Tuolumne county mining district meeting in January Sonora Ca

[Tuolumne]

Anyone get on of these in the mail today?

Anyone know this guy?

Your thoughts tnet?

Any Sunday would have been better for me

I thought you couldn't have vote at first meeting?

 

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[Clay Diggins]

Hmmm lessees, operators and patented claims have nothing to do with mining districts.

From their website:

The Mariposa Mining District is the largest district in California covering over one-quarter of the state. Its boundaries encompass 12 counties from Kern below Bakersfield in the South, Mariposa to the north, the California/Nevada border on the east and the California coastal range to the west. It was originally formed in 1851 and has both placer and lode mining.

These jokers actually believe there was a 12 county mining district -ever - anywhere? Did they send out a certified notice to all 12,000+ claim owners in that "district" about the regularly scheduled meetings and get more than 50% of those claimants to vote to be subject the many terms before forming this district? Do they even have a clue about the Brown Act, Sunshine in government or LAFCO?

Looks like Kevin Bell and Robert Guardiola had a little falling out with their MMAC sponsors.

CENTRAL CALIFORNIA MMAC Notice:
Robert Guardiola has been terminated from MMAC in all and any representations. He is not allowed to use any MMAC materials as Roberts ideas are inconsistent with laws rules and regulations for MMAC and Mining District laws. Roberts mining districts are not recognized by MMAC or federally recognized in the modern day sense. (Grizzly Flat, Mariposa (This is not represented correctly. Many MMAC organized districts already exist.) , Lower Calaveritas & Murphys.) If any miners from the following mining districts would like to be recognized correctly and federally please contact MMAC.

Kevin Bell has been terminated from MMAC in all and any representations. He is not allowed to use any MMAC materials as Kevins ideas are inconsistent with laws rules and regulations for MMAC and Mining Districts Laws. Kevins mining districts are not recognized by MMAC or federally recognized in the modern day sense. (Grizzly Flat, Mariposa, (This is not represented correctly. Many MMAC organized districts already exist.), Lower Calaveritas & Murphys.) If any miners from the following mining districts would like to be recognized correctly and federally please contact MMAC.

Sooooo... PLP + MMAC is no more. PLP is on the rocks with two boards and frozen bank accounts. MMAC became a for profit corporation. And now Kevin and Robert are picking up the pieces?

Anyone smell something burning? Or is that smell...

Mining Districts could be a very good thing. What you are seeing here is not a mining district. I've spent years studying mining district history, law and court cases. These attempts to control miners have nothing in common with the original use and intent of mining districts. These "mining districts" are not reformed reactivated or anything else relating to historical mining districts. In some States it's illegal to try to resurrect a former mining district. I'm pretty sure none of the above mentioned groups understand that.

So far these "mining districts" are batting zero. It's time to get educated and serious if you want to change your world. Relying on others to make you a district is wasted time in my opinion. Miners form their own districts without outside "help". They form those districts to fit the unique character of a single mineralized area that they mine with unique methods and unique problems. No effective mining district could ever cover 12 counties.

Support who you wish. Call your selves a "mining district" or My Little Pony for all I care but please consider that we are a relatively small group trying to retain the rights we already have. Every effort counts, some efforts count for the good, some efforts count for the bad and some effort is wasted time and energy. This attitude that "it's better than nothing" is eventually going to sink small mining in California. Make sure your efforts count for the good of all miners.

Heavy Pans

 

[Goldwasher]

This is going on with several people who were part of MMAC. I like how they (MMAC) think they are creating another authority over the districts, no "real" districts want anything to do with them, And all these guys get all butthurt when someone brings up reality so they split and split and split.

And MMAC doesn't want your district to be a valid district if your not recognized by MMAC FOR A FEE!!!..they skipped past asking for support and donations.

Kevin Bell is doing this for Marketing to get more of his useless sluice boxes in the field.

I know several people who like Robert. I also know several people who fully support MMAC and I don't get it at all.

 

[QNCrazy]

All I have to say is this explains a lot. After my post about the miners meetings a couple of months ago, I was schooled by members of this forum and withdrew from that campaign. Sometimes it better to sit back and see what happens. I knew there was some misinformation being put out at those meetings. After seeing this thread, I had to see it for myself so I went to MMAC's sight and it's all there in black and white.

Todd, you said you got that in the mail, when? I'm surprised I didn't recieve this information first hand as I was asked to assist in researching the old district by-laws for them. Oh well, maybe its better that I wasn't.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I don't know either Kevin or Robert. I don't see this as about personalities. They may be perfectly nice gentlemen. Perfectly nice gentlemen can be very wrong sometimes.

I've seen Kevin's sluices but never used one. I can't imagine them working well but my first look at a bazooka left me shaking my head.

MMAC has no authority but people still support it. That's their privilege. Everything will become apparent in time. I just hate to see the time and energy wasted on these silly schemes. If people are serious about forming a mining district they will do it without any prompting from non claim owners from outside their mining area. When outsiders try to form mining districts for other miners they are proving they don't have a clue what a mining district is all about.

Miners have a right to govern themselves

according to the LOCAL CUSTOMS or rules of MINERS. (1872 Mining Act)

LOCAL as in specific to the deposit - everyone knows one another and are engaged in mining of the same type. If you aren't local to the deposit what the locals do is nunya bizzness.

CUSTOMS are developed through experience with a certain deposit type. This is a very powerful right. If miners have developed and recorded the best, safest and most effective way to mine their particular deposit they are experts in mining that deposit. Set written local district standards for proper mining and your local expertise becomes the best evidence of proper mining methods in your district.

Your district gets to set mining standards - not some land management agency. This single most powerful right is thrown away when districts get larger than a particular deposit. No way placer gold miners can set standards for limestone or clay miners or vice versa. Different customs exist for different types of mining and for different deposits. The bentonite, copper and borax miners in these huge "districts" can't possibly be subject to the same customs as placer gold miners.

MINERS are the actual claim owners. Not somebody who would like to have a 12 county area under their control, not private patented property owners, not someone who leased a claim and not an operator - the actual claim owners get to form and define what a district is and how it operates. Miners being represented along with miners they actually know and mine next to. Miners with actual mining claims. Miners governing themselves - not some corporation in another state and not some government agent.

Heavy Pans

 

[Tuolumne]

All I have to say is this explains a lot. After my post about the miners meetings a couple of months ago, I was schooled by members of this forum and withdrew from that campaign. Sometimes it better to sit back and see what happens. I knew there was some misinformation being put out at those meetings. After seeing this thread, I had to see it for myself so I went to MMAC's sight and it's all there in black and white.

Todd, you said you got that in the mail, when? I'm surprised I didn't recieve this information first hand as I was asked to assist in researching the old district by-laws for them. Oh well, maybe its better that I wasn't.

I got this yesterday on Thursday!

The mining districts in my area historically were small, 5-10 families in a valley.
What do the clubs and Amra type feel about this? There must be other tnet guys that got this?

Id rather go to the Sacramento water meeting so far....

 

[Goldwasher]

I never got one. Kevin is from Stockton he has tried to insert himself in to the small scale community in a few different way's. He is/ was a delta gold digger. He is also trying to push his product via GPAA. Gpaa isn't good ad pushing anything and once you put the sluice to work all hope fades.

I still shake my head when I look at a bazooka. I flat out say no when it comes to the AMP sluice. Saying a 24 inch sluice of any type is for three people to run. Doesn't give much confidence in his awareness factor. Pushing MMAC even less so. MMAC not wanting to have anything to do with him is points for Kevin.

I always get the way people are trying to organize prospectors.. I never get why the tactic is to create new groups and ask for money. We already have the GPAA the largest prospecting org. in the world. You will be hard pressed to see them actually doing anything. Other than lending their name to some cases. If they actually handled their press and outreach effectively it would be amazing.

I was hoping that once the Massey business model was gone and they left with their millions, someone who actually wanted to help prospectors would be taking over.
Gpaa has a new product line and guess what they are pushing the AMP sluice...

The thing to remember is that a district really only needs money to buy stationary. There is no gov. fee or county. five claim owners in a drainage can form, make bylaws vote and continue to vote and hold meetings and voila...As active of a mining district as can be. No reforming or hunting down required.

You just have to be a claim owner, have notified all owners in the district and made certain postings. Keeping the district as small as possible is the best bet. Then get those districts to meet,and help eachother. Districts gain no "power" by being larger or having more members.

It is easier unfortunately to get two guys from two sides of the state to pay and "Join" then it is to get two guys in the same canyon to form....Because chances are those two guys are never in the canyon at the same time but, that's another subject.


If you don't own a claim in the district you are just a miner in a district. You are effected by the board comprised of claim owners and how the board votes.
You can hold influence...I wouldn't change anything I was pushing in a district based on anything anyone outside of it, had to say especially if they couldn't take the time to show up and actually dig.

 

[M.E.G.]

RAND MINING DISTRICT COOPERATION

 

[Tuolumne]

as far as small prospectors getting into mining districts, gold will have to be at $3000 a ounce before Im bringing in a back hoe or filing a NOI or POO and put down money for the reclamation bond and that whole process.

Once gold pops, and when that happens, I think we will see more small miners getting their neighbors, with their unique geomorphology and logistics to their own area, together again into mining districts.

 

[Goldwasher]

as far as small prospectors getting into mining districts, gold will have to be at $3000 a ounce before Im bringing in a back hoe or filing a NOI or POO and put down money for the reclamation bond and that whole process.

Once gold pops, and when that happens, I think we will see more small miners getting their neighbors, with their unique geomorphology and logistics to their own area, together again into mining districts.

Why not have a district in anticipation of ?

 

[getmesomegold]

I'm glad people are getting the post cards ! Kevin and I are moving forward to unite the mining communities and give all miners a voice to be heard and recognized ! Kevin and I continue to work with and rely on 100s of other people both miners and professionals to help move miners in a positive direction which will ultimately put the miners in a position to control and have a say in their future! This is not about peddling products or personalities ! This is about unification, constituency and protecting the laws that are on the books to protect us all ‼
If you are a claim owner, you should have received a postcard. We sent post cards to the address listed on filings with BLM. The meeting is a public meeting opened to all . You must be a claim holder to vote, patented claim owners are included. If you did not receive a post card , you are welcome to come to attend!
The purpose of this meeting is to educate, and if enough claim holders are present, they can vote to restaff the district and proceed from there!
For those of you who doubt the validity of Mining Districts , I urge you to read the Rienhart decision and the current mining laws as well as the bylaws of the district itself!

 

[MadMarshall]

I'm glad people are getting the post cards ! Kevin and I are moving forward to unite the mining communities and give all miners a voice to be heard and recognized ! Kevin and I continue to work with and rely on 100s of other people both miners and professionals to help move miners in a positive direction which will ultimately put the miners in a position to control and have a say in their future! This is not about peddling products or personalities ! This is about unification, constituency and protecting the laws that are on the books to protect us all ‼
If you are a claim owner, you should have received a postcard. We sent post cards to the address listed on filings with BLM. The meeting is a public meeting opened to all . You must be a claim holder to vote, patented claim owners are included. If you did not receive a post card , you are welcome to come to attend!
The purpose of this meeting is to educate, and if enough claim holders are present, they can vote to restaff the district and proceed from there!
For those of you who doubt the validity of Mining Districts , I urge you to read the Rienhart decision and the current mining laws as well as the bylaws of the district itself!

Robert. It's not that we doubt the validity of mining districts! It's that I doubt the intentions and the compentance of individual such as yourself and the individuals clubs orgs ECT ECt you associate with. Truth is I don't think you will or can ever understand the intention or the role of a mining district.
Which group you singing for now Robert ? AMRA?

 

[winners58]

Not patented claim, its patented mine, a claim refers to your asserted right of possession under the General Mining Law, patent land is private property.
there is a reference on maintaining access to patent lands that was added to the mining laws when Alaska was added that's it.
My concerns with MMAC is their organizational structure, there should be a board, with no checks & balances, no accountability to the people they purport to serve.
then they want money each year for each claim or you are not under their protection, they also want a pledge of allegiance to basically, Joe & Clark...

A Mining District is a local governing body for and by miners, its vested jurisdiction deriving its authority from the will of the United States Congress
who recognized the long standing tradition of self government among miners and granted them with the right to create and enforce local
rules and regulations pertaining to the location and development of their unique mineral properties.
A Mining District is open to all miners and prospectors of good standing who have mineral interests inside the lines of their district,
who pledge to abide by the local customs, rules and regulations of their mining district for the unified protection of their property and welfare.(Kerby)

A mining district is good for having a voice and coordination with BLM & FS, since the early 1900's with the "Enabling Acts" all local governments
were consolidated to counties, with counties as the lowest that the feds would deal with, under them are service districts like power,
water, library, sanitation districts and such. when a mining district becomes active again it would behoove them to announce yourselves
and work with your county board of commissioners. A meeting of the miners, elect a board, accept the rules, regulations and customs
announce and ask to create a record with/at the county commissioners meeting is all that's needed to be an un-incorporated entity

Robert's Rules of Order

 

[Tuolumne]

Why not have a district in anticipation of ?

I wish my claim neighbors were cooler, ones from Los Angeles and comes up once a year, doesn't keep his corners marked and not into anything pro active. The others I've never seen.

If gold goes to 3k per ozt then I think it would open up alot of discussionGg
Tuolumne is big county, lots of mining going on for different material.

Right now I need to talk to slate miner because i can make more on my other minerals and rocks than mining for gold!

First impression from mailing I got was not good-Thursday meeting sucks, you should have made it a Sunday and more inclusive! How are the wannbe miner/once a year claim owners from 500 miles away going to go to your meeting on a Thursday.
I'm sure you saw the list, most of the people don't live in tuolumne county that have claims in tuolumne....

 

[Goldwasher]

You don't have to put in corners unless your lode or in an un-surveyed area.

 

[Goldwasher]

Kevin I got your pm. I discuss issues in public. You don't take part in daily conversation. I'm not responding in private. Speak your piece.

What do you know about mining districts? You may chime in at anytime. Your comments may be useful to the group. I won't be calling you.

 

[Goldwasher]

Not patented claim, its patented mine, a claim refers to your asserted right of possession under the General Mining Law, patent land is private property.
there is a reference on maintaining access to patent lands that was added to the mining laws when Alaska was added that's it.
My concerns with MMAC is their organizational structure, there should be a board, with no checks & balances, no accountability to the people they purport to serve.
then they want money each year for each claim or you are not under their protection, they also want a pledge of allegiance to basically, Joe & Clark...

A Mining District is a local governing body for and by miners, its vested jurisdiction deriving its authority from the will of the United States Congress
who recognized the long standing tradition of self government among miners and granted them with the right to create and enforce local
rules and regulations pertaining to the location and development of their unique mineral properties.
A Mining District is open to all miners and prospectors of good standing who have mineral interests inside the lines of their district,
who pledge to abide by the local customs, rules and regulations of their mining district for the unified protection of their property and welfare.(Kerby)

A mining district is good for having a voice and coordination with BLM & FS, since the early 1900's with the "Enabling Acts" all local governments
were consolidated to counties, with counties as the lowest that the feds would deal with, under them are service districts like power,
water, library, sanitation districts and such. when a mining district becomes active again it would behoove them to announce yourselves
and work with your county board of commissioners. A meeting of the miners, elect a board, accept the rules, regulations and customs
announce and ask to create a record with/at the county commissioners meeting is all that's needed to be an un-incorporated entity

Robert's Rules of Order

Right and anyone outside of my county can just pound sand if they think they can create any authority over me.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Not patented claim, its patented mine, a claim refers to your asserted right of possession under the General Mining Law, patent land is private property.

Valid mining claims don't have to be mined to qualify for a patent. Many mining claims have been patented without ever being mined. There is no requirement in the mining laws that a claim be mined to be patented. There is no requirement under the mining law that a claim ever be mined at all. Once you perfect your discovery mining is a choice, not a requirement.

As Winners wrote patent land is private property - not a mining claim. It wouldn't matter what you called it - private patented property is not a subject of the Mining Acts and only mining claim owners can participate in a mining district. A patented property is no longer a mining claim nor does it have any rights under federal mining law. In particular patents have NO right to participate in a mining district.

I can only imagine it was Joe Martori who started this BS about "patented claims" being eligible to belong to a mining district. Joe Martori started MMAC and still owns it. Joe Martori has never owned a mining claim but would like to believe he can make a mining district based on nothing but the fact that he bought a private property that used to be mined. I can't understand why anyone would want a private landowner with no mining claim experience to be in charge of all mining claims in the country. As I wrote before - the blind leading the blind.

Educate yourself about how mining districts can be effective and you will see how little Joe, Clark, Kevin, Robert and Kerby know about forming or participating in a mining district.

A good place to start would be with the mining districts that created the model for the mining law:
Early Records of Gilpin County, Colorado; 1859-1861 - Mining Districts

You will not see non claim owners, prospectors or private property owners included in mining district business. Mining districts are formed to represent the interests of local claim owners only. Try to find "coordination" or county representation in these district bylaws - there is none because mining districts are about miners governing themselves, not the County, State or Federal governments. You can establish miners courts, mining records and mining laws for the claim owners in your district but just as the Mining Act says you can not override local, State or Federal laws.

That the locators of all mining locations heretofore made, or which shall hereafter be made, on any mineral veln, lode, or ledge, situated on the public domain, their heirs and assigns, where no adverse claim exists at the passage of this act, so long as they comply with the laws of the United States, and with State, territorial, and local regulations not in conflict with said laws of the United States governing their possessory title, shall have the exclusive right of possession and enjoyment of all the surface included within the lines of their locations

That the miners of each mining district may make rules and regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States, or with the laws of the State or Territory in which the district is situated, governing the location, manner of recording, amount of work necessary to hold possession of a mining-claim

Read up on just what a mining district is and can be and you will see that they are very powerful organizations for claim owners within the district. They are not represented on a Federal State or County level in matters of law but they do have the ability within the district of extending and refining those Federal State or County laws to meet the needs of local claim owners. They never cover more area than is required to meet the needs of one type of mining in one area of mineral deposit.

Asking for Federal, State or County level coordination of mining claim business is contrary to the law and intent of mining districts. Miners can govern themselves and that is a unique and very powerful and unique right but only within the bounds of the law that granted that right.

That unique and very powerful right to form mining districts can be repealed and it would be a sad thing to see these efforts by non claim holders to control actual claim owners blow up so badly as to result in that right being taken away. Seeing these non claim owners trying to influence Washington politicians in claim owners names gives me the creeps. They pretend to represent mining claim owners but they pervert the very same laws that allow us to rule ourselves. This could easily result in fewer rights for miners. Please consider carefully who you support.

Heavy Pans

 

[AMP_kbell]

Goldwasher - My PM request was to reiterate what Robert had already said. This is not about selling sluice boxes. It is about unifying Miners. I believe that Mining Districts are one of the most powerful tools available and we as claim holders should be utilizing it.

We are merely setting the wheels in motion for claim holders in their district to get together as a group. What happens at the meeting, what actions are taken and decisions made on how to proceed are solely up to them.

 

[getmesomegold]

So the question remains, with the knowledge you are presenting, will you participate in a mining district that you hold valid claims in? I hold and work claims in several districts. I would like to be able to extract the minerals in a efficient manner that is cost effective which is becoming increasingly difficult as we sit back and let non miners control our destiny! Last few meetings I've been to on a state level, everyone had degrees in recreation and not one had a degree in mining, geology or any of the sciences , these are the people telling us how to mine? If a district is not in use, the authority is passed on to the next authority willing to use it as we've seen here in California. They've made dredging illegal, and now they are making any suction device illegal including high bankers. In Mariposa County they have now issued a ruling making a C.U.P. Mandatory in addition to any other state or federal permit process if you want to move to a commercial mining status ! Now let's talk about the road closures during the winter months? So where will it end ? Who will stand up and fight the continuing attack on our ability to mine?
I hear a lot of chatter about how to do something and see very little help on getting it done . I'm not professing to have all the answers, But I'm willing to roll up my sleeves and work to get it done! Could we make some mistakes, sure! But we will make less if we get more participation‼
The whole purpose of this is that the miners take control of their districts and govern themselves! If they don't, then others will govern the miners!! That hasn't worked out so well!
So we can sit here and bad mouth each other, or we can meet and see if we can't get this district thing off the ground and make them work for us!
It's time to stop the bickering among ourselves and join forces to use every tool we have to keep mining a viable industry and profession !
The fact is that we need every miner available plus some to have the numbers it will take to make a difference and protect the laws that protect us ! I'd really just like to get back to mining , but the fact is, we will never just be able to mine again! We must stay active in the political arena and on top of the governance of our districts. Our adversaries have stayed united and have built quite a force against us and even their own constituents do not realize the rights they are giving up!
And they just continue to grow!
What are we the miners doing? Not Much, Except for losing ground that is! You have a few groups out there that are doing their best to educate and inform, and you have some that are just in it for profit !
I can tell you right now, that the only profit I'm looking for is the minerals I pull out of my claim which is limited these days because of rules and regulations and the politics of trying to prevent further loss of our abilities!
So call me what you will , I don't really care , but if you want me to continue to fight for your right to mine, or anyone really, then quit fighting us and help us bring justice back to the miner !
After all , it's the miners responsibility to protect his or hers ability to mine or lose it....
The choice is yours ..........