Rinehart to be heard

[ratled]

Just a heads up the Rinehart case will be heard on June 1st

ratled

James Buchal
C/O Brandon Rinehart case
3425 S.E. Yamhill, Suite 100,
Portland , OR 97214

 

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[Asmbandits]

Not necessarily replying to anyone, I feel the consensus is that I was out of line for pointing what I did so Im further elaborating on my first post to hopefully create some clarification.

 

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[Goldwasher]

Im not knocking anyone for their methods. I don't see how someone who is a prospector could rally against others who are working within the congressional acts..thats what environutz are for.

Funny thing about a mining district is typically all the prospectors in the district got together and regulated themselves. size of claim, number of claims allowed per miner. The criteria for moving on and abandonment. As well as accepted methods of stripping ground. Actually more strict than today. I don't see Victor falling in line with a mining district. I've though about forming a local district. First rule would be that you own a claim and are developing it with a plan. anyone who you allow work it is basically operating in accordance with your sampling plan and within a written lease.... for the sake of integrity and education.

I fully agree with the definitions given as to what a sniper is. It is a form of prospecting. Sampling not so much. I have a claim I snipe cracks and crevices because the are highgrade concentrations. I sample overburden and various presure zones to see where the gold may concentrate, move through or come from. A set samples can be a pan from various layers or across the water course. Or a three yard by volume cut across a bar to see if running bulk material is worth it. When you work textbook small seasonal gold bearing streams you find out eventually how spotty they are and how differently flood layers accumulate, seasonally strip and concentrate. You don't know crap until you run some dirt. That "Frog leg" piece I got the other day came off of the hardpack layer not bed rock..from about the fifth shovel load into the box. I also 'sniped numerous pieces right off the bottom cracks and out of the decomposing bedrock. Right where your " supposed" to find it. Yes we found gold in concentration in the general area from random sampling. It was the decision to strip and then discover a drop in the bedrock that has put us on a pretty damned good hole.

The small scale community does a fabulous job of educating eachother. It's the guys who educate themselves. have integrity, spend hours researching and even more time in the field who have the most to offer their fellow prospectors. I help out as many begginers as I can. I want there to be more prospectors. I've never worried about filling the ranks. i know how much gold is out there and how many places there are to go. I have never ever had the feeling that clubs or the 'TYPE" of person who joins a club(is there a type) are any kind of threat to my success, access, or longevity. I fully understand why people join. I think if clubs could attract more people like me they would be better off. But, they don't attract me. I have before supported them and their members because I don't want ANY of our rights taken.

Like I have pointed out many times they don't always make decisions based on consensus. A few of them are actually pretty dang annoying in their actions right now...I still have seen nothing that creates the impression that they have the actual goal of ruining everything for everybody. Members speaking up is definetly needed. But, I can't hate because the help and support. The fund raising for the fight is there...It's very very obvious. They may not be perfect but, they enable the conversation. And provide info on where to try and help.

No one is holding a gun to anyones head. There has to be lawyers. Someone is a SCOUNDREL simply because they are a lawyer. that has got to be one of the most rediculous points you have ever tried to make Victor. The anti mining side is well monied with taxpayer money. They have more lawyers than you can shake a stick at. The one who gets retained often for these issues has helped out as much as any lawyer could really. There has been a lot of positive movement over the last two years because of him. I gaurantee Brandon doesn't thing he is a SCOUNDREL. Your opinion of any lawyer is obviously very low. You are projecting your own disatisfaction with others lifestyle on the situation. I still can not wrap my head around it. Seems more and more that when no one but, you are out digging will you ever find what you are looking for.. I hope you never find it........

As far as clubs/orginzations not educating....or working on improving methods....these comments are based on your opinion and so far off base its rediculous. If it really bugged you so much you would do your part to make it better. Instead of bashing people you don't know and refuse to even hear the opinions or experiences of. It was very obvious to me from your very first posts on this forum where you stood....and that is ALONE and ready to bash and insult anyone who doesn't fit your vision. The only reason you commented on this thread is to get yet another chance to be condescending and insulting to people who simply have a different way of doing things.

 

[goldenIrishman]

I've got to stand with GW on many of his points. With the rare exceptions, most small scale prospectors and miners enjoy sharing their knowledge with those just starting out. Someone was kind enough to help me out waaayyy back when (today it feels like when Moses was in knee-pants) and to keep the lessons I've learned to myself would be a very poor way to pay those friends back.

When it comes to clubs, you have to remember that they're not all created equally! You've got all different types and methods of management that vary from club to club. I really think that Jan and I lucked out to have the Mohave Prospectors Assoc. so close to us. Great group of people and a very dynamic membership. We have a lot of seasonal members (Spell that "SnowBirds") but a good number of locals as well. There's always a mind or two around to pick for ideas on how to tackle those problems that pop up from time to time while mining. The group has formed a "Claims Location Committee" to research and locate new ground for the club to file on. We've started getting classes on how to do proper due dilligence, map reading/land navigation, and how to get the most from your gear set up and ready to go. So all in all I'd have to rate MPA as one of the better clubs out there.

 

[MadMarshall]

I just read some of my earlier posts. I could only find as far back Dec 2012. Talk about foolish. Kind of interesting to see the contrast in my attitude from then to now.. You know deep down I wish I could share everything, I really enjoyed makin the crappy vids. Lots have changed over the years I suppose.
But regardless of how I got here its who I am and I am thankful I do not stand alone just one of the more outspoken I suppose.
I do not agree with most of what you write. Most exspeacilly in regards to clubs. But I see no reason to reiterate my opinions..

Anyway let me end with this...
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/501741-not-flake-not-nugget.html

Not a frogleg.. But a sign from above... V for Victory..

 

[gold tramp]

Right on Marshall,
fulltime is a lonley place to be.


GT.......................

 

[russau]

..._ V for victory!

 

[Goldwasher]

When we don't hold each other accountable, when we don't bring solutions and logic to the table, if all we do is complain and point fingers.....we all lose.

if I'm trying to WIN at anything it's that.

I'm not ok with support groups doing it to drum up donations...and I sure as hell not ok with prospectors being part of it.....at the end of the day the battle still goes on and at this point the anti- mining interests hope we destroy ourselves because they know the bedrock of their fight is horse

The more these conversations take place the more likely they are to get back to club leaders etc.

I still stand firmly behind the fact that EVERY member of any club or group I have ever met never mentioned to me how much money they were trying to make....what angle they were trying to dangle....or what they wanted to chenge about the small scale community. They are members to meet other like minded people first typically. Sometimes to gain access, yet most have ample ground of their own to work...and to try and be part of the orginzied fight against the people who don't want them digging at all. Like I said it's the members...the better the members the better the leadership will be.

Joining a club has never been on my radar. yet, I know enough members at this point that I can't fault them in any way for the choices they make.There is ample evidence of the positve effects they do have drumming up support and educating newer prospectors.

 

[cazisme]

I wouldn't want to join any club that would have me as a member.

 

[MadMarshall]

When we don't hold each other accountable, when we don't bring solutions and logic to the table, if all we do is complain and point fingers.....we all lose.

if I'm trying to WIN at anything it's that.

Until we clean house and start holding the practices of these clubs accountable then you are most certainly right, we will lose.. But not before they milk us for everything we got... The opposition can be held at bay by attorneys and other scoundrels in that line of work. These clubs or activist let them go. Believe me the wheels will turn and hell we might be to actually move forward. How many years of limbo to get where we are today? You think these mining clubs are interested in resalotuin? If their was resolution the majority of these clubs would wither and die.. They exsist soley on conflict. Who gives a crap what the leadersintentions are. The model they use to reach their goals is a foolish one. well unless done for profit. Anyway the motives concern me not. its the results I am interested in.. I fail to enterain the notion for one second that the vast majority of these clubs serve any real purpose at all. Let them drop off the face of the earth now nothing would come of itxcept people would have to be a little more responsible themselves.
I know members of many clubs and I would never speak ill of anyone of them. Its just business their is no individuals in business.
GW its easy to hear your frustration in some of the clubs. Loyalty is a fickled thing..
I personaly do not care what practices the opposition uses. I am too aware of the scandalous nature of their support groups and how many activist groups their are working against us .. The profiteering that goes on. So let me get this straight everyone can stand their and accuse IZZy and whoever else on inmoral practices? and yet your solution to fix these problems are by mimicking them?
Why am I not surprised...

 

[Goldwasher]

Lawyers don't do things on their own accord.....what clubs and rights groups so is not unlawful in any way.....and so far from what TSF does it is not a valid comparison. You absolutly do speak illl of club members and cleary know nothing of prospecting clubs other than the fact that you just don't like them. Again it is very easy to see that all of this is based on your opinion and not experience....but hey I understand sticking up for yourself

 

[Goldwasher]

California population almost forty million people. around thirty eight million when permits were still being issued. An average of three thousand permits issued a year If I remember correctly that inluded out of state permitee's. Someone will hopefully chime in as to the first year permits were required. I think it was early seventies. And it was reasonable like five dollars.
With such a small user base if it were 'Left" up to individual battles there would not be a dredging discussion right now. It would be something people used to do. Granted essentially that is the situation now. In the interim and before 2009 the permits weren't capped. That was just the amount of people who dredged. what like a millionth of the states population(using brain and coffee no calculator)
Mining districts lost or gave up their powers long ago. as individualized as prospectors are they obvioslly still feel the need to gather and discuss their situations. From what they do in the field to the issues they battle with regulations, resource managers, and jurisdictional enforcement agencies. It seems pretty dang logical to me that there would be "clubs"
AMRA...ask someone in Alabama what AMRA is...UH...UM....American mans racing association....sounds pretty nascar to me ya'll!!! They do know what GPAA is because they've been around for a long time and have chapters there. AMRA's membership is so low it's funny. Considering the claims they have and the support they will give their members if there are issues. Does Shannon try to be on the radar and get into it with BLM, Forest Service, and Fish and Wildlife? Yes! He also will stand toe to toe with someone and inform them of the actual laws and rights we have and guess what....more than once the dude with the badge just walks away. If there were more Shannon Poes we would be better off as prospectors. Even though I still say they shouldn't back the MMAC I still back them even though I'm not a member...YET!!!! Everyone who has met Shannon will tell you that he is in no way thriving on this conflict. He would much rather he and everyone else who wants to be out dredging.
The anti-mining group knows how low the numbers are that are opposing them. Thats why they don't fight fair and run every angle they can and spread un true science and propaganda. They are the ones hoping to milk us dry. It is the only way they can get what they want. Believe me that fight will continue until you are only allowed to dip a pan in certain segregated areas. They bank on labeling what we do as an unnecesary and harmful recreational activity.

Stop dredging, show it shouldn't be an activity avalable to citizens of the state. Then make mining claims and the process leading to a claim unavailable. If there is no way to locate a claim then there is no reason to allow prospecting on public lands.

It sounds impossible to me any many. Yet, even though there were only three thousand dredgers. There are maybe six hundred thousand people in the state who at least dip a pan(less more likely) whos to say that the state won't figure out the justifacation to shut us down.(all prospecting) And don't hold your hat on federal rights....look at the firearms laws in our state. Not to mention they put a state wide lead ban in place under the premise that there is an increased chance of lead getting into the water from fragments in gut piles spread by scavengers. Even though the number of hunters in the state has dropped for years so the risk is dropping on its own. Oh and you also never hear about lead poisoning...unless you live in Michigan that is.( i know you hate guns Victor so im sure this makes you happy too)

The number of small local clubs that exist soley to support the local prospectors of the region far out numbers the few( less than eight) larger ones that spend significant money in the courts. The vast majority of them have less than a hundred(high estimate) members. They maintain claims that are owned by members acting within the law.They make huge attempts to be ethical and are huge on conservation. That can not be said for the vast majority of public land users who are doing what they do solely for recreation. Hunters and anglers like myself who do it to help feed my family and maintain my cultural heritage would be the exception. There are less of us every year.

I am very very proud of the people who give to the dredging community even though they never have dredged . They do it because they see the big picture. They know that rights taken are stepping stones to more taking. This tiny portion of our population has so much more integrity than the rest of the people in our state.

Of course none of this will matter to someone who is going to do what they want regardless of laws and regulations. What would be the point of fighting it even?

Its a lot easier to fault others for their integrity I guess.

 

[MadMarshall]

Let me say this. So filling in our ranks with recreational prospectors is the answer? the fix? You think recreational community is the same as the actual people who wish to use our mining laws for what they were intended? You think the land use is the same? You talk about Culteral heritage and making use of the land for practicle purpose. Its my one of my goals to make sure that the people who actually rely on the land still are able to use it. And let me tell you this.. You are right the opposition about saying its a recreational activity.. And in truth how I see these clubs operatate I am inclined to agree.. But what amazes me is how hard groups like AMRA GPAA and others work so hard to make it so. Anyway seems you find yourself between a rock and a hard place.. You think we can have it both ways? Maybe you do.. Me I can not say I am that optimistic.. We do not live in a place of compromise nor practicilaty.
You say these guys rather be dredging or getting gold? I say good I wish they would do it. I suspect they are more valuble to the cause if they could actually prove that they earned a living finding gold. Hell that alone is enough cancel out the word Recreation out.. But alas for whatever reason? Maybe its because they cant and could never make any money prospecting/mining. maybe its because they were soley reliant on just one type of prospecting/mining.. Anyway whatever the reason it doesn't seem to be the actual case just talk.
As far as guns are concerned I do not hate them I just hate idiots giving them away as prize.. For me guns are not a toy nor a prize but a responsibility not a sense of entitlement. And just like evertything else these clubs and groups will exploit anything and everything and forgoe any actual responsibility. But guns are another topic. Its amazing what a little personal responsibility can do for oneself and others. But alas the majority has no sense of responsibility but entiltlment instead.. This is not a topic I choose not to go into.. Other then you using it as to what? Against me? I thought you had better in your arsenal. I mean other then me as an individual.. One thing to attack my ideas another to try to ise it as an attack agaist me.. But in truth when its comes to the vast majority of dealing with clubs and the like I often find myself attacked as a person.. Whatever sticks they have at their disposal. more like twigs actually. It literaly does me no harm.
I hear the conflict in your writings. Not so black and white is it? You think by supporting the recreational community you are protecting yourself and others like you? I am of a different mind. I think you are nailing your coffin. As far as these clubs are concerned they do not serve anything remotely that's comes close to mimicking mining districts. They can say whatever they like but their actions speak the true story. another thing I would say is that the majority of donations afford these people the time to do nothing.. a small part of the donations go to the actual cause . I wonder how much more money we would have if the money went straight to the cause instead of funding and promoting the cause.. Does that make sense?
Do we really need to keep people informed? personaly I am of the mind if you don't know whats goin on in your community and the prblems we face and need a facebook udate to tell you who to write or hate or whatever BS propaganda you probably never cared. Personaly I don't need or want these people in the ranks. no offense enjoy your life have a good day.. If people really had more to lose then entitlement then I suspect they would know about it. Most exspeacilly if its something its they come to rely on..
But truthfully the more I write the more lost I feel.

Hopefully I will get my truck fixed soon. Be forwarned probably no sooner then Friday.. I know its torture for me too. Just look outside... Awesome weather to be out and about..

 

[russau]

I have to agree with a lot of points that MadMarshall has pointed out! Ive seen a lot of new interest in mining since these T.V. shows started popping up and MORE gubermint interest has also popped up in what we are doing. In fact , here in Misery since people started calling Missouri Department of Natural Resources about "where can I go prospecting in Missouri" the Mo. dept. of NR has decided that "they" need to have regulations and a permit........... ALL because of them TV shows...I decided that I needed to check into this and now Im being watched by MDNR. There is NO claimable land here in Misery! its all private or state / county managed PUBLIC land.

 

[gold tramp]

Clubs and there masses are just to damn hard on the resources.
Our planet is just to small boys.
GT..........

 

[Goldwasher]

Clubs and there masses are just to damn hard on the resources.
Our planet is just to small boys.
GT..........

your desert area is recreated in by MILLIONS of users dirt bikers, shooting dirt road explorers etc. You are in one of the few areas that has large subsurface holdings and a few operating mines. Those weekenders doing what they do have way more of an impact with their presence than any gully hunter like you GT.. the damage they do to certain areas that are constantly visited is terrible. I grew up in Perris Ca. area we used to spend days out at a time and see no one. its not like that anymore. and as usual it is not the prospectors having the largest negative impact...how many canyons over would you have to go before you run into someone who is actually doing what you do.

 

[Goldwasher]

I have to agree with a lot of points that MadMarshall has pointed out! Ive seen a lot of new interest in mining since these T.V. shows started popping up and MORE gubermint interest has also popped up in what we are doing. In fact , here in Misery since people started calling Missouri Department of Natural Resources about "where can I go prospecting in Missouri" the Mo. dept. of NR has decided that "they" need to have regulations and a permit........... ALL because of them TV shows...I decided that I needed to check into this and now Im being watched by MDNR. There is NO claimable land here in Misery! its all private or state / county managed PUBLIC land.

you do bring an interesting perspective Russ. The difference between states like yours that have no "public" lands. I have lived in Texas and spent time in Tennesee. As anyone who lives in one of those states knows if you want to go dig looking for gold or gems you are going to pay to play. So, a tv show about running huge mines is going to give some people the bug sure. Is it going to flood the country with new prospectors hardly not. States are getting more heavy handed on prospectors ALL because of tv shows I think not.

Numerous times over the last few years there have been articles 'THE NEW GOLD RUSH" related to the drought and price of gold. They are always about the new opportunities for some one to go out and have their chance and get rich. If you spend any real time out in the fiels it gets pretty obvious that not many people are taking those stories to heart.

Just like up in the metal detecting forums the tv shows are RUINING metal detecting....." i used to get permission all the time to hunt...now that those darned shows are on, people say NO your going to ruin my property just like those guys on tv"....HORSEFEATHERS.

For every ten people that picks up a pan for the first time or detector. Maybe one of them will still be detecting or digging on a semi serious level two years later. But, when they hear that authorities are coming down on people that are still doing it they have a much greater chance of lending support to keep those who still dig and beep. The reason they stopped is because they are people and to be good at these activities you must have dedication and patience. Something most people posess in low levels .

If the laws were to change as far as who is allowed to work on public lands it will be a lot more like the areas of the country that have only private land. Only those with deep pockets or those with no regard for laws will be the ones digging.

Victor has mentioned more than once that the criteria for access should be the fact that you do this for a wage. No one is born with a gold pan in their hand. More than one person has learned about panning somehow thousands have the desire to make money at this the sytem in place is supposed to encourage and enable that. The main thin stopping people who do posess some working capitol and the patience and dedication to work claims in a more productive way, are regulations that go directly against those enabling acts.

I would like to know where you would get in line...and once at the front what boxes would you check.

Would you be submitting weekly reports to some government office proving you are actually working. would you have to sign up for a lottery every season like trying to get into one of the prime deer hunting areas?

If say something happened in your family and you had to take care of your mom for six months would you lose your status?

Should you have to go to a school for a while to show some sort of difference between you and any other person who wanted to give it a try.

Keeping in mind this would be a totally new system put in place. And it would involve a lot of segregation how would someone show they had the RIGHT to partake in this system?
Ever really think much of the word "ENTITLEMENT" Believing you deserve something just because of what you do kinda fits.

For many prospecting for minerals locating a cliam and selling them is part time. Producing minerals when their value is low and being able to hold them until you can sell them for more profit is a benifit to a prospector. being forced to sell your minerals at a low market value sucks. Diversifacation allows people to avoid that situation.
Creating a system that forces you to sell doesn't sound all that good to me.
A whole new set of criteria, rule, timelines, activity thresholds,reporting, and enforcement would have to be put in place.

The system as it is and has been for more than hundred of years is much more fair. It does a pretty good job of sorting out the lazy and undedicated. There are not more prospectors or gold miners now than there were in the past.

I've asked already and doubt I will ever get the answer.

How is someone harmed if. They don't have a claim, spend a great majority of their time in remote areas accsessed by only the most dedicated. Who only works with simple tools and is quite succesful harmed in any way by people getting together and working in only certain areas that are much more easily accesable and quite frankly not as rich?
ESPECIALLY if they say they will do what they want anyway!
Conflict Nah. True it isn't black and white. I don't believe the reasons given by an individual as to why they deserve something and others don't are either.

I support people in the community supporting the community. There have been a lot of allegations levied against clubs as an evil yet no real tangible evidence merely personal opinion.

My tone will change when I'm hit with...."you crack me up"...inferring I am either dumb, sensless, un caring, not paying attention, selfish, greedy....or just one of those classified as those who sholdn't have the privelage to dig for gold like I've done more than two thirds of my life.
I don't think that was said because you think im funny...so label your attacks but, expect some zingers if thats the way your gonna start conversations...keeping in mind I know there is no desire to have a real conversation just the need to label and segregate.

My hope is that the right for ANYONE who wants to look for valuable minerals on open public lands is maintained. My intent is to make sure that anyone who gets involved is educated as to the rights they have and should not take from others. And to educate them on technique and research. And hopefully strengthen their integrity and create more people who know that prospectors and miners are in no way bad people because of the activities they take part in. Who they happen to be as citizens and individuals is only an issue when they start harming the environment or get greedy and make poor choices and make other prospectors look bad.

I have never had the notion in my head that someone who holds land I would love to prospect is wrong for having it. I am not in anyway worried that "recreational" prospecting in anyway diminishes my opportunities in the field.So, I guess nothing from the average person has had any negative affect on the community. Sure if you look hard enough you could characterize it in such a way . However the only metric of that is personal opinion and perspective. I have seen no evidence of that proven in this thread anywhere.

The solution to maintain mining and prospecting is to not fight anything the regulators and environutz throw our way...and to get less people intersted in it??

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Goldwasher]

If your not at the table your on the menu!!!

 

[Terry Soloman]

Oh for goodness sake! While this thread is entertaining, the only thing it really does is show us just how disagreeable gold prospectors and miners are. Heck, we can’t even agree on the words “recreational,” or “hobbyist.” I have seen gold prospecting from a couple of different vantage points – greenhorn weekend prospector; experienced placer miner; and a miner of gold miner’s (running my gold prospecting school at Rich Hill for 12-years).

The overwhelming majority of people buying sluices; dredges; dry washers; High bankers; and Metal Detectors over the last 10-years, are “Weekend Warriors,” or “Hobbyists.” They are 45 – 68 years old, Caucasian, and are either retired or have middle-class or higher disposable incomes.

As a placer miner and prospector growing up in Arizona, I had the opportunity to watch the evolution of gold prospecting from the mid- 1960s, through today. Gold hunting really began to take off commercially in the late 1990s. I started seeing a lot more guys wearing Rolex watches and driving expensive Jeeps in the Weaver and Bradshaw mountains. For most of those guys, I would say as much as 95%, it was one and done. A bucket list experience that could be checked before moving on to their next adventure. I saw a money making opportunity, and I bought dozens of nearly new Fisher, and Minelab machines for resale.

Many folks who started gold prospecting back in the 1960s and ‘70s, are SURE we are going to give up our “rights” under the original mining laws drafted in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] Century, if we call ourselves “hobbyists” or heaven forbid, “recreational” prospectors/miners. In reality, we could call ourselves “Sally,” and it wouldn’t matter a gram!
The ONLY key to unlock the problems facing small miners today, is cash. Unless we can generate enough interest to start overriding the green meanie’s propaganda machine, the local governments are just going to tax and permit us to financial death.

 

[Goldwasher]

I agree 100% and those dudes who pay to play practically gaurantee serious prospectors cheap gear and almost zero missed opportunity

 

[Goldwasher]

And I really really really hope atleast one time Victor AFTER HE SELLS IT ...shows us some mega giant lump that he had to huff out of Wherevertheheck.