I've been Claim Jumped!

[Asmbandits]

Where to begin.. So I filed my placer claim back in 2016, Its filled correctly both with the blm and county and has been kept current. Here are some photos of my signs I put up in 2016 and my discovery monument which I made a placard with the claim info on it. The capped pvc pipe contains the location documents.





It has been quite a while since Ive been up to the claim, I like to go after the first big storms to see if anything has changed. I made it up there today with a couple friends and when we first arrived and walked by the location monument I noticed the placard was gone, screws that held it still there... The pvc tube with the location document was there, I looked inside and saw paperwork... ( I wish I would have looked at it now but didn't at the time..)

We explored and detected around as usual, found some gold. I had just figured some A hole took the placard for god knows what..I didn't think much of it other than it sucked until on our way out I walked past one of my claim signs on the trail and saw that someone has blacked out all of my info and put new info!! I immediately recognized the claim name as one I had seen the night prior as I was checking into mylandmatters to see what has changed around my claim, I noticed that there seemed to be some new claims in an area that seemed too small for that acreage.. Now I know why, it was all coming together as I stared at my claim sign..

This genius not only top filled over my claim, which is filled correctly and marked correctly and always maintained and fees paid, he just decided to use my signs and monument while hes at it! I didn't even think to check the pvc tubes documents until riding home, I bet he removed my papers and put in his, and that's why he just removed the placard...

Here is what I found..



Now this happened for two reasons, first is that the idiot did not do the proper research and did not check with the county. This would have made up for the second reason, which was the blm when entering the info on my filed paperwork into the computer database made a typo, which translates in the claim not showing up in some reports in lr2000. I had been in contact with the blm for over two years trying to get this resolved so something like this wouldn't happen. It took 2 years but they have since corrected this mistake and now my claim shows up as should, but the damage has been done.

I am 100% certain my claim has been filled and maintained and kept up with the blm and county properly. The fact remains that this person top filled "claim jumped", most likely committed mineral trespass, defaced my property and stole my property.

What is my proper recourse here? Wouldn't you know it the guy lives just 10 minutes away!! what are the odds!!....

I was thinking of bringing him a copy of my paperwork and asking for my placard back and compensation for the placard and signs and fuel to drive back up to replace everything, and that he stay away from my claim.
If he were to disagree then I would be forced to further action, could I then call the sheriff and file a report?

I feel my demands are more than fare in this situation. I would calmly state everything Ive said here and provide paperwork to back it. My only concern is if he does not comply I understand that the property dispute is a civil matter but that about the mineral trespass and claim jumping and theft/defacement?

Anyone have any thoughts or advise? I could sure use it!

 

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[Bonaro]

Hi there everyone I have never posted to a thread prior to this but I think that there is some false statements being made. I am the one who filed on the previous claim and the whole claim jumper thing is bogus. I was on a dirt bike trail saw some some land and a sign talking about a placer claim. Had no idea what it was and started asking questions. Called the county and they said it hadnt been active since 2016. I asked if I could activate it and they said yes. I paid the fees and then registered it with BLM so its all legal and registered. At the claim nothing had been done since 2016 so i took down the placard and wrote my name on the two little nail on signs. As far as both BLM and El dorado county knew the claim had been abandoned. I have been there twice with my 80 year old father poking around to get him out of the house. If the previous owner had actually called me before blasting me on this post I probably would have more compassion. Then sending me the link showing him blasting me is a jr high school way to handle things. As of now all the records in both the county and the BLM show me as the claim owner so that doesnt give much credibility to the story of it was just a County/BLM filling mistake. I am not sure how I want to handle this as of yet but now you know the whole story !

The paper trail at the County will tell the tale. All claims begin and end at the County. If the original owner has filed his annual assessment paperwork (like he said he did) then that shows possession. This will be superior to your new claim. It is important to note that both the County and the BLM will happily take your money because all they are doing is filing the document. They do not research the validity or location and there is no refund.

You have two choices as I see it... You can concede or you can fight for ownership. I am not an attorney but If the original owner did indeed file his paperwork as claimed then you will spend a lot of money in court and eventually lose. If he failed to to file correctly you will spend a lot of money in court and then perhaps still lose. A lot of this will come down to good faith effort and if the statements in this post are true, he has done that.

Mining claim laws are extremely complex and it is very easy for people to end up where you are. From the info posted it would seem you fell into this and that he is the rightful owner. Please understand his dismay because this is apparently his property you have apparently attempted to take. If the previous owner had called you it would be different but if you had called him it also would have been different. Imagine how you would react if someone changed the address numbers on your house and claimed as their own?

If the paperwork has been filed properly. my advice is to apologize for the misunderstanding and offer to void your (invalid) claim. Then ask if it's ok if you can have use of his claim a couple times a year so you can take your dad out for some panning fun. If you are straight up with him, I am guessing he will oblige.

Neither of you will enjoy settling this in court.

 

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[IMAUDIGGER]

There is a patch of gold bearing ground near me. People that are knowledgeable about mining claim research know that the land was withdrawn from mineral entry. Anybody want to guess if the County and BLM were willing to accept fees paid by various claimants and enter the claim into their system

It takes about 1 year for the BLM to catch the fact that the land is closed to mineral entry then they send a letter out notifying the assuming owner, who lost all of his fees.

Meanwhile signs have been excessively put up and every tree pissed on. They can’t figure out why they keep getting mineral trespassed. “It’s in the BLM system it must be valid!!” Can’t convince them otherwise because the county recorded the notice and BLM accepted their paperwork/fees and published the claim in the LR2000 database.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

“I asked and they said it was open” that was the first statement that jumped out at me.
There is no way to shift the burden of research over to a county employee or the BLM.
That should be understood.

The second was “nothing had been done out at the claim since 2016”.
There is no requirement in California to keep the location notice up to date.
Common misconception that if you walk over to the post and open a mayo jar and find old location notice papers, it is open ground.

One other misconception is that if there are no location notices or signs up, that the ground is open.
No requirement to maintain the initial location notice nor mark the limits of the claim. The burden is on the public to research the public records. People just tear the signs down and do as they please.

 

[Bejay]

Hello Klondi. I would offer the following as a resolve. Go back to the County and find Asmbandits original location papers (or allow him to send/give you a copy)…..along with copies of his work affidavits/maint fee docs etc. The County holds the record and he will have those recorded docs. You must realize that the BLM is only a entity that keeps a payment file/work file...it is merely a file keeper. If the BLM errored in their location plotting per their "filing keeping" it has no standing to offer advice about open or closed status. As a matter of fact all matters relating to such BLM disclosures state right on them that the BLM does not warrant information. All the BLM does is collect some info for their files. The County record will disclose ownership. Who was 1st......Him or you and what does the County paper trail show. Pretty simple resolve....mistakes happen and neither of you will benefit from a squabble when the facts present themselves. Sounds like a pretty easy resolve.


Additionally the BLM will take money for locations all day long...every day....and they will allow overclaiming to be endless.


Thanks for offering the rest of the story Klondi


Bejay

 

[Asmbandits]

Hi there everyone I have never posted to a thread prior to this but I think that there is some false statements being made. I am the one who filed on the previous claim and the whole claim jumper thing is bogus. I was on a dirt bike trail saw some some land and a sign talking about a placer claim. Had no idea what it was and started asking questions. Called the county and they said it hadnt been active since 2016. I asked if I could activate it and they said yes. I paid the fees and then registered it with BLM so its all legal and registered. At the claim nothing had been done since 2016 so i took down the placard and wrote my name on the two little nail on signs. As far as both BLM and El dorado county knew the claim had been abandoned. I have been there twice with my 80 year old father poking around to get him out of the house. If the previous owner had actually called me before blasting me on this post I probably would have more compassion. Then sending me the link showing him blasting me is a jr high school way to handle things. As of now all the records in both the county and the BLM show me as the claim owner so that doesnt give much credibility to the story of it was just a County/BLM filling mistake. I am not sure how I want to handle this as of yet but now you know the whole story !

Steven, I sent you a link to this thread so you could be in the loop and hopefully learn from this mistake you have made, possibly ask some questions of your own. I don't think you understand the seriousness of the mistakes you have made and that I can and will have other means of action to take but was trying to give you a chance to see your fault and do the right thing. What you have done is no different that stealing someones property be it a car or bike or mining claim or custom made placard and if you do not see it that way and would like to hold your ground then I will act accordingly. Your story of finding my discovery monument on your motorcycle sounds just about as I imagined the situation to be, not sure why just because you found it that somehow now it should belong to you. I can tell from your statements as also talking on the phone that you have a very vague understanding of how this stuff works. Your assumption of the blm and county "letting" you claim it makes it legit is far from the case and if you would have known the correct things to look for at the county and blm and not ask them their opinions we would not be here.

I have here on my desk the notice of intent to hold stamped by El dorado county when I filled it there on 8-14-2017. The last paper filled there was my affidavit of assessment work on 10-9-2018. These are what you should have been looking for, had they not been filled you might have something to stand on to some degree. You have to ask for specific documents and know how to understand them when looking into this stuff, asking the clerk at blm or county if land is open or not is not good enough.

I promise you my paperwork is solid with blm and county, this is why when I spoke to you I said you need to verify these thing on your end to see for yourself. I am the rightful owner of the claim you filed over and stole from, If you still cannot see this soon then I will act accordingly, and everything I have done up to this point has been warranted and very lenient...

 

[Asmbandits]

As of now all the records in both the county and the BLM show me as the claim owner so that doesnt give much credibility to the story of it was just a County/BLM filling mistake.

This statement shows just how wrong you are and that you still do not understand how this works. When I run a report I see my claim as should and I see your top filed claim, do you know what a report is or how to run them? Anyone that knows anything can clearly look at the dates and see my claim pre dates the false claim you have created. Everything you claim either sounds strange or doesn't make sense or just is not the way it actually works.. this is why I started this thread and linked you.. this is where you will find the correct info believe it or not.. heck check out mylandmatters.org and run some reports for yourself..

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

It might expedite a resolution if photos of the recorded documents were provided.

Let’s assume for the purpose of discussion, the older claim is still valid and Klondi mistakenly filed over it.

Does Klondi file an “Abandon Mine” notice at the County?

What gets filed at BLM to correct the LR2000 database?

Would Amsbandit have to file another “notice of intent to hold” in order to prevent someone from assuming the claim was abandoned and having a repeat situation?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Abandonment or Relinquishment: If claimants abandon a mining claim or site or relinquish it to the Federal Government, they should file a notice with the proper county or borough office and the BLM state office. No particular form is required; a letter is acceptable. Be sure to include the claim or site name and the BLM serial number. There is no fee to file these documents.

Heavy Pans

 

[OreCart]

We do not have federal land here so if I may ask a question: does the real mineral rights owner have to excavate a certain amount of material per year in order to keep their claim "active".

 

[Clay Diggins]

We do not have federal land here so if I may ask a question: does the real mineral rights owner have to excavate a certain amount of material per year in order to keep their claim "active".

No, there is no such requirement.

Heavy Pans

 

[OreCart]

Okay, sorry to interject, just trying to learn!

 

[Goldwasher]

Yea Steve,

His paper work is very solid.

Remember. Blm input data wrong on his claim too. They also neglected to mention that the "abandoned" claim has the same description and name (almost) Because Jerry bought from someone who screwed up.

He re-filed to fix it. Thats his "active" claim that BLM put in the wrong place if you will.

It is Valid as the day it was located properly.

His recordings are on file.

Your location is invalid from the word Go.

By the way. The desk jockies at the Collection Counters of Babylon. Do not determin when a claim is in valid. They can't even read it properly in the first place.

Some one can though. That guy is called a judge. The reason you need to do you "Due Dilligance"

It also sounds like you made a claim with out discovery.. as in not even prospecting.

However that wouldn't matter because if you did pan or prospect it was in fact on a valid claim.

Therefore if your saying you did prospect. Your admitting to mineral tresspass.

You have said enough to incriminate your self and show that you do not actually under stand the situation you are in.

A claim is maintained by either paying the maintenance fee or yearly assesment. Gerrys claim has been worked yearly to the amount specified in the Mining Law and recorded properly at the county.

The only thing required on the ground is his location monument.

Not seeing signs. (as they are not required) or corners (also not required on this claim)

Gerry has the law on his side and will prevail.


As far as Jr. High stuff

Nope you came into a camp of nice guys. Who look out for eahother. Come in right and you'll get coffee , beans and advice.

If you knock over the percalator... laugh about it and argue for why it's funny.

Its not gonna go well.


With Bandits permission. His serial registry. Redacted of personal and location info for public consumtion.

There are no gaps in the legal duties required to keep a claim valid.

What you did is called top filing. " claim jumping"

Yes it is possible to do on accident...with the help of the county and BLM.

Read their disclaimers. The Judge knows them.

You will not win in court. You won't be getting the money you spent on filing the claim back from either.

It happens to many people every year.

If you "pursue" something legally you will end up spending more money.

You will not be getting any from Bandits. It's just the way it is.

He is in the position to recover costs from you. Should you decide to incur any (more)



Case Disposition: ACTIVE Lead File NumberRequired Maintenance Fee: $155.00 Camc Name & Address Interest Relationship CODY CLAIMANT
PORTLAND, OR 97267-3140 GERALD CLAIMANT

ST FAIRFIELD, CA 94533-4466County / State District EL DORADO COUNTY, CA CENTRAL CALIFORNIA DOMer Twp Rng Sec Subdivision21

SW SEAct Date Code Action Text Action Remarks Receipt Number

09/02/2016 403 LOCATION DATE09/09/2016 395 RECORDATION NOTICE RECD 1 3656057

08/21/2018 480 EVID OF ASSMT FILED 2018 424192208/15/2018

483 SMALL MINER CERT FILED 201908/30/2017

481 NOTICE OF INTENT TO HOLD 2017 396853308/04/2017

483 SMALL MINER CERT FILED 201809/09/2016


484 LOCATION YEAR / MAINTENAN 2017;$155 3656057

11/09/2018 392 MONIES RECEIVED $15.00;1 4303407

09/18/2018 170 ADDRESS CHANGE FILED CODY 09/09/2016 501


ACCT ADV IN LEAD FILE CAMC313546 365605709/09/2016 404 COUNTY RECORDATION 0;0;2016004243609/09/2016 500 MAP IN LEAD FILELine Nr Remarks 0001 VERIF


If you set foot on his claim again and prospect in any way. You will be breaking the law.

I am well aquainted with our S.O. Patrol Deputies and have their numbers in my phone. Cause dispatch is too slow.

The judge has to make the call and that can be made to happen. The deputies here know how this works and are very helpful.


Have some coffee

 

[Clay Diggins]

It might expedite a resolution if photos of the recorded documents were provided.

Let’s assume for the purpose of discussion, the older claim is still valid and Klondi mistakenly filed over it.

Does Klondi file an “Abandon Mine” notice at the County?

What gets filed at BLM to correct the LR2000 database?

Would Amsbandit have to file another “notice of intent to hold” in order to prevent someone from assuming the claim was abandoned and having a repeat situation?

It's well established law that an overclaim has no effect on the senior claim and gives the junior claimant no rights. Even if the senior claim should be abandoned the junior claimant still doesn't have a valid claim.

Professional mining companies always file a relinquishment when they no longer want to keep a claim. I see many thousands filed each year. The reason professionals file a relinquishment rather than just let the claim expire at the end of the mining year is to limit their liability to a specific time period. It's just good business to put the public on notice at the County and the BLM of the fact that you no longer have a claim on the minerals. If you are a publicly traded company it's essential that you close the claim properly and timely.

Being overfiled on an existing senior claim is a liability. If the senior claimant should sue they will win not only the claim but a monetary judgement for their expenses.

Rather than wait for September 1 to roll around and have the BLM tag the claim file as ABANDONED/FORFEITED for non filing a relinquishment ends the overclaim situation and limits the damages that could be awarded. Essentially a full relinquishment of the overclaim in this situation would take away the cloud on the mineral title and stop any lawsuits for a declaration of ownership of the claim.

Asmbandit is under no obligation to file anything with the BLM or the County because he was overclaimed. Overclaims are a civil matter and neither the County nor the BLM have any say in who can claim what. I am very doubtful that any County recorder would ever say that an area is open to claim. That would be a violation of law and a breach of their duty as an elected official.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Okay, sorry to interject, just trying to learn!

It was a reasonable question easily answered OreCart. No need to apologize.

Heavy Pans

 

[Asmbandits]

Most would just call the sheriff, or turn to legal action and not give the opportunity I am offering, to simply admit you made a mistake and that you will retract from any claim to my minerals both in physical and documented form is all I'm after. Believe it or not you top filed on someone who is giving you way more leeway than most would.

If this cannot be met, I will take legal action for the entirety of the situation, civil and criminal.

 

[oldbones]

Hi there everyone I have never posted to a thread prior to this but I think that there is some false statements being made. I am the one who filed on the previous claim and the whole claim jumper thing is bogus.

Unfortunately Kondi the statements being made are not false. What you've done unbeknownst to you, is claim jumping.

I was on a dirt bike trail saw some some land and a sign talking about a placer claim. Had no idea what it was and started asking questions. Called the county and they said it hadnt been active since 2016. I asked if I could activate it and they said yes. I paid the fees and then registered it with BLM so its all legal and registered.

If this is all you did, your claim is invalid. You'll want to research what it takes to properly locate a claim, even an "inactive" one.

At the claim nothing had been done since 2016 so i took down the placard and wrote my name on the two little nail on signs. As far as both BLM and El dorado county knew the claim had been abandoned.

You got the wrong info from the BLM and/or county.

I have been there twice with my 80 year old father poking around to get him out of the house. If the previous owner had actually called me before blasting me on this post I probably would have more compassion.

He is the current owner, not the previous. You have to put yourself in his shoes, you trespassed and defaced his property(unbeknownst to you)

Then sending me the link showing him blasting me is a jr high school way to handle things. As of now all the records in both the county and the BLM show me as the claim owner so that doesnt give much credibility to the story of it was just a County/BLM filling mistake. I am not sure how I want to handle this as of yet but now you know the whole story !

Unfortunately your story proves you are in the wrong, I'm sure ASMbandits sent you the link to this thread so you could possibly learn the error of your way, as taking the legal route will be expensive for you and you will lose the legal battle. Also, this forum is a good place to hang out at, you'll learn quite a bit and you can learn how to properly locate a claim

If you want to message me Klondi, I can show you through the web where Asmbandits claim was still active when you filed over it. I'll try to help you understand where you went wrong.

 

[blackchipjim]

I'm learning a valuable lesson with this thread.

 

[Bodfish Mike]

Klondi -- Steve look at it this way you got a paid education and a lot cheaper than going to law school.

These guys on this site know there stuff and are very helpful.
Got a question ask it and it will get answered.
Welcome to the forum
Mike

 

[Yotakid]

Start up a GoFund for the legal battle I’ll chip in. After reading his response it looks like he doesn’t want to be civil about it.

 

[Asmbandits]

Start up a GoFund for the legal battle I’ll chip in. After reading his response it looks like he doesn’t want to be civil about it.

Thanks for the support Yotakid, I have means to go forward but thank you.