Miners angry about proposed regulations in Redding California

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Miners angry about proposed regulations

There was plenty of anger to go around Wednesday at Redding City Hall as some 80 miners turned out to lambaste a new state law to regulate suction dredge mining.

Under the law passed in 2015, the California Water Board is required to issue permits to miners who want to use the motorized dredges to get gold out of streams.

Water Board staff members held a workshop in Redding on Wednesday to take comment on whether the state should issue the permits, under what conditions and what miners would be required to do to offset potential environmental harm done by the mining.

“Should the state Water Board issue a permit? Emphatically no!” said James Foley, who lives along the Klamath River in Siskiyou County.

“Should certain protective practices be required? No. There is no harm from suction dredging,” he said. “What prohibitions should be applied? I say none.”

Out of the more than 30 commenters at the meeting, only one person in the audience spoke in favor of the permits. The rest disagreed with the premise that suction dredge mining harms the environment or fish.

Suction dredge mining has been prohibited in the state since 2009 because state officials are concerned about the environmental effects of the practice, which involves using a pump to suck materials from the bottom of a stream and run it through a sluice to separate gold.

Much of the concern centers around dredges kicking up mercury from stream beds. The mercury then gets into the food chain, causing a buildup of methylmercury in fish, according to the state.

Miners, however, say the dredges remove toxic metals. The dredges also can kick up sediment and disturb cultural sites, according to state officials.

Suction dredging also destroys salmon and trout salmon nests, said Forrest English, a program manager for Klamath Riverkeeper, an environmental advocacy group. The state Department of Fish and Wildlife is also required to change its suction dredge mining permits, but that is a separate process.

English said he would prefer the state not issue any permits. English did not attend the meeting in Redding, but went to the board workshop held Tuesday in Orleans in Humboldt County.

“The Water Board needs to either not permit this type of suction dredge mining or in the alternative put very strong protections in place where resources are not at risk,” English said before Wednesday’s meeting.

Miners said they were worried the permitting would be so complex, burdensome and expensive that they would not be able to afford to go through the process.

“But if you must (require permits), create a simple permitting process, one that is inexpensive and can be rapidly processed,” said Shannon Poe, president and CEO of the American Mining Rights Association.

Most at the meeting said mining was a way of life to them and they use mining to supplement their income. Creating a burdensome permit process would prevent that, they said.

Poe said miners are not environmentally irresponsible.

“It is a miner who has a real property mining claim. He pays taxes and is being denied the ability to feed his family due to ideology and not facts,” he said.
 

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bcfromfl

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Actually, I see this as a positive step forward. At least there's dialogue going on, which is better than the silence and delays from before.

I may not understand this correctly, but I think the Water Board permits lump suction dredging together with highbanking. If so, this is the time to spell out the differences. Suction dredging, as we know, doesn't harm riparian habitats or fish. But some highbanking (or invasive suction dredging) CAN cause harm -- if it is done in the banks of a stream/river. Yes, winter/spring flooding can cause just as much erosion, but I think that point may be difficult to make in the present political climate.

I can understand why folks don't want any rules at all. But some rules can actually HELP us!

If a dialogue such as this can outline what is allowable and what isn't, then we, as miners collectively, won't have to take the fall for those few bad apples out there who leave a mess and spoil it for everyone. If someone from the Water Board inspected the general area before and after (or if photos would be allowable), then proof would be presented that no harm took place. If someone did make a mess, then the enforcement actions and/or fines would be individual, and not killing privileges for all.

Things are different now. I would rather have work-arounds, and be able to use motorized equipment, then not accept compromise at all and forever lose the potential for profitable mining.

Just my two cents...
 

Goldwasher

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make a mess../??? :BangHead:
 

Bejay

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Does one acknowledge if the water board has the authority? Or does the mining community take on the State Of Calif Water Board? Of course this whole Calif reliance on the Water Board is a anti tactic that keeps dredgers out of the water. It is my experience that once the authority is accepted; the battle and regulations will always go on and magnify. Seems like the miners have gotten 90% down the battle trail.......and the Water Board Issue is a last resort effort. I will admit I have failed to read all the court/judge language to date, and I realize the miners combatants are weary and at wits ends? It sure would be nice to get this into Federal Court and away from the State....who does not really give a crud about miners extracting gold from the rivers/streams.
Just one mans' opinion!
Bejay
 

IMAUDIGGER

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Were there any areas that even allowed dredging during salmon/steelhead spawning?
 

Goldwasher

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Were there any areas that even allowed dredging during salmon/steelhead spawning?
nope not ind rivers or streams with those types of fish.
there were waterways open year round. There were some totally closed, Alpine, Inyo,Mono counties are a few per '94 regs/class system.

The 2012 regs however :BangHead: not work within 3 feet of the bank, do you know how many gold bearing creeks are 7 feet if your lucky?

the whole miners need to compromise has gotten so bad that members here are saying it too.....:dontknow:
 

goldenIrishman

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Let's not forget the old Chinese saying of being careful what you ask for! More regulation is NOT the answer to this argument. The State of California needs to look at the true science and ignore the position of the environmentalists who have been at the core of these arguments. Their so called studies have been debunked left and right. I say let the science determine the regulations as far as when it's allowed as well as where. I suppose it's too much to ask that the politicians actually do what's right instead of playing to those enviro groups that have made campaign contributions.
 

goldenIrishman

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Let's not forget the old Chinese saying of being careful what you ask for! More regulation is NOT the answer to this argument. The State of California needs to look at the true science and ignore the position of the environmentalists who have been at the core of these arguments. Their so called studies have been debunked left and right. I say let the science determine the regulations as far as when it's allowed as well as where. I suppose it's too much to ask that the politicians actually do what's right instead of playing to those enviro groups that have made campaign contributions.
 

IMAUDIGGER

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If I were to have to choose between regulatory agencies, I definitely would pick Fish and Wildlife over the water board.
The water board is completely out of touch with reality.
 

QNCrazy

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Actually, I see this as a positive step forward. At least there's dialogue going on, which is better than the silence and delays from before.

I may not understand this correctly, but I think the Water Board permits lump suction dredging together with highbanking. If so, this is the time to spell out the differences. Suction dredging, as we know, doesn't harm riparian habitats or fish. But some highbanking (or invasive suction dredging) CAN cause harm -- if it is done in the banks of a stream/river. Yes, winter/spring flooding can cause just as much erosion, but I think that point may be difficult to make in the present political climate.

I can understand why folks don't want any rules at all. But some rules can actually HELP us!

If a dialogue such as this can outline what is allowable and what isn't, then we, as miners collectively, won't have to take the fall for those few bad apples out there who leave a mess and spoil it for everyone. If someone from the Water Board inspected the general area before and after (or if photos would be allowable), then proof would be presented that no harm took place. If someone did make a mess, then the enforcement actions and/or fines would be individual, and not killing privileges for all.

Things are different now. I would rather have work-arounds, and be able to use motorized equipment, then not accept compromise at all and forever lose the potential for profitable mining.

Just my two cents...

Take a look at the Water Board announcement and information, ie suggested questions, then take a look at CCR Title 14, Section 228. What is being suggested is duplicative of what is already california law. The only thing the SWRCB should be concerned about is the discharge and they shouldn'e even worry about that. I agree with GW that the 2012 regs are crap anyway. Excellent point on the creek width, I won't even be able to use a dredge. Then there is the 1500 permit limit. BS!!!

GW - I'll respond to your PM in a little bit.
 

Goldwasher

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If I were to have to choose between regulatory agencies, I definitely would pick Fish and Wildlife over the water board.
The water board is completely out of touch with reality.
Actually Norman Russell seems pretty reasonable. Watch the videos the tone turned negative when Bob G. spoke and the enviros. Call Norman he'll talk to you. Dfw was sued when the were Cadfg. They did not initiate the dredge ban. They may have no backbone right now. But, they didn't start this.
 

IMAUDIGGER

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Actually Norman Russell seems pretty reasonable. Watch the videos the tone turned negative when Bob G. spoke and the enviros. Call Norman he'll talk to you. Dfw was sued when the were Cadfg. They did not initiate the dredge ban. They may have no backbone right now. But, they didn't start this.

Depends on what region you are in. Every region has a different person to deal with and different requirements.

I'm sure there are some good people working there, as with any organization.
 

bcfromfl

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I agree about frustration from several different agencies being involved, with duplicative regs or even contradictions. But there is a strategy in our favor to getting a single agency to agree to something that gets us back in the water. This either forces other agencies to align themselves with each other, or gives us leverage if one says this is OK, and another disagrees. I also agree that the Water Board is not the best agency to have involved in all this, but I don't think they really want to be involved, either. Maybe the strategy to getting them to unwind themselves from this is to try to force some sort of negotiation? Maybe other agencies wouldn't want to be involved in interpreting/enforcing Water Board regs in addition to their own, and the higher-ups would make an executive decision to elect a single agency in charge.

I agree that a $1500 permit that's only valid for a specific location is a deal-breaker.

I guess this boils down to whether or not we're willing to wait for an indefinite period of time -- which could be forever. I'd give odds that we're never going back to the way things were before, no matter how ridiculous the allegations are. The "no compromise" attitude gets us nowhere.

Maybe compromise gets us back to working, and perhaps in a few years, agencies see that there is no need for certain regs and they get amended or removed from permits. The important thing is to get us working with them, not fighting tooth and nail.

How many guys have thousands of dollars' worth of equipment gathering dust in their sheds and garages, while they're getting older and older and the remaining years they may be able to physically manage the equipment looming on the horizon? I know of several in this position, and a couple who have already gone beyond the ability to use anything beyond a vac-pac and a pan. I may be criticized for using the word, "compromise," but if it gets us to the goal of being able to use the equipment again, then that's a win in my book.

There's a philosophical quote that might be appropriate here: "Would you rather be right, or happy?"
 

QNCrazy

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It's really simple. To comply with SB 637, all the SWRCB has to do is say no need for a permit. Then we would fall under Title 14. However there is still the conflicting definitions.
 

Goldwasher

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Depends on what region you are in. Every region has a different person to deal with and different requirements.

I'm sure there are some good people working there, as with any organization.
Norman works for the SWRCB. Not a regional office. The permit program is via a State General Permit. He himself states that you do not need to or want to work with the regional offices. They are slower and expensive.
This was dropped in his lap. They did not initiate this against us. There will be no regional difference under the General Permit. Other than any regs based on regional EIR.
 

Goldwasher

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I agree about frustration from several different agencies being involved, with duplicative regs or even contradictions. But there is a strategy in our favor to getting a single agency to agree to something that gets us back in the water. This either forces other agencies to align themselves with each other, or gives us leverage if one says this is OK, and another disagrees. I also agree that the Water Board is not the best agency to have involved in all this, but I don't think they really want to be involved, either. Maybe the strategy to getting them to unwind themselves from this is to try to force some sort of negotiation? Maybe other agencies wouldn't want to be involved in interpreting/enforcing Water Board regs in addition to their own, and the higher-ups would make an executive decision to elect a single agency in charge.

I agree that a $1500 permit that's only valid for a specific location is a deal-breaker.

I guess this boils down to whether or not we're willing to wait for an indefinite period of time -- which could be forever. I'd give odds that we're never going back to the way things were before, no matter how ridiculous the allegations are. The "no compromise" attitude gets us nowhere.

Maybe compromise gets us back to working, and perhaps in a few years, agencies see that there is no need for certain regs and they get amended or removed from permits. The important thing is to get us working with them, not fighting tooth and nail.

How many guys have thousands of dollars' worth of equipment gathering dust in their sheds and garages, while they're getting older and older and the remaining years they may be able to physically manage the equipment looming on the horizon? I know of several in this position, and a couple who have already gone beyond the ability to use anything beyond a vac-pac and a pan. I may be criticized for using the word, "compromise," but if it gets us to the goal of being able to use the equipment again, then that's a win in my book.

There's a philosophical quote that might be appropriate here: "Would you rather be right, or happy?"


You never had to have or could get the $1500 dollar permit as a small operator. Just because DFW and ming groups asking for money tell you that's what you have to do doesn't mean it was actually happening or necessary.
 

Mad Machinist

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Actually, I see this as a positive step forward. At least there's dialogue going on, which is better than the silence and delays from before.

I may not understand this correctly, but I think the Water Board permits lump suction dredging together with highbanking. If so, this is the time to spell out the differences. Suction dredging, as we know, doesn't harm riparian habitats or fish. But some highbanking (or invasive suction dredging) CAN cause harm -- if it is done in the banks of a stream/river. Yes, winter/spring flooding can cause just as much erosion, but I think that point may be difficult to make in the present political climate.

I can understand why folks don't want any rules at all. But some rules can actually HELP us!

If a dialogue such as this can outline what is allowable and what isn't, then we, as miners collectively, won't have to take the fall for those few bad apples out there who leave a mess and spoil it for everyone. If someone from the Water Board inspected the general area before and after (or if photos would be allowable), then proof would be presented that no harm took place. If someone did make a mess, then the enforcement actions and/or fines would be individual, and not killing privileges for all.

Things are different now. I would rather have work-arounds, and be able to use motorized equipment, then not accept compromise at all and forever lose the potential for profitable mining.

Just my two cents...

Work around and compromises for what? The so called "damage" done by dredging is nonexistent. In fact dredging can be quite beneficial, especially when you get into things like streambed armoring and interspatial siltation. Those two things have an effect several orders of magnitude greater on aquatic habitat than dredging ever will.

The more complex the eco freaks try and make this issue, the more absolute crap that comes out. The only problem that I have found over the years is the fact that these eco freaks with their 2.0 GPA's think they know what they are talking about because they can use a computer model. If they actually spent time out in the real world their heads would explode from reality that Mother Nature can take care of herself no matter what we do.
 

Goldfleks

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Emotion > facts in todays world.
 

Madmox

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Mercury getting stirred up? Physics would seem to imply the mercury would head right to the bottom of the dredge sluice with the gold and stay there. Which would in fact be removing it from the river. But hey... what do I know.


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