accidental tresspassing questions

[blackchipjim]

Ok here goes another pilgrim questions about searching for gold. You have a few maps and maybe a gps with other assorted stuff to survive the day of searching for your motherlode. You are hiking exploring and searching and trying to be mindful of your whereabouts and you stop and see an interesting spot to check out. You look around and no stakes or flags so you take a few whacks at the hillside and lo and behold you find a nugget. Is it ok to keep looking or are responsible to make sure your not trespassing, bear in mind it doesn't show any claims or ownership on your map. I'm talking about Arizona and it's trespass laws. Thanks for any and all input.

 

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[goldenIrishman]

Simply put.... They should be! I know that I check the areas I want to prospect BEFORE I head out to the field. It covers my six and I can't afford to get into a legal action by another claim owner. If you're just going out to hike and poke around it's not really needed, but if you want to prospect it's mandatory in my mind. Hunting, hiking etc doesn't require this kind of research but for prospecting it's a must do step.

Most of the claim owners in my neck of the woods (or desert as the case may be) are pretty understanding of the mistakes made by newbies/greenhorns. If they catch ya on their turf the first time they will usually explain the situation and either ask you to leave or if you're polite and willing to learn they'll allow you to hunt for the day with a warning not to do it again. Those caught a second time they're not so nice to.

As to your map of claims, the Footprints mapping system by our own Clay Diggins is a great way to START but claims come and go so even if you've gotten the latest update to your program you could still be in the wrong. It's a good idea to check the info from Footprints (or other mapping programs) against the county records before you head out. I used the Greaterville Footprints to help me find areas that were open when I was in that area and they were worth their weight in gold. Did I still check with the county even though I had the newest update? You bet your sweet bippy I did! I was able to find a pretty good area that was open but due to a change in relationship status and moving to the other corner of the state I ended up not filing a claim on it. I feel there's no sense in filing a claim on an area that I'd have to drive7-8 hours to get to when I have good ground much closer.

 

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[IMAUDIGGER]

I don't think California requires claim corners be set or maintained on placer claims.
The corners they refer to in surveyed areas are PLSS corners.

I for one am very annoyed when I see un-patented claim owners slapping up an overwhelming amount of glaring signs on public land, almost like it's private property.
The homemade ones with stupid statements like "hidden cameras in use", especially annoy me.

The federal yellow/black signs at obvious access points, parking turn outs, diggings, ect. should be ample notice - but not required.

 

[Bejay]

As an Arizona land owner and Arizona attorney I'll tell you this: all the land in AZ is owned, either privately, State, or federal. Criminal trespass in AZ under your circumstances is a class one misdemeanor. Now, understand that if you're caught and even arrested your chances of actually being prosecuted for said trespass is very low. Whether you pocket the gold and keep searching I think is up to you and your own moral code.

I believe you error in your facts. To say that all lands are owned is correct but to say Public Lands are owned by the Federal Gov is incorrect. Public lands are OWNED by the public. One must also understand that which is Public Domain, and applicable to the miner who lays claim to "locatable minerals" per the Federal Grant given them.

Bejay

 

[goldenmojo]

Thanks for the input on this question. I guess to put the question in a different light would help. I drive to point x on my map it is a dry stream bed. I look on the claims map that I printed from a site that listed claims up yonder. I walk past the known and listed claims and maybe wander far away from the claims and look at the rock formations and take a metal detector to scout it out. Does everybody really go through all the research just to walk around the desert?

Wander and far away are terms that can get people lost and in trouble. Figure out where you are on the earth and if the place that you are standing at has mineral rights owned by someone other than you, don't steal.

 

[QNCrazy]

In response to your original post, show me the nugget.

 

[Bejay]

This seems redundant. If you are intending to locate and or extract locatable minerals or other claimable minerals from another persons/corp Claim; you are in violation. But the simple solution today is the "Land Matters" web site. It is easy. If something is seen in the area you want to metal detect, then you need to do further research and hit the "info" button in the logistical column and get the claim info. Simple. The answer is YES.........in minerally claimed country know where you are!

Bejay

 

[kcm]

Thanks for the input on this question. I guess to put the question in a different light would help. I drive to point x on my map it is a dry stream bed. I look on the claims map that I printed from a site that listed claims up yonder. I walk past the known and listed claims and maybe wander far away from the claims and look at the rock formations and take a metal detector to scout it out. Does everybody really go through all the research just to walk around the desert?

Goldwasher answered this, but let me put THIS answer into a different light:
As Tnet is primarily a MDing site, the majority of people and their discussions have to do with private property as well as public land that has been restricted to MDing and sometimes any other public use. Like, why call it "Public Land" then!!??!! But back to what I want to say here, if a MDer goes out and is detecting and digging on land they're not supposed to be on, they get in trouble, as well as making thing harder for the rest of MDers by the ever increasing amount of restrictions that are imposed.

Now let's look at it from a private landowner's point of view:
Someone owns some land and, even if they don't own the mineral rights to that land, they still own anything that is buried right in the surface that is not natural minerals. Thos could include coins, jewelry, tokens, pull tabs, aluminum cans, or even a cache of buried treasure! Some people don't care if others go on their land to hike, detect, just taking a shortcut, whatever - but lots of people DO care. What's the point of owning land if you have no say as to who gains access or who can do what?

Now let's look at it from a claims side:
Suppose you have a legal minerals claim on a piece of ground. Maybe you've taken the time and effort to properly mark your claim; maybe not. In either case, as claim owner, you OWN the minerals that are in that ground. So to go on someone else's land OR claim and MD or prospect is just outright theft. You can twist and turn it around and sugar-coat it till it resembles fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies, but it still doesn't change the fact that you're trespassing on someone else's land/claim and/or stealing from them.

If you're out in the wilderness, the land you're on belongs to SOMEONE, even if it's the Federal Government. And as such, the rightful owner of that land should have say in who has access to said land and to what activities happen on the land. Can you trespass or MD or prospect without getting in trouble? Oftentimes yes. Still don't make it right. If you plan on going out somewhere and MDing or prospecting or even hiking, it's YOUR responsibility to know beforehand that you're in the clear to be there and doing whatever it is you're doing. It's "Personal Responsibility".

Shirking your responsibility can make things harder on everyone else.

 

[dump_digger]

It is in Arizona. In Arizona there is no separate statute for mineral trespass, that item is contained in the criminal trespass in the first degree statute A.R.S 13-1404 which states in part: A) a person commits criminal trespass by knowingly:
4. Entering unlawfully on real property that is subject to a valid mineral claim or lease with the intent to hold, work, take or explore for minerals on the claim or lease.
This is a class one misdemeanor. I am in nor way advocating that anyone trespass on any property with the intent to take anything off of it. (And only in subsection 4 is intent an actual element to the crime of trespass.)

 

[kcm]

It is in Arizona. In Arizona there is no separate statute for mineral trespass, that item is contained in the criminal trespass in the first degree statute A.R.S 13-1404 which states in part: A) a person commits criminal trespass by knowingly:
4. Entering unlawfully on real property that is subject to a valid mineral claim or lease with the intent to hold, work, take or explore for minerals on the claim or lease.
This is a class one misdemeanor. I am in nor way advocating that anyone trespass on any property with the intent to take anything off of it. (And only in subsection 4 is intent an actual element to the crime of trespass.)

According to your definition, I or anyone else could easily get around this by simply not knowing which areas are currently under claim and which aren't. Something smells fishy around here, and it ain't just the pan fried catfish my wife just got finished making!

 

[dump_digger]

That's not "my" definition, but the definition that the Arizona State legislature passed, and it had nothing to do with me. Although knowingly is an element of the offense, what would have to be proven by the State is 1)knowingly entering, with 2) the intent to take, or hold etc. If you don't knowingly enter and have not intent to take or hold, you have a valid defense. But I stand by my original claim that the chances of the State actually charging such a case to be unlikely. And I'm talking exclusively about Arizona here.

And in Arizona, there are worse things that can happen to you if your trespassing than getting arrested.

 

[okbasspro]

I stand corrected I miss read the code easy to do the way it's written. That being said I have claims in Yavapai county and the sheriff will arrest for mineral trespassing I have had it done. You can play hunt fish off-road or stand around smoking weed but the minute you pick up a rock you are in the wrong weather you saw my post signs or monument. It is each and every persons responsibility to know the status of the ground they are standing on. As said before do your due diligence there is lots of open ground don't encroach on someone's else's hard work.

 

[dump_digger]

I agree wholeheartedly. : )

 

[blackchipjim]

It does make walking around the desert with a metal detector a little harder for sure. Never really thought about someone owning land in the middle of nowhere with nothing but dirt and cacti or snakes and such on it. Laws are laws and meant to protect everyone though.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

It does make walking around the desert with a metal detector a little harder for sure. Never really thought about someone owning land in the middle of nowhere with nothing but dirt and cacti or snakes and such on it. Laws are laws and meant to protect everyone though.

Just remember that there is the land to be owned....and there is the mineral estate to be owned. Sometimes both, other times only one.

Somebody mentioned that wilderness land is owned by the federal government...that is entirely incorrect. The Federal Government DOES NOT OWN PUBLIC LANDS. I know it is hard to overcome the brainwashing, but they hold the land in trust for you and I (if we are both legal citizens of the United States). Yup that's right - it doesn't belong to people just visiting our country.

Just perform due diligence in checking to see if it's private property and if the mineral rights are currently claimed (owned), then get out there and find that gold or buried stage coach loot.

 

[kcm]

Just remember that there is the land to be owned....and there is the mineral estate to be owned. Sometimes both, other times only one.

Somebody mentioned that wilderness land is owned by the federal government...that is entirely incorrect. The Federal Government DOES NOT OWN PUBLIC LANDS. I know it is hard to overcome the brainwashing, but they hold the land in trust for you and I (if we are both legal citizens of the United States). Yup that's right - it doesn't belong to people just visiting our country.

Just perform due diligence in checking to see if it's private property and if the mineral rights are currently claimed (owned), then get out there and find that gold or buried stage coach loot.

You're right, and I was in error to say that. However, my point was that the Fed Govt can still make restrictions on public land, as can State Govt. Ignorance of trespass laws or of the restrictions doesn't make an innocent person. And my point was that people who trespass and/or remove minerals from ground that is owned or claimed just makes life harder for those who DO follow the rules.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

You're right, and I was in error to say that. However, my point was that the Fed Govt can still make restrictions on public land, as can State Govt. Ignorance of trespass laws or of the restrictions doesn't make an innocent person. And my point was that people who trespass and/or remove minerals from ground that is owned or claimed just makes life harder for those who DO follow the rules.

Agreed.
Then there are the people that are willing to try their luck with the idea that they will just leave if asked to.
Or if they don't put up signs...it's their own fault....or the papers were old....
Someone local was mining on my dads claim and was asked to leave - the guy left and was back within an hour.
Little did he know how small of a town he lives in.

I have a claim on a creek that is normally dry. It's running enough now for a sluice box and I bet I run someone off this weekend if I can get up the road in my car (snow).

 

[russau]

ive heard the same thing from gpaa members ! They said its better to plead ignorance! I told them , NOT WITH ME!!! and I left them!

 

[Bejay]

Simply put.... They should be! I know that I check the areas I want to prospect BEFORE I head out to the field. It covers my six and I can't afford to get into a legal action by another claim owner. If you're just going out to hike and poke around it's not really needed, but if you want to prospect it's mandatory in my mind. Hunting, hiking etc doesn't require this kind of research but for prospecting it's a must do step.

Most of the claim owners in my neck of the woods (or desert as the case may be) are pretty understanding of the mistakes made by newbies/greenhorns. If they catch ya on their turf the first time they will usually explain the situation and either ask you to leave or if you're polite and willing to learn they'll allow you to hunt for the day with a warning not to do it again. Those caught a second time they're not so nice to.

As to your map of claims, the Footprints mapping system by our own Clay Diggins is a great way to START but claims come and go so even if you've gotten the latest update to your program you could still be in the wrong. It's a good idea to check the info from Footprints (or other mapping programs) against the county records before you head out. I used the Greaterville Footprints to help me find areas that were open when I was in that area and they were worth their weight in gold. Did I still check with the county even though I had the newest update? You bet your sweet bippy I did! I was able to find a pretty good area that was open but due to a change in relationship status and moving to the other corner of the state I ended up not filing a claim on it. I feel there's no sense in filing a claim on an area that I'd have to drive7-8 hours to get to when I have good ground much closer.

No doubt Footprints, (for mining areas where available) is a great tool And as you point out things can rapidly change in highly mineralized claimed areas. But I MUST mention again that THE LAND MATTERS WEB SITE offers a vast array of further information and the "Claims Advantage Report" is 2nd to nothing for updated information. All miners should check out the "Land Matters" web site. http://www.mylandmatters.org/Maps/


Bejay

 

[enamel7]

ive heard the same thing from gpaa members ! They said its better to plead ignorance! I told them , NOT WITH ME!!! and I left them!

They're not representing the GPAA if they say something like that! We always ask permission and leave the place better than we found it. Snakes like that give miners a bad name.

 

[goldenIrishman]

No doubt Footprints, (for mining areas where available) is a great tool And as you point out things can rapidly change in highly mineralized claimed areas. But I MUST mention again that THE LAND MATTERS WEB SITE offers a vast array of further information and the "Claims Advantage Report" is 2nd to nothing for updated information. All miners should check out the "Land Matters" web site. Land Matters Maps


Bejay

I agree 150% Bejay. Clay has made more good information available to the mining public through Footprints and LandMatters than has ever been available before. The FootPrints mapping programs are highly detailed for the areas that they cover but are limited in the amount of area that each one covers. Unfortunately, Clay hasn't put them out for more areas. I know he has a lot of irons in the fire and is a very busy guy. Considering the amount of work that goes into each of the programs what he's released so far is nothing short of amazing. Add the Land Matters site and all the information he's made available there for everyone to use and it's proof that there is a Patron Saint of mining and his name is Clay.