May 10, 1872 Act conformity of placer claims to the public land surveys.

[Assembler]

Topic May 10, 1872 Act:

Section 2331 of the Revised Statutes(30 U.S.C. 35)provides that all placer-mining claims located after May 10, 1872, shall conform as nearly as practicable with the United States system of public land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions of such surveys, and such locations shall not include more than 20 acres for each individual claimant.
Conformity of placer claims to the public land surveys.
(a) All placer-mining claims located after May 10, 1872, shall conform as near as practicable with the United States system of public-land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions of such Surveys, whether the locations are upon Surveyed or unsurveyed lands.
(b) Conformity to the public-land Surveys and the rectangular subdivisions thereof will not be required where compliance with such requirement would necessitate the placing of the lines there of upon other prior located claims or where the claim is surrounded by prior locations.

 

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[Bejay]

shall conform as nearly as practicable

 

[Assembler]

surveying the public lands

Bejay pointed out:

shall conform as nearly as practicable

The executive duties pertaining to surveying the public lands is vested in the Director, Bureau of Land Management, under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior (R. S. sec. 453; 43 U. S. C. sec. 2) It is proper for the Director, acting under this authority, to specify how surveys shall be made and plats constructed.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

So, you indicate the 1/4 section your claim falls in. In most cases that can be found by the GPS coordinates.
Jim

 

[Underburden]

Then you have two BLM 'clerks', sitting side by side, looking over location notices.
One says all you need is the Qtr, Qtr, etc.
The other clerk says you need Qtr, Qtr, and Meets and Bounds.
Surveyed lots or not, nobody is on the same page.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I've found that the BLM attitude follows the political climate it manages. Conservative states, fairly easy. Liberal states, pain in the a--.
Jim

 

[Goldwasher]

Then you have two BLM 'clerks', sitting side by side, looking over location notices.
One says all you need is the Qtr, Qtr, etc.
The other clerk says you need Qtr, Qtr, and Meets and Bounds.
Surveyed lots or not, nobody is on the same page.

thats why you go in knowing more than them. It isn't hard even.

At the state office the guys treat you different when they know you know what your talking about.
the field office closest to me not so much. So, I just don't go there.

Seems the people behind the counter in mo0re than one place can be clueless.

I went to the county to pull a survey. The clerk asked a surveyor to come out and help her with a question. When it was mention that mining claim boundaries were being confirmed based on some survey markers. He told her there aren't really mining claims anymore...I was standing right there or I wouldn't think a county surveyor could say such a thing

 

[enamel7]

thats why you go in knowing more than them. It isn't hard even.

At the state office the guys treat you different when they know you know what your talking about.
the field office closest to me not so much. So, I just don't go there.

Seems the people behind the counter in mo0re than one place can be clueless.

I went to the county to pull a survey. The clerk asked a surveyor to come out and help her with a question. When it was mention that mining claim boundaries were being confirmed based on some survey markers. He told her there aren't really mining claims anymore...I was standing right there or I wouldn't think a county surveyor could say such a thing

I hope you straightened him out!

 

[Assembler]

'Placer deposit of Nature'

How does a 'Placer deposit of Nature' "Shall conform as nearly as practicable with the United States system of public land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions"?

 

[Assembler]

"Metes-and-bounds survey"

"Metes-and-bounds survey" is the main surveying practice that prevailed in the greater part of the Colonial States, where the land grants were defined by irregular metes-and-bounds, each depending more or less on the description of the adjoining tract, known by name or survey number, and mostly without common geographic location other than by reference to some well-known natural object.

 

[Assembler]

"Metes-and-bounds survey"?

From Chapter VII page 472, section 472 of Manual of Surveying Instructions 1947:

Metes-and-bounds surveys are required to define the boundaries of irregular tracts which are nonconformable to legal subdivisions. This type of survey ordinarily involves the establishment of the boundaries of claims, grants, or reservations, such as mineral claims, small-holding claims, private-land grants, forest-entry claims, national parks and monuments, Indian reservations, lighthouse reservations, trade and manufacturing sites, homestead claims in Alaska, etc.

The survey procedure is similar for each type of claim, grant, or reservation having irregular boundaries. Monuments are required at each angle point of the tract boundary, which are given serial numbers beginning with No. 1 at the initial point. This is the only monumentation necessary when the lengths of the boundary courses do not exceed 45 chains.

Now ask your self how many 'Active Claims' do you see on a "Plat having irregular boundaries and serial numbered monumentation"?

 

[Clay Diggins]

From Chapter VII page 472, section 472 of Manual of Surveying Instructions 1947:


Now ask your self how many "Active Claims' do you see on a "Plat having irregular boundaries and serial numbered monumentation"?

Thousands every year. Besides the thousands of metes and bounds placer claims all lode claims are located by metes and bounds.

You quoted Section 2331 of the Revised Statutes in your original post. The Revised Statutes were never law - they were only "evidence of the laws". The first U.S. Code didn't exist until 1926 and the Revised Statutes were published in 1875. In other words the "law" you quoted in your first post was not law and is outdated by more than a century. There is no way to coordinate the US Code directly with the failed Revised Statutes. Whatever your source for your original post I wouldn't rely on them for information about the law.

If you want to know what a law says you need to look up the law itself. Here is the text from Section 10 of the actual 1872 Mining Act:

where said placer-claims shall be upon surveyed lands, and conform to legal subdivisions, no further survey or plat shall be required, and all placer mining-claims hereafter located shall conform as near as practicable with the United States system of public land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions of such surveys, and no such location shall include more than twenty acres for each individual claimant, but where such claims cannot be conformed to legal subdivisions, survey and plat shall be made as on unsurveyed lands

Being that there are about 300,000 lode claims (all located by metes and bounds) and there are only about 51,000 placer claims (many located by metes and bounds) only about 15% of all claims are located by conforming to the legal subdivisions.

Heavy Pans

 

[chlsbrns]

Thousands every year. Besides the thousands of metes and bounds placer claims all lode claims are located by metes and bounds.

You quoted Section 2331 of the Revised Statutes in your original post. The Revised Statutes were never law. The first U.S. Code didn't exist until 1926 and the Revised Statutes were published in 1875. In other words the "law" you quoted in your first post was not law and is outdated by more than a century. There is no way to coordinate the US Code directly with the failed Revised Statutes. Whatever your source for your original post I wouldn't rely on them for information about the law.

If you want to know what a law says you need to look up the law itself. Here is the text from Section 10 of the actual 1872 Mining Act:


Being that there are about 300,000 lode claims (all located by metes and bounds) and there are only about 51,000 placer claims (many located by metes and bounds) only about 15% of all claims are located by conforming to the legal subdivisions.

Heavy Pans

If any of you bothered to read the link in the post: Revised Statutes you would realize why you should not pay attention to what certain people write in their posts. I won't bother quoting you can read it yourself to verify that the link contradicts what was written in the post.

Oh damn! I can't help but to quote from the link!

"For nearly nine decades after the Constitution was ratified, those who needed to research federal law had no official codification of laws passed by Congress upon which they could rely. It was only in the 1870s that the first codification of federal statutes was approved by Congress. This predecessor to the U.S. Code, first published in 1875, is known as the Revised Statutes of the United States."

"The Revised Statutes of 1874 was an official codification of the statutes it included. Section 5596 of the Revised Statutes repealed all prior federal statutes passed before December 1, 1873 that were covered by the revision. Additionally, the act of Congress authorizing the publication of the Revised Statutes of 1874 provided that when enacted, the Revised Statutes of 1874 would constitute “legal evidence of the laws and treaties therein contained.” (ch. 333, 18 Stat. 113)"

"If you are interested in determining whether and to what extent a provision of federal law originally included in the Revised Statutes may still be in effect today, you can find where sections of the Revised Statutes of 1878 were classified to the U.S. Code by using Table II of the US Code"

 

[Assembler]

Great input thanks.

Wow great input both Clay Diggins and chlsbrns, thanks. Will have to do some reading and thinking about both inputs.

The Code refereed to is from the "CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (National Archives the the United States 1934)" Title 43 Revised January 1 1964 Subchapter L Part 185 General Mining Regulations. This is refereed to in the Manual of Surveying Instructions as well (1947).

Metes-and-bounds are required to define the boundaries of irregular tracts which are nonconformable to legal subdivisions.

This quote is from Chapter VII "SPECIAL SURVEYS AND INSTRUCTIONS" section 472 page 472 of the Manual of Surveying Instructions (1947).

The Act of March 3, 1925 ( 43 Statute 1144; 43 U.S.C. section 51; Manual, Appendix I), necessitated a detailed revision of the regulations governing the administration of Mineral Surveys, but the field surveying operations remained fixed.

This quote is from section 670 page 669 of the Manual of Surveying Instructions (1947). The "Mineral Surveyor" has to follow this however there appears to be no "Funding at all from Congress" after around 1996 - 98 or so.

 

[Assembler]

" Distinguishing Features of the Mineral Survey"

The following is from section 669 page 669 Chapter X Manual of Surveying Instruction (1947):

These surveys are made to mark the legal boundaries of mineral deposits or ore bearing formations on the public domain, where the boundaries are to be determined by lines other than the normal subdivision of the public lands.

The 'Newer Manuals' have this as well just on a different page. Go take a look.

 

[Assembler]

" Distinguishing Features of the Mineral Survey"

Hello
Notice that the " Distinguishing Features of the Mineral Survey" have to be on or cover a real "Mineral deposits or Ore bearing formations" and can not be made up or faked. If one does not pay attention to this fact can and will lose there "Claim".
So yes the "Mineral Survey" is for both "Placer and Lode Claims" and has to be carried out by a "Recognized Land Office Mineral Surveyor".
Are the 'Light bulb moments' starting to happen out there?

 

[Assembler]

Just in case the 'Light bulb has not turned on yet'.

Hello
Just in case the 'Light bulb has not turned on yet' the following is from pages 472-3 Section 472 about Metes-and-Bounds Surveys:

This type of survey ordinarily involves the establishment of the boundaries of claims, grants, or reservations, such as mineral claims, small-holding claims, private-land grants, forest-entry claims, national parks and monuments, Indian reservations, lighthouse reservations, trade and manufacturing sites, homestead claims in Alaska, etc.

Yep no ordinary "Public Land Surveyor" is going to tell you this at the beginning of a talk. Got to talk to the 'Right Surveyor' about this.
No wonder one can get many different 'Answers at the counter'.

 

[Goldwasher]

Slick Willy era congress put a stop to funding patent process. That is why there is no money for Gov. mineral survey. A major part of the patent process. That is why patents have mineral surveys attached to them.

You can still pay a geologist to do a mineral survey for your own needs and to help perfect your claim. Still required if you want to keep your claim if validity is challenged.

There is a big difference between a mineral survey and what a surveyor does to match map lines with ground lines.

Thanks as usual for the helpful and accurate info Claydiggins. There's gotta be useful info in these threads thanks for being the one to make that happen.

 

[Goldwasher]

in pretty much every aspect of our society and commerce you can go back and quote a law that is no longer a law. You have to know what was repealed or amended and idf it isn't in the federal code it isn't law.

That is something that can't be said about the combined acts as they are codified.

it is also helpful to not cherry pick info in screen shots.

if you are interested in determining whether and to what extent a provision of federal law originally included in the Revised Statutes may still be in effect today, you can find where sections of the Revised Statutes of 1878 were classified to the U.S. Code by using Table II of the US Code. An online version of Table II is available through the Office of the Law Revision Counsel of the House of Representatives. You can also find this table in a volume at the end of the print version of the U.S. Code. To determine what changes may have been made to a statutory provision included in the Revised Statutes prior to its inclusion in the Code, you can consult a reference work entitled Index to the Federal Statutes, 1874-1931. This book includes a table of repeals and amendments that lists each section of the Revised Statutes that was amended or superseded by a later statute, indicates the United States Statutes at Large citation of the amending or repealing statute, and indicates whether the change constituted an amendment or a repeal in whole or in part.

Also it is not polite and against the rules to state on the forum that a member is posting misinformation and to tell other members not to listen to them.

 

[Assembler]

'Current buzz Terms'

Hello
Thanks for the links Goldwasher will have to take a look.

The following may not be much use as it refers to "New Code" however are the 'Current buzz Terms used'.
METES AND BOUNDS
From:
Metes & Bounds vs. Public Lands

Up to the time of the Revolutionary War, or until about the beginning of the nineteenth century, land, when parcelled out, and sold or granted, was described by "Metes and Bounds" and that system is still in existence in the following States, or in those portions of them which h ad been sold or granted when the present plan of surveys was adopted: New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas and the six New England States. To describe land by "Metes and Bounds" is to have a known landmark for a place of beginning, and then follow a line according to the compass-needle (or magnetic bearing), or the course of a stream, or track of an ancient highway. This plan has resulted in endless confusion and litigation, as landmarks decay and change, and it is a well-known fact that the compass-needle varies and does not always point due North.

Metes And Bounds (M&B)
From:
https://thelandpatents.com/dictionary/metes-and-bounds

(1) The designation of a parcel of land by stating the courses and distances around it, or by calling for natural features or recorded monuments. Often the area of the parcel is stated as part of the description. Note that in the opinion of some Authorities, the monument need not be a recorded monument for the term metes-and-bounds description to apply. (2) The designation of a parcel of land by giving the courses and distances around it. Also called description by metes and bounds.
1993
A method of describing a parcel of land by citing the owners of abutting lands and describing the length of each course of a boundary as "along" some apparent line, such as, along the stream" or "along the road." In modern usage, a metes and bounds description includes the bearings and distances of each course.
1980
A true metes and bounds description is a perimeter description of a tract of land containing recitations of measurements and boundaries in sequence around a parcel of land from the point of beginning. Bearings and distances are usually given for each line.
1991
Mine Survey
From:
https://thelandpatents.com/dictionary/mine-survey
A survey to determine the positions and dimensions of underground passages of a mine; also of the natural and artificial features-surface and underground-relating to the mine. As cadastral surveys, they are made to detect, or determine the extent of, underground trespass.
1980
Mineral Estate
From:
https://thelandpatents.com/dictionary/mineral-estate
The rights, title, and interest in minerals which a party owns. The mineral estate is severed from the surface estate in a conveyance when the grantor excepts or reserves all or part of the minerals from the land being conveyed.
2000
Mineral Report
A document developed in response to a specific lands and minerals action or application that addresses the validity of mining claims, appraisal of mineral values, mineral potential, or surface use conflicts. Preparation of mineral reports is described in BLM Manual 3060.
2000
Mineral, Valuable
A deposit of a mineral ore or substance which is useful in commerce or the arts, occurring in quantity and quality sufficient to justify its mining and removal for sale; also, any quantity of such ore or substance in a vein or lode, the size and continuity of which are such as to justify an ordinarily prudent man in the expenditure of his labor and means in an effort to develop a paying mine.
2000
Monument (MON)
A permanent structure used to mark the position of a surveyed point. Common locations for monuments include property or PLSS corners, vertical control points (benchmarks) and horizontal control points (sometimes called triangulation stations).
2000
A physical structure, such as an iron post, marked stone, or tree in place, which marks the location of a corner point established by a Cadastral Survey. Objects, to be ranked as monuments, should have certain physical properties such as visibility, durability and stability, and they must define location with out resorting to measurements. "Monument" and "corner" are not synonymous, although the two terms are often used largely in the same sense.
1980
Monument, Legal
The courts and the general public refer to "monument" as if the term includes such things as reference to an adjoining title, a plat, or physical evidence of a boundary, such as a fence. Occasional reference will be made to natural monuments which would more precisely be classed as topography.
1980

Mining Claim Designation
Land Office code designating a mining claim.
2000
Mining Claim Recordation (MCR)
1) A requirement of FLPMA that mining claimants notify, in writing, the proper BLM office of the location of unpatented mining claims. The notification takes the form of a copy of the county location notice or certificate, supplemented by name or number of the claim, name and current mailing address of the owner or owners of the claim, type of claim, date of location, a description of the location of the claim to closest 160-acre quadrant of a section; and a drawing of the claim plotted on a USGS topographic quadrangle map (or a sketch of the claim referring to some similar topographic base map). 2) An automated system that records the information required by FLPMA that mining claimants notify, in writing, the proper BLM office of the location of unpatented mining claims.
2000