California Mining Laws Info for Noobies (like me)

n01d3x

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I'm new to prospecting\mining, less than a year actually. I have done a ton of research to figure out what I can and can not do here in CA. I have posted and have seen other noobs post questions on the legality of different types of gold mining in CA. This has all been posted before, but figured I would share what I have found in one thread. Honestly it would be nice if there were a sticky or something detailing the mining laws for all gold bearing states. Either way here is what I have found and my opinions, feel free to correct or challenge anything!

This is SB-637 Suction Dredge Mining Permits
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB637
This whole bill is about, as the title implies, suction dredging. This is where the "confusion" is:
Sec 13172.5. (a) For purposes of this section, the use of any vacuum or suction dredge equipment, also known as suction dredging, is the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals.
This sounds like it requires a permit for any motorized mining at all. If you read through the whole bill, it all has to do with, as the title of the bill implies, suction dredging. At no point does this bill mention High Banking or anything other than suction dredging. It is my belief that this does not require a permit for running a motorized High Banker. Note that no where in this bill does it say anything about gas or electric motors, just motors period. If we were to make it mean no motorized mining equipment at all, then why do we not include "mechanized" mining as well? One could argue that a stream sluice, rocker box or anything else is mechanical. Heck even panning has a level of mechanics to it. I know that all sounds absurd, but that's my point.

This is Fish and Game Code Sections 1600-1616.
https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=3784
Section 1602 is what we are concerned about:
1602. (a) An entity may not substantially divert or obstruct the natural flow of, or substantially
change or use any material from the bed, channel, or bank of, any river, stream, or lake, or deposit or
dispose of debris, waste, or other material containing crumbled, flaked, or ground pavement where it
may pass into any river, stream, or lake, unless all of the following occur:
The keyword here is substantially. I do not consider me shoveling into a High Banker running off of a 2" gas powered water pump substantial. I'm sure you can argue the opposite here, but this is my opinion.

And finally CA actually does have regulations in place for high banking:
Codes Display Text
3964. No placer mining operator shall mine by the placer process on any stream or on the watershed of any stream tributary directly or indirectly to the Sacramento River or the San Joaquin River without taking both of the following precautions to prevent pollution of the stream by the effluent from his or her operations:
(a) Constructing a settling pond or ponds of sufficient size to permit the clarification of water used in the mining processes before the water is discharged into the stream.
(b) Mixing with the effluent from mining operations aluminum sulphate and lime, or an equivalent clarifying substance which will cause the solid material in the effluent to coagulate and thus avoid rendering the water in the stream unfit for domestic water supply purposes.

So there you have it, everything I could find on this subject and the actual laws etc, that helped me form my opinion. I printed out a copy of each and keep it in my pack. I hope to never have to argue this with anyone in uniform, but at least I know my rights and the laws. Well, I think I do anyway, lol. Long story short, I do not believe that there is anything illegal about running a high banker (or anything other than a suction dredge) in California.
 

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mikep691

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I high bank in the creek bed, on the bedrock... Use a generator for an electtric pump for one unit and a gas pump for the other. We have a VERY high water mark this year. It's gonna be a great year...if the snow melts enough to get to the claim.
 

chlsbrns

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I have.

but I don't go where F&G or FS are.

no agency has the authority to create a law.
or to redefine one.

if a highbanker discharges waste, then so does a sluice.

Actually you are correct they can't make laws but they are required by law to make rules and regulations. My post above, the one with three links each of which explain that they are not only allowed to make rules and regulations they are required to make rules and regulations. They also set fees and fines.
 

ClaimStake

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correct.

regulations are "color of law".

according to their interpretation. if I pick up a bucket of water and use it to clean out a crack in the bedrock.
this would be considered waste discharge. regardless of water pumping or a sluice box. neither of which have been banned by a law. separately or together.
unless the "power" of that pump is being used to "process" the materials. eg, a crashbox can not be used. hide the jet dry.
and significant disturbance would be a footprint in the sand.
muddying the water well I guess no more swimming.

interpretation is everything.

always be polite and respectful to authorities.

they can not touch you or your equipment without a warrant to do so.

never sign or accept any citation or ticket, fines or fees. unless a judge orders you to.

you submit to their regulations as soon as you understand them.
to understand means to "stand-under" something.

if they ask that if you understand anything they say, say you do not.
you have the right to remain silent.

sometimes playing dumb can be verry wise when done right.

entertain with idle chit chat at your own risk.
 

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mendoAu

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ClaimStake, "they can not touch you or your equipment without a warrant to do so"

Who are you referring to when using "they"?
Here in Oregon I've heard different opinions, some saying only the local sheriff/deputies can issue you a ticket.
 

Goldwasher

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you can run material from above the high water mark...you just have to run it out of the water...That is by definition
high banking". You are working the High bank.

Forest service reg is something like "no introduction of soil or out of stream material to water way" Thats why you use a settling pond or work far enough away that it doesn't matter.

Thats the way it's been done for decades 637 created no new law or regulation that changed that.

Power sluicing is using pump to control flow through your sluice. You can sluice, pan ,snipe ,fan use a cow horn, all you want below high water in stream.
There is a reason they have tried all the various regs and wordings and definitions to stop people from doing what they are allowed.
Because there is no specific law that says other wise.
You are not even running a dredge and fill op. You never needed a NPEDS permit never needed acoe ever. The water board never even got involved.

637 made it the water boards job to set up or deny the permitting process. The lobby (tsf) made the input on the definition trying to make it sound like any motor is banned when you are using it for prospecting and mining.

The reason it is vague and not direct is that they can't do that.

We were talking about regs based on nozzle size at the water board workshop.

I asked the same question I asked on the phone every time I called.....

What nozzle size is a no# 2 shovel?

Their answer believe it or not....well if your feeding with a shovel your not really dredging.

YOU DON"T SAY :BangHead:
 

chlsbrns

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n01d3x

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I have yet to find anything that specifically states I need a discharge permit from the water board to run a high banker, other than the FAQ posted here. I'm confused though, if we are arguing if a permit is needed to high bank, why isn't running a stream sluice in the argument? Heck why not a pan? It's all the same thing. I'm running material over riffles, using the water from the river. Regardless of how I am doing that, that's exactly what I am doing. Whatever flows out of my sluice, down my high banker, or out of my pan is the same for each. That WDR has 0 to do with high banking, it's all about the discharge. If the discharge from my high banker needs a permit, then so does the discharge from my pan. BTW, I just want to point out, that none of this has to do with a motor, so if chlsrns' argument is valid, than we can not do anything but snipe the surface of the riverbed.
 

chlsbrns

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I have yet to find anything that specifically states I need a discharge permit from the water board to run a high banker, other than the FAQ posted here. I'm confused though, if we are arguing if a permit is needed to high bank, why isn't running a stream sluice in the argument? Heck why not a pan? It's all the same thing. I'm running material over riffles, using the water from the river. Regardless of how I am doing that, that's exactly what I am doing. Whatever flows out of my sluice, down my high banker, or out of my pan is the same for each. That WDR has 0 to do with high banking, it's all about the discharge. If the discharge from my high banker needs a permit, then so does the discharge from my pan. BTW, I just want to point out, that none of this has to do with a motor, so if chlsrns' argument is valid, than we can not do anything but snipe the surface of the riverbed.

The FAQ's are from the Water Boards website. They are frequently asked questions such as can I use a highbanker. Oh wait! Isn't that the question that you want an answer too?

A highbanker discharges to LAND! Do you sluice on dry LAND? Discharge to land when panning?

Read the faq again and pay attention to the word LAND. Also take note that you need other permits.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...ng-laws-info-noobies-like-me.html#post5369609
 

Goldwasher

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I have yet to find anything that specifically states I need a discharge permit from the water board to run a high banker, other than the FAQ posted here. I'm confused though, if we are arguing if a permit is needed to high bank, why isn't running a stream sluice in the argument? Heck why not a pan? It's all the same thing. I'm running material over riffles, using the water from the river. Regardless of how I am doing that, that's exactly what I am doing. Whatever flows out of my sluice, down my high banker, or out of my pan is the same for each. That WDR has 0 to do with high banking, it's all about the discharge. If the discharge from my high banker needs a permit, then so does the discharge from my pan. BTW, I just want to point out, that none of this has to do with a motor, so if chlsrns' argument is valid, than we can not do anything but snipe the surface of the riverbed.

you won't find it because it doesn't exist. And as seen with Dreadgernaut you don't have to pay 1200 bucks to apply or find out that your activity is waived from any needed permit.
 

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n01d3x

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My highbanker only discharges to land because THAT IS CA LAW. Otherwise it would discharge to the river, would be way easier. FAQ's are not las or regs. The water board mostay likely has no idea what high banking is, therefore their FAQ's could easily be wrong and misleading. This stuff was thrown in their lap, they don't have the time or resources to do much more than writ a FAQ. To each their own though, I just don't see anything that tells me I can't high bank. I put the actual regs and laws here in one spot so people can easily find them, that's all. Good day sir.
 

chlsbrns

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you won't find it because it doesn't exist. And as seen with Dreadgernaut you don't have to pay 1200 bucks to apply or find out that your activity is waived from any needed permit.
If you read the waste discharge application that I posted twice you would know that it clearly states numerous times to not submit any payments with the application because they may conclude that a permit is not needed.

Dreadgernaut is using a trommel but it still took over a year and numerous applications to numerous agencies to get the approval to mine with specified conditions.

It's bacially what I have shown here over and over again! You need to submit the waste discharge application! You can not just go highbanking without approval.
 

mendoAu

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I'll ponder this line in the first paragraph of the above water board link: " persons discharging or proposing to discharge waste that could affect
the quality of the waters of the State
My dredge does not discharge waste unless it's already in front of my nozzle thus there can only be zero
effect Period. So I just ignored the next several pages. Trump is teaching me how to negotiate....Ha!
Now I don't foresee coming down to Calif. in the near future but I got a dog in this fight. First of all between all the different agencies (some that could write tickets) I'm pretty sure that nothing has changed from years back. Some of these agents don't have a clue, some have it somewhat right, some don't give a hoot, some can be shown paperwork/etc. and told to go back to their supervisor for advice and before they hinder a mining operation they may be sadly putting
themselves in a positon of court actions. I like that last one for obvious reasons...
BUT don't put yourself in a position that you are not prepared to "absorb" and follow thru with.

Now the real reason I'm posting is that I GET IT!! RE: CALL THE WATER BOARD>It's not whether or not you need the water permit, it's to put them on notice and in our case start issueing permits. Also a whole bunch of "highbanking" chat but If I was asked my thoughts on...oh, hell with it, I'll tell ya...Request a permit for DREDGING, granted or not proof is needed by a lot of people that you where refused a permit ( if you are refused you can always file for a highbanker or whatever again). It will probably wind up in court anyway but forcing the water board to follow the law is a good step forward. Why settle for less than what they are supposed to do. If they start getting a couple hundred calls something will happen.
As I started to post this I realized that the cut/paste post I made was over a year old and that nobody has made a post about what their permit that they received in the mail looks. Or my guess is that all this chat is missing the beef.
 

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