Bad news California

[Clay Diggins]

Rinehart lost the CA Supreme Court appeal:

We conclude the state‘s moratorium is not preempted.
The federal laws Rinehart relies upon reflect a congressional intent to afford prospectors secure possession of, and in some instances title to, the places they mine. But while Congress sought to protect miners‘ real property interests, it did not go further and guarantee to them a right to mine immunized from exercises of the states‘ police powers. We
reverse the Court of Appeal.

You can download the whole decision HERE.

Heavy Pans

 

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[kcm]

We are not fighting science,,,, we are fighting an ideology.

 

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[bigAUdog]

"Fortunately, the question of federal preemption is presently before the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, concerning the somewhat broader Oregon ban on motorized mining." Buchal

Folks if our best opportunity resides with the Ninth Circuit our goose is cooked! The ninth is more ideology driven then any other court in the U.S.. How in the world did we allow ourselves to be placed in a position to be judged by fanatical ideologues? By the way, studies are like statistics...they can be manipulated and presented in a manner that fits the author's purpose. Bottom line, small equipment dredging does NOT harm the environment in any significant manner -that book has already been published.

 

[Tuolumne]

i hope I can get my stream certified non fish habitat so I can get my water clearance and wiggle around within the regs.

There never was or will be salmon on my fork, no native sucker or lamprey, no indians records eating from this water- there is non native rainbow and brown, and I am already taking care of the problem by fishing them out, eating them fresh on the q and bringing back the local habitat less the fish, all this work and effort for the protection and restoration of the auspicious "Mother load mircon flood gold nat" which lays its eggs in the rare enough local worm holes, which i help restore after every season as park of my assessment work. The worm restoration work will be helpful leverage in showing how much I care about the condition of my claim before and after the mining process.

Creating worm habitat will get you dredging faster than the local groups can work with your hard earned money you could be spending on vitimin suppliments for the worms. Worms and miners get along, we both clean up the water system and aerate the top soil.

Having a permit and getting to dredge where there never were fish is the best thing for both the people of California and the worms symbiotic relationship with the mircon nat!

I even put in some crawdad traps, the now prevalent exotic predator of the worms, overnight but nothing was there so Im preemptive protecting the water from non native things- restoring and quickening my 20 acres.

Also I plant giant sequoias all over the place, furthering the saga of Tuolumne Todd and his claim.

Plus here is the lead I collected from all the shot and riveted iron, rusty particles that I have cleaned from the river, yes its still a mystery why we are so good at that and we should get some recognition because thats the easiest thing to document in a report, the epic amounts of lead and merc cleaned forever from the water supply, its better to drink now officer/judge/board member/certifier/neohippy/human. Test that!

Now that should be enough for a permit and dredge on my part of the stream, you guys are on your own! My money , my worms

 

[beekbuster]

california is one big disappointment

 

[DXBDave]

due to the way the code is written. the term "mechanical" does not apply outside of using a suction or vacuum device.

so "technically" you can still highbank. and you can run tractors. but you still have to file a proper POO and you will need a lumber claim in order to disturb the forest floor(soil) FS has no jurisdiction when it comes to the dirt/minerals.

and if it's high and dry and 300ft from the water ways. DWR F&G cant say nothing.

I appreciate the clarification sir. I thought I had read about a prospector getting fined for using a sluice in a stream. My assumption was he was feeding it with either a shovel or buckets. How can that run afoul of vacuum or suction regs? And would it be legal under current regs to dig material 300 ft from the stream and drag it down to the river to run? Say use a motorized classifier up on a bench and then run it through a BGT or similar. I appreciate any direction you can give, it is all so friggin confusing and frustrating.

Dave

 

[spaghettigold]

You are gunna think I am makin this stuff up but,,,, yes the regs protected birds, dredgers were told where they could camp and,,,, wait for it,,,, walk on the grass to access the river. Crazy huh?

More than enough studies have been done by independent parties like at least 3 by Fish and Game, USGS, Universities ect. All resulted in "less than significant" impacts. We are not fighting science,,,, we are fighting an ideology.

Didn,t meant we have to fight science,but maybe the scientist or who ever sells those results to the policy makers as a damage to the enviroment.

Because if you are fighting ideologist like you pointed out,even positiv results become worthless.

As far the highly risk for nature of walking on grass...

Remember the big overall plan of the u.n. ideologies is to create big areas with no human activity at all,while having a well controlled industrie possibly concentrated geografically for easyer management and avoid sprawl.
If you look at the Ideologic basics of the agenda you can predict all the insane regs for the future,no prob. Mining does not go well with those plans because you have to go where minerals are in the ground.If you add that as a dredger you are no strategically /economic heavyweight in a mineral supply strategy of a country..you can only hope that the preemption case is not closed cause if your mining rights don,t apply enymore in the manner they where meant,the states get the authority to regulate it per the agencies and the agencies all over the western world operate after almost the same u.n. agenda bluprint ,regs etc.etc..Actually all those agencies itself are a u.n. construct and also the financing of these agencies comes (fully intended) via taxpayer and...via regulation and paperwork.Also the agenda gave the extremists the tools via the different "acts " to sue those agencies if they are not operating after theyre gusto.
So the more regs and paperwork the more jobs they can create.
Over in new zealand the dredgers are freaking out too because of more regs and prohibition on a daily and now..because we create more regs you have to pay more for the application.Its a cross-subsidization of jobs if you will.http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img924/8475/z8pZLe.jpg.

Keep the fingers crossed for you guys

 

[Goldwasher]

I appreciate the clarification sir. I thought I had read about a prospector getting fined for using a sluice in a stream. My assumption was he was feeding it with either a shovel or buckets. How can that run afoul of vacuum or suction regs? And would it be legal under current regs to dig material 300 ft from the stream and drag it down to the river to run? Say use a motorized classifier up on a bench and then run it through a BGT or similar. I appreciate any direction you can give, it is all so friggin confusing and frustrating.

Dave

there is no law that says you can't pump water, use shovels or buckets. there are no regulations on sluicing.

 

[Hoser John]

Bill Text - SB-637 Suction dredge mining: permits. bbbbbbbbsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[jere64ca]

"Fortunately, the question of federal preemption is presently before the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, concerning the somewhat broader Oregon ban on motorized mining." Buchal

Folks if our best opportunity resides with the Ninth Circuit our goose is cooked! The ninth is more ideology driven then any other court in the U.S.. How in the world did we allow ourselves to be placed in a position to be judged by fanatical ideologues? By the way, studies are like statistics...they can be manipulated and presented in a manner that fits the author's purpose. Bottom line, small equipment dredging does NOT harm the environment in any significant manner -that book has already been published.

Correct, the Ninth Circuit has a miserable track record but they have made a few, very few, proper rulings. In my opinion in the Reinhart case we were effectually asking the state to overrule ITSELF and admit that they did not have the authority regulate what they were ALREADY regulating. Also the Reinhart case was asking the state to interpret a Federal law,,,, of course the state ruled in its own favor,,, otherwise the state would have to admit that it is NOT all powerful. No big surprise in the loss. I give the case in the Ninth Circuit a little more hope because it Federal authority vs. State authority. Will the Feds admit they are not all powerful

 

[RookmanGold]

Sorry to hear all about all this. Although Im in Europe I really feel for all who will be impacted... the world is a crazy place.

 

[bcfromfl]

I appreciate the clarification sir. I thought I had read about a prospector getting fined for using a sluice in a stream. My assumption was he was feeding it with either a shovel or buckets. How can that run afoul of vacuum or suction regs? And would it be legal under current regs to dig material 300 ft from the stream and drag it down to the river to run? Say use a motorized classifier up on a bench and then run it through a BGT or similar. I appreciate any direction you can give, it is all so friggin confusing and frustrating.

Dave

I suspect that what you read about a miner getting fined for bringing material to a stream sluice happened more than a year ago. That was because, at the time, law enforcement was watching the amount of dry bank material being brought to waterways and causing sediment/silting issues. If a prospector was conservative in this regard, classifying material to limit the overall amount, and keeping the number of buckets minimal...this was OK. If he went overboard with bucket after bucket, this guaranteed trouble.

There is/was no limit on streambed material being fed through a sluice.

As I understand it, this subjective assessment on dry bank material has been settled, and is no longer on the radar. (Be sure to check local regs.) My advice? Continue to classify and watch the total volume, so as not to draw too much attention to what you're doing. If law enforcement sees someone carelessly silting up a waterway, even though they probably won't issue a fine like they may have before, they'll figure out another way to make their point.

Another method: inconvenient, but a recirculating system would probably not run afoul of current regs. Use several connected large tubs to help settle suspended solids, and a removable bucket to carry tailings back to your hole. I haven't confirmed this -- just an educated guess.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Yeah the situation looks bleak in California and it has been getting worse over the years. I left that state over ten years ago because while I might be a crazy Irishman, even I could see where they were heading.

The saddest part about all this is that miners in California have had plenty of time as well as a way of heading this all off well before it got so out of hand. Mining districts and the powers that they are granted by law.v

 

[chlsbrns]

there is no law that says you can't pump water, use shovels or buckets. there are no regulations on sluicing.

You are not allowed to use pumps in CA.

Has anyone noticed the difference between the courts definition of suction dredging and the States definition?

Casual and recreational use... No one realizes how absurd the States definitions are? You need to locate a profitable deposit to file a MINING CLAIM... Casual and recreational... Anyone get it yet? Not to mention non-motorized sluicing which is allowed does the same thing that is prohibited, it returns disturbed sediments back to the waterway but sluicing is allowed.

I can go on and on after reading the decision in the op but I don't have time!

You all need a better lawyer.

 

[DizzyDigger]

I can go on and on after reading the decision in the op but I don't have time!

You all need a better lawyer.

After reading hundreds of your posts I've determined you are the most knowledgeable
miner in the United States.

Considering your dearth of knowledge, are you available to legally represent the miners in Calif. ?

 

[ClaimStake]

I appreciate the clarification sir. I thought I had read about a prospector getting fined for using a sluice in a stream. My assumption was he was feeding it with either a shovel or buckets. How can that run afoul of vacuum or suction regs? And would it be legal under current regs to dig material 300 ft from the stream and drag it down to the river to run? Say use a motorized classifier up on a bench and then run it through a BGT or similar. I appreciate any direction you can give, it is all so friggin confusing and frustrating.

Dave

we're not allowed to bring materials into a water way. nothing above the high water line regardless of distance. this is what stopped hydraulic mining.

all materials must come from within the high water flood mark.

water rights simplified;
if you return the water in the "same state" you took it from, and at the "same place" in the water way. you may do what you want with it.
and there are no laws governing how you may take that water. by hand, bucket, pump. doesn't matter.

so if you can take some water out, settle it in a settling pond and return it. you may run some mechanized equipment including tractors and trommels.

however "significant disturbance" is what defines you as being "commercial" or "noncommercial".

noncommercial implies casual or recreational use.

"significant disturbance" = 1000 tons of sample material or more. <-Requires a POO(Plan Of Operations) filed with your claim. this may be denied by the BLM.

999 tons of material or less is "NOT" significant disturbance. and does not need a POO. no one can say anything.

I'm not sure how to go about getting a lumber claim/permit.

if the BLM or FS gives you any trouble then just flash some cash in their direction, they won't mind they're all corrupt, it's what the big boys do. cost 'bout as much as buying a tractor, per head. and just make up some enviro-science BS that sounds good enough to sell to the public.

if you pay off the governor you could probably get the taxpayers to pay for your whole operation.

I won't say nothin' just tell me where you're hiring.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Claimstake, please keep political comments out of posts..




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DT2016

 

[goldenIrishman]

Well there's already been one case that was won by the little guy Claimstake that has been discussed or at least mentioned here several times. USFS Vs Tierney. In this case the judge determined that a hands and pans operation (Anything not using a tractor or motorized tool to move dirt) CAN NOT cause a significant surface disturbance. Therefore, no NOI or POO is required by law. Now... Some Forest Circus yahoo may tell you otherwise because he or she doesn't know of this ruling, but they would be 100% dead wrong. Picks, shovels, hoes, rakes, wheel barrows and all other implements of manually powered digging are allowed without a NOI or POO.

The LAST thing any small scale miner should ever do is file a NOI or POO. Should it be approved by the local powers that be, the miner is now bound by contract with the government. (Last contract I did with them had me wearing green and jumping out of planes for the next several years) So unless you've found the mother lode of all placer deposits and are really REALLY sure you're ready to run with the big dogs, stick to hands and pans, politely tell the forest circus gold bricks what they can do with their NOI and POO, and dig to your hearts content. Run a clean camp and for the most part they'll leave you alone once they figure out that you know the rules better then they do. A well educated and informed miner can be their worst nightmare and I for one love to give them bad dreams... Muhahahahahahaha!!!!!!

 

[chlsbrns]

After reading hundreds of your posts I've determined you are the most knowledgeable
miner in the United States.

Considering your dearth of knowledge, are you available to legally represent the miners in Calif. ?

I doubt that they can afford me.

 

[ClaimStake]

Claimstake, please keep political comments out of posts..




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DT2016

yeah that was a little too much sorry. lol

 

[Tonto]

Envirowackos are in control of our public lands, our legislatures, and our courts. We are simply powerless, and in a few years, there will be no more treasure hunting of any kind, except the clandestine kind. Enjoy it while you can, fellers!