Knowledge of the laws

[russau]

Barry said some time back that we don't need MMAC ! And currently I agree because MOST people that are mining ,prospecting , dredging DONT bother to read OR completely follow the laws that are on the books! If we did our homework like Barry did and was able to recite it like Barry does , MMAC wouldn't be needed! BUT the fact of the matter is , MOST people don't bother reading or understanding the current laws or bother to keep up with current legislation! SOOOOOO they do need MMAC or someone to guide them! If they would ALL just join MYLANDMATTERS and get involved , they wouldn't need MMAC ! Barry has gone over the top with his support and guidance and I for one SALUTE you for your guidance! In the meantime, how does a person get ALL on board to know what's up OR is it to late for most?? And some people just don't care about knowing the laws or lifting a finger to help the majority!

 

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[Bejay]

3 Years ago I met him on another forum. Long story short: I had been mining for about 30 years at the time and had enjoyed a time when I did my mining without any intrusions. But then began the interjections of all the State and Agency stuff. So between Barry and MEG I started focusing on learning all the mining law and policy stuff. We spent so much time on a GPAA forum talking about it that another and I began a separate mininglawforum......focusing just on learning. Barry was a teacher/instructor as well as another expert contributor......I was/am the moderator. A class instructional system with homework assignments was started and all kinds of mining law stuff became topics of interest. Hefty was a student/contributor as well.

Long story short: I am no Barry, but I have endless files of his writings/teachings, as well as those from MEG and others. I identify each with a title of explanation. My computer holds all this data for me. It only took me 2 years to actually have it memorized in general concepts and applications. All miners need to learn and be knowledgable....as ones ability to convey to the political arena is extremely valuable. Miners are always confronted with unjust intrusions. Know how to reply to those unjust intrusions, is of utmost importance. It has been my experience that when a Federal Agency spouts off with an unjust demand a miners response conveying the correct applications of mining law and agency regulations lets those who are spewing the unjust crud know that you really are not one to mess with; as well as letting the agency heads/staff know that they have error'd.

Then of course now you see that MyLandMatters has taken on efforts to inform and educate......all this derived by efforts of us wanting to see that miners have knowledge. MyLandMatters is a non-profit learning format and can always use support from those who value its' continuance. Barry and his wife spend every day doing the learning site. I have found that the majority of miners would like to have others fight their fight....as we miners really only want to go find gold etc. But in todays world every miner needs to be knowledgeable of the correct applications of gov policies and laws.

Now I am confident I Barry & Hefty and a few others could put together a form letter for these unjust intrusions....like NOI and POO. BUT form letters have little effect on letting the Gov know they are dealing with an educated/informed miner...and that is what matters. Posting the correct CFRs and Laws should allow a miner to create their own letter response....and that has a lot of value when confronting an agency overreach. While the CFR and law stuff seems complex it is really only a matter of knowing which applies and which does not....many in Gov don't even know which applies and they make errors in their application of policies.

As Clay often says: "Heavy Pans"....but he could say "Heavy Knowledge"....as they go hand in hand nowadays!

Bejay

 

[delnorter]

Wow, great thread guys. I'm amazed as well as thankful. I've got a lot more studying to do.

Mike

 

[IMPDLN]

I agree to a certain extent. However mining laws aren't simple like say fishing regulations. Most guys like myself are simple prospectors with day jobs. I am not technically a miner as I have never found a proper deposit that would meet the prudent man rule therefore justifying a claim and a legal mine. So I prospect in hopes that some day I might be fortunate enough to find something mineable and sustainable. I have researched enough to know what I can do and where I can go legally, but it is complicated to understand all the legalities associated with mining for the common man. For this reason we do need other resources to help the common man. Dennis

 

[russau]

Many thanks to all that offer the correct help !

 

[goldenIrishman]

LOL.... Yeah, I'm another one of those that Barry got started on learning the laws and how to use them to our advantage. Turns out that I've got a pretty good mind for deciphering "Legalese". My step mother always said I should have been a lawyer. (Yes, I've forgiven her for that statement)

We all need to become at least passing friends if not intimate partners with the laws that govern our mining activities. Simply starting with gaining knowledge of which of the alphabet grubberment agencies is in control of the areas we are working in and what the limit of their authority is would be a great place to start. In these days of various agencies massively over stepping their mandated authority it's one of the easiest ways to C.Y.A.!!!! Remember: A miner/prospector that is well educated in the laws can be these agencies worst nightmare. I for one (and I'm sure there are others) wouldn't mind giving some of these agencies a few bad dreams.

Maybe if we ask really nicely we could get Barry to do up a thread dedicated to some of the most important laws that miners need to know with link to them all in a single place instead of spread out across the forum like a shotgun pattern at 100 yards.

 

[goldenIrishman]

LOL.... Yeah, I'm another one of those that Barry got started on learning the laws and how to use them to our advantage. Turns out that I've got a pretty good mind for deciphering "Legalese". My step mother always said I should have been a lawyer. (Yes, I've forgiven her for that statement)

We all need to become at least passing friends if not intimate partners with the laws that govern our mining activities. Simply starting with gaining knowledge of which of the alphabet grubberment agencies is in control of the areas we are working in and what the limit of their authority is would be a great place to start. In these days of various agencies massively over stepping their mandated authority it's one of the easiest ways to C.Y.A.!!!! Remember: A miner/prospector that is well educated in the laws can be these agencies worst nightmare. I for one (and I'm sure there are others) wouldn't mind giving some of these agencies a few bad dreams.

Maybe if we ask really nicely we could get Barry to do up a thread dedicated to some of the most important laws that miners need to know with link to them all in a single place instead of spread out across the forum like a shotgun pattern at 100 yards.

 

[Hefty1]

Wow I do believe we have done this before, way back when. It got took all over the place, off thread, and all the naysayers jumped in. It was a real mess. Which made it even harder to under stand.

 

[Bejay]

LOL.... Yeah, I'm another one of those that Barry got started on learning the laws and how to use them to our advantage. Turns out that I've got a pretty good mind for deciphering "Legalese". My step mother always said I should have been a lawyer. (Yes, I've forgiven her for that statement)

We all need to become at least passing friends if not intimate partners with the laws that govern our mining activities. Simply starting with gaining knowledge of which of the alphabet grubberment agencies is in control of the areas we are working in and what the limit of their authority is would be a great place to start. In these days of various agencies massively over stepping their mandated authority it's one of the easiest ways to C.Y.A.!!!! Remember: A miner/prospector that is well educated in the laws can be these agencies worst nightmare. I for one (and I'm sure there are others) wouldn't mind giving some of these agencies a few bad dreams.

Maybe if we ask really nicely we could get Barry to do up a thread dedicated to some of the most important laws that miners need to know with link to them all in a single place instead of spread out across the forum like a shotgun pattern at 100 yards.

Well, this was done on americanmininglawform and Barry would be the first to say that before one attempts anything one MUST clearly understand the meaning of the original mining laws. To do that one MUST use the Bouvier dictionary....as word meanings have changed over time. But this is all captured and exists on the americanminglawform right now. Not only are the lessons and questions Barry posted there but all the responses from the student miners are posted as well. Then the important laws are discussed as well. Even case law (Hefty Case just an example of one). All the info is there. What it takes is an interest to learn...and most often that interest comes at a time AFTER a miner has been subject to the Gov overreach...which is understandable. But nevertheless as pointed out;.... some knowledge should be undertaken.

But I will say it again. Go to the mininglawfourm site and start to paste and copy to your computer. The heading topic for the pasted doc is pretty easy to categorize. Example: "Why the miner need not file an NOI"..... or " How to beat the ticket and win". Then when a miner comes face to face with a Gov issue the miner can refer to the saved doc and study it...then respond to the Gov with applicable facts/data. Pretty easy to do. It is all there...and even then some.

Bejay

http://americanmininglawforum.myfastforum.org/

Bejay

 

[winners58]

you don't have to have everything memorized, knowing where to find answers when it's needed. asking the right questions equally important.

some BLM Manual's to save to your file's;
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/blm_manual.html

Handbooks are the source of detailed instructions for performing specialized procedures to carry out policy and direction described in the Manual Section
Handbooks;
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/blm_handbooks.html

 

[M.E.G.]

Armadillo Mining Shop ( Dredge Sales, Dive Equipment, Mining Supplies and Metal Detectors - Armadillo Mining Shop - ArmadilloMining.com ) in conjunction with Jefferson Mining District ( Jefferson Mining District - Mining Law - South West Oregon Mining Association ) had put together a very nicely categorized binder of pertinent information for study, and in the field use. Or you can make your own by down loading, or copy and paste from here: Jefferson Mining District - Mining in Oregon - South West Oregon Mining Association , http://www.jeffersonminingdistrict.com/BoL/Memorandum_of_Law_51815.pdf , http://www.jeffersonminingdistrict.com/BoL/Highways_and_Trails.pdf .

 

[Bejay]

Remember the BLM and USFS do not write laws. However they must follow laws but often don't.....they create policy ignoring the laws. (political). I tend to stay away from their manuals that they feel are applicable to miners/mining. Knowing when the USFS and BLM apply the wrong CFR's (which are actually their own creations) at the District level have a lot of importance. There are 3 different CFR "claim" applications for 3 types of "mining claims". Applying the wrong one is often done at Districts and by staff.

So a whole set of CFRs exist for the three following types of claims: locatables, leasables and salable. All three have CFR language that can be construed incorrectly. The BLM and USFS often get them confused and will send a valuable locatable mineral claim holder a CFR reference that does not apply. When the miner receives a letter/notice referencing a CFR that has been inappropriately applied it is hard for the miner to dispute the error upon reading the CFR so sighted....because they all reference claims!

Bejay

 

[Hefty1]

you don't have to have everything memorized, knowing where to find answers when it's needed. asking the right questions equally important.

some BLM Manual's to save to your file's;
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/blm_manual.html

Handbooks are the source of detailed instructions for performing specialized procedures to carry out policy and direction described in the Manual Section
Handbooks;
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/blm_handbooks.html

Don't forget Winners that the USFS has their own manuals, that one needs to decipher.