#'s plus you can just file for the land that you want and leave out all of the unneeded acreage. When drawing out claim sections, you can take the described fractional section part down to 2.5 acres, might be 1¼ but you can look it up if needed. You can see how I grid the map here for an old claim that no longer exists. I marked a 10 acre quarter section just so you can easily see it. At one time this claim was 80+ acres, when I got through and eliminated the area that I would never work, or areas that were worked out, it ended up being 18 acres. My goal was to get it under 20 and into my name only. You can always reduce the size of a claim, you just can't increase it or have it take any more lands then were originally filed on. The pic is just a reference to show you what can be done easily.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Another way to go is to simply remark, rename and refile the claims yourself under your name or you and the family. You don't have to give it up, simply refile now way before it comes open for someone else. You can also condense the amount of acreage depending on the way that it was drawn up the first time. Just remember to backdate the discovery up to the 90 days or whatever you want when you file them for yourself. Nobody will legally be able to file over you because the cancellation will not be released until you already have the new claim filed. New claim, new name, new cmc#'s plus you can just file for the land that you want and leave out all of the unneeded acreage. When drawing out claim sections, you can take the described fractional section part down to 2.5 acres, might be 1¼ but you can look it up if needed. You can see how I grid the map here for an old claim that no longer exists. I marked a 10 acre quarter section just so you can easily see it. At one time this claim was 80+ acres, when I got through and eliminated the area that I would never work, or areas that were worked out, it ended up being 18 acres. My goal was to get it under 20 and into my name only. You can always reduce the size of a claim, you just can't increase it or have it take any more lands then were originally filed on. The pic is just a reference to show you what can be done easily.

View attachment 1296200

Some good advice Reed as always.

I would like to point out that backdating Mining Locations is a crime (fraud) and invalidates the claim. Since the date of location is the date of monumenting backdating paperwork is pretty useless. Better is to document your staking day with pictures and an affidavit from a witness that has no interest in the claim. That's the stuff you can take to court and win with should another locator try to overclaim you.

These days I doubt you will be able to get away with claiming any logical fraction below 10 acres. I don't agree with that but the BLM has been interpreting location law that way for a while. Might save the Locator some administrative grief being aware of their interpretation no matter how wrong it is.

Thanks for sharing.

Heavy Pans

 

[Reed Lukens]

Yes I believe that it's a 10 acre minimum, where I said 1¼ or 2.5 acre sectionals I meant for describing that particular small section of the entire claim that you are drawing out. Where I made the 10 acre box - the 2 yellowed sections in the upper right would be 1¼ acres. Each of the small squares is half that but I describe it as 2.5 minimum when I can for each section when needed. So there would be a lot of writing to make a complete legal description of all of the yellowed areas on that map and it would be 3 claims legally because you can't cross roads. It's a very precise way to draw out a claim while leaving out the areas that are useless... Also if you take a gridded map into BLM with the claim drawn out, take an empty gridded map with you if they want to make any changes.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yes I believe that it's a 10 acre minimum, where I said 1¼ or 2.5 acre sectionals I meant for describing that particular small section of the entire claim that you are drawing out. Where I made the 10 acre box - the 2 yellowed sections in the upper right would be 1¼ acres. Each of the small squares is half that but I describe it as 2.5 minimum when I can for each section when needed. So there would be a lot of writing to make a complete legal description of all of the yellowed areas on that map and it would be 3 claims legally because you can't cross roads. It's a very precise way to draw out a claim while leaving out the areas that are useless... Also if you take a gridded map into BLM with the claim drawn out, take an empty gridded map with you if they want to make any changes.

The grids less than 10 acres you are using are what the BLM has been rejecting and closing claims over Reed. You might be familiar with the George Kendall IBLA case in 2012? Kendall was represented by James Buchal and the issue was pretty much as you describe in your post. Long story short Kendall and Buchal lost the case and all four claims.

From that decision:

Appellants failed to describe the Golden Days and The Old Days claims by complete lots despite BLM providing them notice and an opportunity to cure that defect. As a result, those claims are properly considered forfeited.

In addition, the descriptions of all of the four claims include parcels smaller than the 10-acre minimum parcel and yet do not satisfy any of the exceptions allowing a departure from that minimum, and so the claims do not satisfy the conformity requirement.

In addition, the Board has held that where the “shoestring” shape of a claim is intentional on the part of a claimant, BLM need not provide a claimant with an opportunity to conform the claim to survey, but may declare the claim null and void as a matter of law.

You can download and read that decision in PDF form by clicking HERE. There are many many more through the years since the Helit decision in 2005.

As I wrote before I don't agree with this administrative policy and I think it deserves deeper discussion, perhaps in another thread. In the meantime following your advice will result in a closed claim. I hope that's clear now to anyone who may have misunderstood.

As far as your statement:

it would be 3 claims legally because you can't cross roads.

I really don't know where you would get such an idea? There is no law or regulation I know of that says that anywhere, if you know of one please educate me.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Back to the point of the original post - I suggest ebuyc you will find that the "proof" you are proposing won't pass muster. As I've stated before proof of gold already mined is not proof of more gold in reserve, it's only proof that there was once gold found on your claim.

Go ahead and submit your proof of discovery and let the BLM guide you in what's missing to complete your proof. They often close claims by declaring your proof is inadequate. That's wrong and the IBLA has been trying to stop that bad practice. Here in Arizona many claims going back more than 80 years have been closed by the BLM recently with this bogus technique. Discovery still has to be made and proven but the BLM can't just reject your proof on it's face. They have to tell you what's lacking and give you a chance to fix it.

Here's a recent case a single miner won by himself last year. You can download the PDF William Wielgus. Read it and understand that proof of discovery must be produced but the BLM can't just close your claim because they don't accept your proof, they have to work with you. Don't let the BLM bully you if you have a valid discovery but you don't understand their internal standards for proof.

Please notice than in my previous post Kendall lost four claims even though he had the assistance of a good mining lawyer. In this case Wielgus won even though he didn't have a lawyer and his paperwork was handwritten. It's really not about money and power it's about whether you have a valid legal basis to win with. Small miners do win cases on their own all the time when they present facts and law that are right. When they are wrong they lose no matter how much money, lawyers or time they spend.

Heavy Pans

 

[winners58]

it's not in a mineral withdrawal, national monument area or wild and scenic river? if it is you want to keep them valid.
if not maybe you could amend the current ones down to 20 and file one claim for the other half of the 40 acre claim.
How much time, effort and money do you want to put into this?
find someone trustworthy that knows what they are doing and ask if they would look at your claims and do some research for your area.

just searching LR2000 for claims I know, some that had to be split some that are 50, 80, 110 acres were allowed to have just one claimant.
then I know one claim BLM told them that it had to be split up(too long), so they filed new locations into one 58 acre and the other 85, with 6 locators
then a year later they transferred them to one claimant. (edited, good catch GW)
the original claim was lost, just saying I know lots of claims that were transferred to one person
the one's I've seen were all causal level and would probably not be mined on any large scale.

does it mater if it will only be mined at a causal level compared to commercial mining?

 

[Goldwasher]

two people can't locate fifty acres<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_scratch.gif" border="0" alt="" title="icon_scratch" smilieid="270" class="inlineimg">

 

[Reed Lukens]

The grids less than 10 acres you are using are what the BLM has been rejecting and closing claims over Reed. You might be familiar with the George Kendall IBLA case in 2012? Kendall was represented by James Buchal and the issue was pretty much as you describe in your post. Long story short Kendall and Buchal lost the case and all four claims.

From that decision:


You can download and read that decision in PDF form by clicking HERE. There are many many more through the years since the Helit decision in 2005.

As I wrote before I don't agree with this administrative policy and I think it deserves deeper discussion, perhaps in another thread. In the meantime following your advice will result in a closed claim. I hope that's clear now to anyone who may have misunderstood.

As far as your statement:

I really don't know where you would get such an idea? There is no law or regulation I know of that says that anywhere, if you know of one please educate me.

Heavy Pans

Wow, Clay... My last sentence in that post reads - "The pic is just a reference to show you what can be done easily." And as far as drawing it up, it is a good reference. You need to simply read between the lines next time and not judge so quickly. There's 3 claims there today all over 10 acres. Then, you say that you can cross a major road with a claim? As long as I have known, this can't be done and that's a highway in that sample. I'm not going to look it up, I read it in the BLM manual decades ago, I know what it said then last time I filed. You know the laws a lot better then I do and if a claim can cross a major road, highway, or freeway then that's news to me. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just saying, slow down and take a breath Sorry for my poor writing skills. I've never had any problems filing my way. I draw it up so everything is easy for BLM to see on a map just like this one all marked out in yellow and they like it. The description can be a pain but it's worth it to have it drawn up nice. Thanks.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Wow, Clay... My last sentence in that post reads - "The pic is just a reference to show you what can be done easily." And as far as drawing it up, it is a good reference. You need to simply read between the lines next time and not judge so quickly. There's 3 claims there today all over 10 acres. Then, you say that you can cross a major road with a claim? As long as I have known, this can't be done and that's a highway in that sample. I'm not going to look it up, I read it in the BLM manual decades ago, I know what it said then last time I filed. You know the laws a lot better then I do and if a claim can cross a major road, highway, or freeway then that's news to me. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just saying, slow down and take a breath Sorry for my poor writing skills. I've never had any problems filing my way. I draw it up so everything is easy for BLM to see on a map just like this one all marked out in yellow and they like it. The description can be a pain but it's worth it to have it drawn up nice. Thanks.

Sorry if I offended you Reed. I certainly didn't mean to challenge any particular claim you have I was just trying to make facts available to everyone. It's the educate and inform thing I do - certainly nothing personal.

I may have misinterpreted your post. Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing I've emphasized the area I thought you were talking about. As I understood your diagram the square grid areas in yellow are about 2.5 acres in size and the red line I have added would describe the border of the claimed area.



Is that correct?

Heavy Pans

 

[rockbar]

Yes, as others have stated, you may be able to keep your original acreage. I was successful in doing so here in Az.
I compiled and presented a lengthy report that provided all the info (and more) the BLM required. It was very time-consuming, but was worth the effort. Ask that your report be kept confidential, so the public doesn't get access to it. You are providing evidence of discovery, not proof. Proof comes when a federal mineral examiner makes an official determination.
It may be helpful to get a sense from someone at your BLM as to what your odds are if you provide all the info they are asking for. In my case, I was told by the guy that was "helping" me, I had about a 1 in 10 chance of success. In my case, it seems the decision rested in the hands of the higher-ups like the state director and state geologist. So, if that's the case, you may be at the mercy of the whims of the equivalent where you reside.
After you have submitted your documentation, you may receive an official certified letter entitled Acknowledgement of Documentation Submitted. That letter will tell you whether you were successful. If you are not, you may choose to fight it and ask what additional evidence is needed.

I believe the following info was already provided, but it is what I used as a guide.
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/az/pdfs.Par.3386.File.dat/transfer-assoc-placer-claim.pdf

I can provide more details in a PM. Best of luck!