Development of the mining Resources of The United States.

[MadMarshall]

Clay.

What constitutes a Discovery? How does the prudent man test or the Marketability test apply now a days? Do they apply differently for the type of use a claim is intended for? Example club claims are intended for recreational use the gold values on a claim are not what is exploited for a profit. clubs claim value are Soley in their recreational qualities. How does this apply to non profit clubs their claims used as an incentive for donations?
Claim owners who lease claims are still reliant on the actual gold values there claims hold.
Claim owners who wish to extract the mineral for a profit are reliant on the gold values on particular claim.

even if a recreational claim held any gold values.. The claim is not worked in a manner that would constitute any kind of efficiency in extracting the mineral deposit. Since the owners of club claims do not rely on an actual valuable deposit but more so the opportunity of finding gold.

What defines a "prudent man" in mining law when it was written?

So I make a discovery how do I know how much land to stake? As much as can? as many family members as I can get to sign? Does it matter that I only sampled a 10feet section and found gold? so I claimed 160 acres?
Is mining law written with the intention of economic explotation of minerals? or just in general?


Your questions about Discovery, Prudent Man, Marketability and Recreation use are all about miners rights and obligations under federal law. Those are all questions for land management of the public lands. Only the United States can challenge an existing claim on one of those legal points - other miners, claim owners and prospectors can not. Those challenges are handled administratively and ultimately resolved in a Federal Court. Other prospectors have no part in a Federal suit against claim validity.

The subject of this thread is about a dispute between miners. Disputes between rival claimants are a civil matter. It's up to the adverse claimants to settle the dispute between them or sue to have a judge decide. County, or in some cases, State Courts are where those civil disputes are ultimately settled. The Federal government has no part in a civil suit between claimants.

The reason the subject of this thread and the subject you bring up have nothing to do one with the other is because Congress in the very first Mining Act made that single point a law. Here is the whole 1865 Mining Act:




That no possessory action between individuals in any of the courts of the United States for the recovery of any mining title, or for damages to any such title, shall be affected by the fact that the paramount title to the land on which such mines are, is in the United States, but each case shall be adjudged by the law of possession. Pretty slick huh? The Congress just permanently ducked the United States out of having anything to do with one miners dispute with another. No matter how wronged you feel you have been treated by another claimant the Feds want nothing to do with your dispute.

Same thing the other way around. Short of lobbying to get a law changed you can't make the Federal government enforce the laws you want enforced against another claim and you can't challenge another miners claim based on Discovery, Prudent Man, Marketability or Recreation because it's not your job to administer the public lands.






Quote Originally Posted by MadMarshall View Post

Is mining law written with the intention of economic explotation of minerals? or just in general?
Specifically the mining laws were enacted to:




An Act to promote the Development of the mining Resources of The United States. So I guess just about anyone could argue that as long as the law wasn't violated and mining resources were developed then it's all good.

Nothing in there about economic exploitation or even minerals although I can see how you would reasonably assume those were involved. I just find it more useful to know the actual words used rather than go with my interpretation of what might have been meant. It saves misunderstanding down the line.

I was serious when I wrote those were good questions Marshall. Why not start a thread with that subject and maybe we can cover both the civil and the law side in different places so readers don't confuse one with the other?

Heavy Pans

 

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[MadMarshall]

An act to promote development of mining resources...
What does this mean legally? How should one interpret this if not for economical pursuits? What is considered development of mining resources?

 

[MadMarshall]

I am not exactly sure on how best to approach this topic? where is the best place to begin? maybe with discovery?

 

[winners58]

there are the Mining laws then after 1976 with FLPMA BLM came up with the Regulations that are somewhat the interpretations on how administer them.
.
a good read is the BLM H 3830_1 Administration Handbook
.
Forest Service 2810 Mining Claims handbook (doc format) www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/fsm/2800/2810.doc
.
adverse claim between a miner and the government H-3870 handbook
.
American Law relating to Mines and Mineral lands - C.H. Lindley
.
BLM page Explanation of "Discovery"

 

[goldenIrishman]

Mad.... Anytime you get more than one person attempting to claim the same ground you're in for a lot of confusion. To avoid any confusion (or at least keep it to a minimum) you have to start your records while doing your first stage of "Due Diligence". For me that's with checking the current county records before I even go into an area to check it out. I check the last few claims in the section(s) and then take the county records and compare them to what the LR2000 shows for those claims. Even here you have to be careful thanks to the BLMs attitude of "Why do today what we can do six months from now" when it come to updating the LR2000.

I'm sure that you've seen my posts in several different threads where I'm dealing with some areas where the claim records are so convoluted I felt like I should have been a detective after figuring out what was going on. Even with having figured out the Who, What, Where and Why of what went on with those claims, I don't feel legally safe in trying to locate a claim in these areas because the records are STILL so screwed up. I'm NOT a mining lawyer and I'd like to be able to avoid having to pay one if at all possible. I'm pretty darned sure I could prove my case in court if I had to but I'm still trying to decide if it's WORTH the hassle if it was to come to that.

If you'd like all the details feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to go into depth on it. Just don't want to take a chance of tipping me hand in case the other claimant reads this forum.

 

[MadMarshall]

http://www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/fsm/2800/2810.doc
2811.5 - Requirements for Valid Mining
7. File in the appropriate office of the Bureau of Land Management a copy of the affidavit of assessment work or notice of intent to hold. The copy must be filed by December 30 of each year following the calendar year in which the claim was located.

With the fulfillment of these requirements, a claimant obtains a valid mining claim. So long as such conditions continue to exist, the claimant is entitled to possession of the claim for mining purposes. It is optional with the claimant whether to apply for a patent. Patent procedures and requirements, are described in FSM 2815.

The term "valid claim" often is used in a loose and incorrect sense to indicate only that the ritualistic requirements of posting of notice, monumentation, discovery work, recording, annual assessment work, payment of taxes, and so forth, have been met. This overlooks the basic requirement that the claimant must discover a valuable mineral deposit. Generally, a valid claim is a claim that may be patented.

Although the statues require the discovery of a valuable mineral deposit prior to the location of a claim, the courts and the Department of the Interior have recognized a right of possession, in the absence of the discovery required by statute, if the claimant is diligently prospecting. The Forest Service recognizes this principle, and in keeping with the policy of encouraging bona fide prospecting and mining, will not discourage or unduly hamper these activities. Rather, the
Forest Service should aid the legitimate activities of a prospector making bona fide efforts to obtain a discovery on a good prospect. On the other hand, the Forest Service should oppose attempts by prospectors to build permanent structures, cut timber, build or maintain roads, unless authorized by a special use permit or approved operating plan.A mining claim may lack the elements of validity and be invalid in fact, but it must be recognized as a claim until it has been finally declared invalid by the Department of the Interior or Federal courts.

A claim unsupported by a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit is invalid from the time of location, and the only rights the claimant has are those belonging to anyone to enter and prospect on National Forest lands.


........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Why does the right of possession suprecede discovery? Does it conflict with the governing agency ability to verifying actual discoveries?
Am I correct to assume that their is no pretense to challenge a discovery?

 

[winners58]

Development of how it will be mined at a profit takes time. the right of possession protects your rights from others.

from requirements to show discovery when transferring a claim to less owners than at the time of location.
.
A discovery has not been made until sufficient work has been done to show that the material can
be produced and sold at a profit under conditions present at the time of transfer. The mineral
deposit possessing in and of itself a present or prospective value for mining purposes must be
actually and physically exposed in sufficient quantities to justify development of the mining claim
through actual mining operations. If the deposit requires additional exploration to delineate the
ore reserves and determine grade or quality before development may be confidently started, a
discovery has not been made.
Sampling must have occurred on the subject claim.
You will need several quantitative samples to adequately show a discovery of an association placer mining claim.
Sampling should be done at as many places on the claim as may be necessary to establish the continuity and extent of the
deposit. Until sampling has been completed, it is rarely possible to develop anything more than
an informed guess as to the nature of any deposit. There must be something beyond a mere
surmise, speculation, belief, or geological theory or impression of the existence of minerals on a
mining claim to constitute a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit that would satisfy the
regulations for transferring or conveying an association placer mining claim. Mere indications of
existence of minerals within the boundaries of the claim or on adjoining lands are not sufficient to
support a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit.

1. A map showing the claim location and claim boundary.
2. Sampling information.
a. Map showing sampling locations;
b. Sample volume and interval;
c. Material sampled;
d. Raw gold recovered and raw gold weight (grams/bank cubic yards); and
e. Raw gold value ($/bank cubic yard)
i. Using the price of gold per Troy ounce at the time the discovery was made; and
ii. Gold value must be adjusted for fineness as placer gold is never 100% pure.
3. Reserve Estimate.
a. Map showing deposit boundaries;
b. Method used to calculate reserve estimate; and
c. Cut-off grade.
4. Development Costs ($/bank cubic yard).
a. Road construction;
b. Exploration;
c. Mobilization;
d. Ponds;
e. Stripping;
f. Plant construction;
g. Buildings;
h. Pipe/couplings; and/or
i. Demobilization.
5. Cost of Equipment — list all equipment and the cost less salvage value.
6. Cost of Operation ($/bank cubic yard) — equipment operation, labor and supplies.
7. Reclamation costs

 

[Hefty1]

I...would not go by the rules or regs that the FS or BLM puts out, but go by Laws. Period!

 

[MadMarshall]

I...would not go by the rules or regs that the FS or BLM puts out, but go by Laws. Period!

Makes me feel like I am back at square one. So how true is this statement? why do the laws protect me from regulation? How does one identify which FS/BLM regs should be followed and which I can lawfully ignore? Does it boil down on ones intent on his use for the public lands does this dictate ones lawful use of the public lands?


Also what is the Defintion of "Prudent Man" as of the time it was written in Mining Law?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Also what is the Defintion of "Prudent Man" as of the time it was written in Mining Law?

The distinction between law and regulation matters. You ask about Prudent Man as if it were a law? There is no Prudent Man law. Read and understand the Mining Acts (law) so you can understand when regulations apply and when they don't.

California seems to have abandoned the idea that education is for the purpose of maintaining an informed electorate. If you don't understand the basic functions and restrictions on government you can't be an effective participant in the Republic.

I'll give you a quick breakdown of the basic structure of your government:

1. The people through their representatives in Congress makes Law.

2. The executive (office of the President) enforces the laws passed by Congress. The executive agencies publish regulations so their employees will know how to enforce the Laws passed by Congress.

3. The Courts decide cases based on the Laws passed by Congress. Courts sometimes need to restate or interpret what Congress meant when they passed a law.

These functions do not cross over. That's what's meant by the "separation of powers". The president does not make or interpret laws. The Congress does not enforce or interpret laws. The courts do not make or enforce laws.

When you see an Act of Congress that is a law.
When you see a regulation that is an agency rule for enforcing laws.
When you see a Court decision that is the Courts deciding how law applies to a particular issue.

Once you understand the structure of government you need to study the laws that Congress passed before you can understand when or if the regulations apply. If there is no law to base a regulation on the regulation is of no effect. Regulations not based on law are unlawful and unenforceable.

Study the 1865, 1866 and 1872 Mining Acts to get the basis of mining law. There is more to mining law than those three Acts of Congress but until you understand those laws you can't possibly understand the later Mining Acts, regulations or court decisions.

Learning this stuff is a lot of work. Not as much work as you've put into the other skills you've acquired for prospecting but just as necessary to be successful. Those skills regarding understanding mining law have been part of a prospectors toolbox for as long as mining has taken place in this country. If an "ignorant" miner from the 1870's learned this important part of prospecting you can too. It's just one of the many skills prospectors must learn to be successful.

Educate yourself and prosper!

Heavy Pans

 

[Jeff95531]

My favorite part of the above?

"When you see an Act of Congress that is a law.
When you see a regulation that is an agency rule for enforcing laws.
When you see a Court decision that is the Courts deciding how law applies to a particular issue."

So well stated. And correct me if wrong but of the three, the weakest link would be the one in the middle. It allows for all those "gray areas" and the ensuing "fun" it perpetuates onto #3 until it winds up back in front of #1. Repeat.