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Thread: Reclamation bond

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  1. #31
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    Mine President

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    I think we should take a commercial dredge right down the Feather River. The heck with the stinking permits.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostminer View Post
    I think we should take a commercial dredge right down the Feather River. The heck with the stinking permits.
    Make sure the there is no "Commercial activities" going on outside of the "Mineral deposit". The registered "Vessel" may also have some 'Issues'. Such as "Cargo or Freight issues".

    The "stinking permits" do not 'Cover' the "Mineral deposits" most likely have something to do with say the "Appropriation of U.S. waters".

    Now that there is a "Moratorium today" there is few "Mineral surveys and the filing of the returns" taking "Place". The "Configuration of the Mineral deposit" is such as to make conformation impracticable can only be determined by the "Discovery points" covering the "Mineral deposit".
    The "Surface disturbance" is usually above the "Mineral deposit".
    Last edited by Assembler; Feb 09, 2018 at 02:25 PM.
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  3. #33
    Charter Member
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    Significant surface disturbance is not prohibited. All mining whether hand or machine, big or small creates some disturbance of the surface resources.

    Again:
    The public land management agencies could care less how many yards or tons your mining plan includes. They don't regulate mining. There is no limit to the amount of material mined under a NOI or POO. The use of machinery doesn't require either an NOI or a POO. It's about the surface resources and how you impact those resources, not which tools you use or how much material you process.

    The point of the POO is to allow the land management agency to input on the best way to mitigate the surface resource impacts.

    Surface resources are the things the claim owner doesn't own like trees, grass, sand, water etc. but the land management agency has the right to regulate and dispose of (sell, give away, lease). Mining itself is not regulated by the land management agencies (BLM, FS) but the impacts on surface resources, which they are responsible for must be minimized by law.

    No public land manager has the right to prevent mining. It's not their decision whether you mine or not. They don't have the option to say no to mining your claim. A POO is created and implemented by the mine operator in consultation with the public land management agency. Should you not agree on the best mining practices to mitigate the surface resources in your mining area you can either begin mining without a POO or bring better information on the mining plan to the table.

    Professional miners put together a mining plan that minimizes surface resource disturbance. They have no problem getting concurrence from the land management agency because they bring acknowledged expertise to the project. A forest "geologist" has nowhere near the experience or knowledge a professional mining engineer has. When push comes to shove the proven professional will trump the forest geologists opinion. Neither the Forest Service nor the BLM have the last word. They can not refuse to approve your mining plan unless your surface disturbance will cause "unnecessary or undue degradation" of the land. According to the Supreme Court:
    a reasonable interpretation of the word 'unnecessary' is that which is not necessary for mining.
    'Undue' is that which is excessive, improper, immoderate or unwarranted.
    If you follow best mining practices the "undue and unnecessary" part isn't a problem.

    Permits and fees are a local phenomenon. 1,000 yards or whatever your local chota is telling you is a limit has nothing to do with a POO or public land management. Those restrictions or requirements can change with a vote or a local agency whim. If you don't like the local permit system you can get it changed by changing your local laws. Compliance, vote or court is your choice when it comes to local regs and permits. Follow them or change them. When you are in someone else's house you follow their rules or leave.

    In my experience a well planned mining operation doesn't require a planning session with the public land management agency. If you are not creating an "unnecessary or undue degradation" of the land your plan is in compliance with the law. Any land management agency that tries to prevent responsible best practice mining with regulations is just being obstructive.

    As far as your local permits and fees... that's why mining in California isn't appealing to professional miners. Jumping through hoops just creates fewer jobs and less profit. There are friendlier more willing places to mine in adjoining states. It isn't the BLM or Forest Service that is the problem, they have the same laws and regulations wherever you mine in the United States. It's your County or State interference that creates a bad mining environment. If you can keep that distinction clear you will understand why Nevada has more than half the mining claims in the United States. Same BLM and Forest laws as California or anywhere else but very different local regulation.

    Inexperienced miners can do a lot of damage so it's best if they employ experts to help them with the practical aspects of mitigating damage to surface resources. That's why NOI and POO processes are in place. If you know enough to mitigate that damage from the beginning the bonding and the process are easy.

    Heavy Pans

  4. #34
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    The vast, remote areas of Nevada definitely make Permitting easier. Or is that a Plan Of Operation LOL.
    Assembler likes this.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostminer View Post
    The vast, remote areas of Nevada definitely make Permitting easier. Or is that a Plan Of Operation LOL.
    Easier to 'Beet around the bush'......I mean dig around the bush......LOL
    There can be a lot less "Surface impact" with less trees and water.
    Last edited by Assembler; Feb 10, 2018 at 11:34 AM.
    ghostminer likes this.

  6. #36

    Oct 2013
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    How close the the waters edge could a person get mining with equipment assumed you had a POO in place? I would love to be able to just start sampling all over using a small excavator.

  7. #37
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    You can get as close as you want. We are in Plumas County, California. We dug 25 ft deep trenches 30 ft from a creek. You just need to have a settling area in place for tailings & runoff. We pumped water directly out of the creek for the trommel.

  8. #38
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    Period Six Mining and Exploration LLC

    Mar 2015
    Sonoran Desert of AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Diggins View Post
    Significant surface disturbance is not prohibited. All mining whether hand or machine, big or small creates some disturbance of the surface resources.

    Again:
    The public land management agencies could care less how many yards or tons your mining plan includes. They don't regulate mining. There is no limit to the amount of material mined under a NOI or POO. The use of machinery doesn't require either an NOI or a POO. It's about the surface resources and how you impact those resources, not which tools you use or how much material you process.
    That's not true.

    https://asmi.az.gov/sites/default/fi...guide_2011.pdf

    Page 29.

    CONDITIONS REQUIRING PERMITS, AUTHORIZATIONS OR FILINGS:
    Activities that ordinarily result in no or negligible disturbance of the public lands or resources
    are termed “casual use.” In general, the operator may engage in casual use activities without
    consulting, notifying or seeking approval from the BLM.

    For exploration activity greater than casual use and which causes surface disturbance of five
    (5) acres or less of public lands; the operator must file a complete Notice with the responsible
    BLM Field Office. Notice is for exploration only and only 1000 tons may be removed for
    testing.


    Also:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/3809.11

    When do I have to submit a plan of operations?
    (a) You must submit a plan of operations and obtain BLM's approval before beginning operations greater than casual use, except as described in 3809.21. Also see 3809.31 and 3809.400 through 3809.434.

    (b) You must submit a plan of operations for any bulk sampling in which you will remove 1,000 tons or more of presumed ore for testing.

    (c) You must submit a plan of operations for any operations causing surface disturbance greater than casual use in the following special status areas where 3809.21 does not apply:
    --------------------------------------------------

    Notice of intent limits you on BLM land to only 1000 tons per year I believe, but it may be per permit period which is two years.

    Also, casual use does have limitations when it comes to mechanized equipment, 12 hp being the limit at which an NOI is required.

    Casual use defined:

    Casual use means activities ordinarily resulting in no or negligible disturbance of the public lands or resources. For example -
    (1) Casual use generally includes the collection of geochemical, rock, soil, or mineral specimens using hand tools; hand panning; or non-motorized sluicing. It may include use of small portable suction dredges. It also generally includes use of metal detectors, gold spears and other battery-operated devices for sensing the presence of minerals, and hand and battery-operated drywashers. Operators may use motorized vehicles for casual use activities provided the use is consistent with the regulations governing such use (part 8340 of this title), off-road vehicle use designations contained in BLM land-use plans, and the terms of temporary closures ordered by BLM.

    (2) Casual use does not include use of mechanized earth-moving equipment, truck-mounted drilling equipment, motorized vehicles in areas when designated as closed to “off-road vehicles” as defined in 8340.0-5 of this title, chemicals, or explosives. It also does not include “occupancy” as defined in 3715.0-5 of this title or operations in areas where the cumulative effects of the activities result in more than negligible disturbance.


    In a nutshell, if you start cutting perennial vegetation you had better get an NOI. If you intend to do anything cumulative greater than five acres, get an NOI. If you're cutting a road, NOI. If any piece of machinery you're using has an engine with greater horsepower than 12, get an NOI. Any pumping of groundwater whether it be for processing or dewatering, you definitely need an NOI and then some.
    This ain't Michigan, its GOLD COUNTRY!

  9. #39

    Apr 2013
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    They definitely do care about what tools being used.

    Forest service is a little different than the BLM they are more worried about the surface disturbance rather than the tools used but its hard to argue an excavator isnt going to create significant surface disturbance. I like Ghostminers method of reclaim as you go. Funny the USFS doesnt care about the use of underground explosives either as long as its not creating surface disturbance either.. I cracked up when I read that...like cool!

    Keep it under and acre or two and a good plan seems like either agency wont be too much hassle unless your impacting named creeks, rivers etc.
    dredgernaut likes this.

  10. #40

    Apr 2013
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    The forest service verbiage sounds to me a little more like its up to the ranger if it needs a plan of operation or just a NOI, different than the BLM exploration lease. Im sure it varies from state to state too.
    dredgernaut likes this.

  11. #41
    Charter Member
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    Nov 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltwaterServr View Post
    That's not true.

    https://asmi.az.gov/sites/default/fi...guide_2011.pdf

    Page 29.

    CONDITIONS REQUIRING PERMITS, AUTHORIZATIONS OR FILINGS:
    Activities that ordinarily result in no or negligible disturbance of the public lands or resources
    are termed “casual use.” In general, the operator may engage in casual use activities without
    consulting, notifying or seeking approval from the BLM.

    For exploration activity greater than casual use and which causes surface disturbance of five
    (5) acres or less of public lands; the operator must file a complete Notice with the responsible
    BLM Field Office. Notice is for exploration only and only 1000 tons may be removed for
    testing.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Reading really is fundamental. There is a big difference between processing ore on site and removing ore for testing.


    Quote Originally Posted by SaltwaterServr View Post
    Notice of intent limits you on BLM land to only 1000 tons per year I believe, but it may be per permit period which is two years.

    Also, casual use does have limitations when it comes to mechanized equipment, 12 hp being the limit at which an NOI is required.

    Casual use defined:

    Casual use means activities ordinarily resulting in no or negligible disturbance of the public lands or resources. For example -
    (1) Casual use generally includes the collection of geochemical, rock, soil, or mineral specimens using hand tools; hand panning; or non-motorized sluicing. It may include use of small portable suction dredges. It also generally includes use of metal detectors, gold spears and other battery-operated devices for sensing the presence of minerals, and hand and battery-operated drywashers. Operators may use motorized vehicles for casual use activities provided the use is consistent with the regulations governing such use (part 8340 of this title), off-road vehicle use designations contained in BLM land-use plans, and the terms of temporary closures ordered by BLM.

    (2) Casual use does not include use of mechanized earth-moving equipment, truck-mounted drilling equipment, motorized vehicles in areas when designated as closed to “off-road vehicles” as defined in 8340.0-5 of this title, chemicals, or explosives. It also does not include “occupancy” as defined in 3715.0-5 of this title or operations in areas where the cumulative effects of the activities result in more than negligible disturbance.


    In a nutshell, if you start cutting perennial vegetation you had better get an NOI. If you intend to do anything cumulative greater than five acres, get an NOI. If you're cutting a road, NOI. If any piece of machinery you're using has an engine with greater horsepower than 12, get an NOI. Any pumping of groundwater whether it be for processing or dewatering, you definitely need an NOI and then some.
    Nowhere in what you quoted is there a standard for an NOI. There are some indications of what casual use is or is not. No indication of what triggers an NOI. That's because the NOI is a voluntary submission by a miner. There is no specific trigger for an NOI except the possibility of undue or unnecessary degradation of the land or it's resources. You won't find it in the regulations or the law. That's because a small dig in one place could create a lot of undue or unnecessary degradation and in another it wouldn't have any effect whatsoever. A knowledgeable miner will know the difference before proceeding.

    There is nothing in the regulations about cutting vegetation for responsible mining, but there is a law allowing mining claim owners to use timber found on their claim for mining uses.
    There is nothing in the regulations about 12 hp or pumping water but there is a legal requirement to perfect your mining claim by proving your deposit.
    In every case the law will trump the regulations. Regulations have to obey the law, not the other way around.
    An NOI is a notice that you want to inform the land management agency of your intent.
    The NOI is self initiated by the miner - not the government. The concept of an NOI is a regulatory creation for surface management - not a law.

    There is no requirement that the BLM or Forest Service change or object to your notice or request a bond. Often you will be informed that your plan doesn't even meet the Notice level even though motors and water are involved.

    There are a lot of NOI on both Forest and BLM managed lands that never require a bond - the subject of this thread. The Forest Service does not require a bond even if they pursue terms for the NOI.

    Responsible mining is a function of responsible miners - not the BLM or Forest Service. Those agencies job is surface resource management. If you interfere in their job and create an undue or unnecessary degradation of the land or the surface resources you just stepped into the land management agency's house. That would be a bad plan of action and those agencies have a duty to stop you.

    Land Matters is working on a system where you can view current and proposed plans and notices from a map. When that feature is available come back and tell me about how NOIs are limited to 1,000 tons of material or two years. Those are myths and rumors you've heard. When you start reviewing real Notice level work you will see it's much simpler and more about individual agreements and individual situations.

    Heavy Pans
    Last edited by Clay Diggins; Feb 10, 2018 at 12:44 AM.
    winners58 likes this.

  12. #42

    Oct 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostminer View Post
    You can get as close as you want. We are in Plumas County, California. We dug 25 ft deep trenches 30 ft from a creek. You just need to have a settling area in place for tailings & runoff. We pumped water directly out of the creek for the trommel.
    I am in Plumas County as well and would be very interested in learning more about the process. Everyone Ive ever spoke to about bringing in equipment has said forget it they will never allow it in CA.

  13. #43
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    Mine President

    Aug 2012
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    Gold Exploration
    There is a process in place. If you follow it you will have no problems. The stuff Diggins is posting might be right but they will get you in trouble fast in Plumas County. If you have the resources to fight the Federal Government in court then have at it. Otherwise work within the system. Your choice. The FS can't arrest you but they can sue you in civil court & they will also take steps to make things difficult for you. Anyway, here is the process.

    (1) Submit a Notice Of Intent to the district ranger in charge of your mining ground. Within 15 days of receipt the district ranger will let you know if a Plan Of Operation with detailed environmental analysis is required. If you are proposing any excavation with mechanized equipment they are going to want a POO. Trust me on that.

    (2) Fill out & submit your Plan Of Operation (POO). On this thread post # 26 I provided a link the the template. Easiest to use separate papers using the form as a guide as there isn't sufficient room when you print the form. You will also have to attach maps, etc. When the FS receives the POO they will start the process as their resources become available. We have done 4 of them so far & you are most likely looking at 6 to 10 months depending on your project. They will want to meet with you on the proposed site. You will need to mark out the area with flags for them. It will have to be less than one acre of ground for each POO. They will then send in environmental people to check for any protected plant & wildlife. If there are any it won't stop you from mining but you may need to take steps to protect them. We had no issues. They will also send in a hydrologist to check your area. You are going to be available on the site to meet with them each time. We had one trip for each person & they don't all come together. We also had to have the state archaeologist look at our areas as it was deemed a significant area. We have hand stacked historic tailing rock which they told us can't be disturbed. I'm not sure what would happen if we did. The virgin ground they could not care less about. We also had the Regional Water Quality Control Board look at the various sites. No discharge permit was required as we were not sending tailing/slurry directly back into the stream. If near a stream you will need a settling area or pond for your discharge. We pumped directly out of the stream for water to the trommel.
    In 3 of the POO'S that are up on a mountain & a distance from the stream we would have to pump long distance & uphill. However, we had an abandoned mine shaft 155 ft deep & flooded out forming a pond. The FS wasn't sure if we could use it without testing the water but the Water Board had no issues with it as the discharge would be in a settling pond & no runoff anywhere near a stream. You will get a letter from the Regional Water Board when approved or if there is an issue. You will also be notified by the FS when approved.

    (3) You will need to post a reclamation bond which covers the FS if you don't reclaim your ground. It is always $3000 for us. If you are running multiple plans as we are doing you reclaim the first project, the FS will have a look, & if satisfied sign off & you transfer the bond to the next project. When you complete your projects & reclamation your bond will be refunded.

    Hope this helps. The entire process is straightforward & not too difficult. You can do it yourself. There is no charge for any of this. However, if you hire some of the various companies or geologists to do this they are going to charge you anywhere from $5000 to $10,000. Not necessary. You will not be able to disturb more than 1000 cubic yards of ground per POO. Also, you can submit a POO on any open ground. One of the reasons to do a POO is to test your ground for mining or claim staking. Once you decide to go over 1000 yds in the area of a POO you will then get into county permitting. In Plumas it will cost you about $2800 for the application fee & then a much higher level of environmental study. Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by ghostminer; Feb 10, 2018 at 08:53 AM.
    winners58 likes this.

  14. #44

    Mar 2016
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    In your trommel video, did the math work out for 50 yards an hour at the end of the day? I suspect probably not.
    Last edited by IMAUDIGGER; Feb 10, 2018 at 09:03 AM.
    All treasures found with permission on private property or on active mining claims.

  15. #45
    us
    Mine President

    Aug 2012
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    Gold Exploration
    Closer to 40.

 

 
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