I've been Claim Jumped!

[Asmbandits]

Where to begin.. So I filed my placer claim back in 2016, Its filled correctly both with the blm and county and has been kept current. Here are some photos of my signs I put up in 2016 and my discovery monument which I made a placard with the claim info on it. The capped pvc pipe contains the location documents.





It has been quite a while since Ive been up to the claim, I like to go after the first big storms to see if anything has changed. I made it up there today with a couple friends and when we first arrived and walked by the location monument I noticed the placard was gone, screws that held it still there... The pvc tube with the location document was there, I looked inside and saw paperwork... ( I wish I would have looked at it now but didn't at the time..)

We explored and detected around as usual, found some gold. I had just figured some A hole took the placard for god knows what..I didn't think much of it other than it sucked until on our way out I walked past one of my claim signs on the trail and saw that someone has blacked out all of my info and put new info!! I immediately recognized the claim name as one I had seen the night prior as I was checking into mylandmatters to see what has changed around my claim, I noticed that there seemed to be some new claims in an area that seemed too small for that acreage.. Now I know why, it was all coming together as I stared at my claim sign..

This genius not only top filled over my claim, which is filled correctly and marked correctly and always maintained and fees paid, he just decided to use my signs and monument while hes at it! I didn't even think to check the pvc tubes documents until riding home, I bet he removed my papers and put in his, and that's why he just removed the placard...

Here is what I found..



Now this happened for two reasons, first is that the idiot did not do the proper research and did not check with the county. This would have made up for the second reason, which was the blm when entering the info on my filed paperwork into the computer database made a typo, which translates in the claim not showing up in some reports in lr2000. I had been in contact with the blm for over two years trying to get this resolved so something like this wouldn't happen. It took 2 years but they have since corrected this mistake and now my claim shows up as should, but the damage has been done.

I am 100% certain my claim has been filled and maintained and kept up with the blm and county properly. The fact remains that this person top filled "claim jumped", most likely committed mineral trespass, defaced my property and stole my property.

What is my proper recourse here? Wouldn't you know it the guy lives just 10 minutes away!! what are the odds!!....

I was thinking of bringing him a copy of my paperwork and asking for my placard back and compensation for the placard and signs and fuel to drive back up to replace everything, and that he stay away from my claim.
If he were to disagree then I would be forced to further action, could I then call the sheriff and file a report?

I feel my demands are more than fare in this situation. I would calmly state everything Ive said here and provide paperwork to back it. My only concern is if he does not comply I understand that the property dispute is a civil matter but that about the mineral trespass and claim jumping and theft/defacement?

Anyone have any thoughts or advise? I could sure use it!

 

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[Asmbandits]

I think youall bullied the guy enough, he made a simple mistake.
Doubt he will ever get on this site again.
Gt....

The way you down play everyone else's experience,work and gold here constantly is much more bulling than Ive done simply defending the validity of my claim on a thread I created to do so.

 

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[Asmbandits]

The offender has not responded. I am in the process of moving forward. I really don't feel like I'm out of line or should need to afford the offender any sympathy, he has not even responded to such a simple situation.

I don't feel that I have caused him any more trouble than he has caused himself, And I don't feel like me wanting insight on the situation from my peers is as out of line as some seem to want to make it out to be.

 

[gold tramp]

The way you down play everyone else's experience,work and gold here constantly is much more bulling than Ive done simply defending the validity of my claim on a thread I created to do so.

No worries I just stick to my prospecting journal.
Thanks for letting me know, I will work on the down playing of others.
Gt.......

 

[Asmbandits]

GT you are a master of your trade and not many around left with the hands on knowledge like have and I will always look up to you for that regardless.

 

[Klondi]

Hi there everyone. Since this whole thing started the previous owner has contacted me exactly one time. I am in my mid fifties and run a business for thirty five years. This public opinion drama is ridiculous. He asked me to check into it and do my research. Since this all happened last June and I have a corporation to run a week of due diligence shouldn’t matter. As for being POed about the lack of responce that is silly. If you want to be treated professionally and with curtesy please act accordingly. I have since contacted BLM and Eldorado county. I have talked to both clerks and supervisors I have asked for any file paperwork including updated paperwork and notes I even asked if there was any fees collected other than mine. To all of these questions their answer was no every time. Now what I will do is if you can have the BLM and Eldorado county send me a letter stating that they made a mistake and you are the rightful owner I will gladly relinquish my claim and the fees i paid. However please note they have the claim abandoned in 2017, I filled in June of 2018. You said your letter of intent was filled in October of 18 which is five months after I filled. I honestly hope that you get it figured out and they send me a letter. Until they do they i will treat it as if it is mine.

 

[Asmbandits]

Hi there everyone. Since this whole thing started the previous owner has contacted me exactly one time. I am in my mid fifties and run a business for thirty five years. This public opinion drama is ridiculous. He asked me to check into it and do my research. Since this all happened last June and I have a corporation to run a week of due diligence shouldn’t matter. As for being POed about the lack of responce that is silly. If you want to be treated professionally and with curtesy please act accordingly. I have since contacted BLM and Eldorado county. I have talked to both clerks and supervisors I have asked for any file paperwork including updated paperwork and notes I even asked if there was any fees collected other than mine. To all of these questions their answer was no every time. Now what I will do is if you can have the BLM and Eldorado county send me a letter stating that they made a mistake and you are the rightful owner I will gladly relinquish my claim and the fees i paid. However please note they have the claim abandoned in 2017, I filled in June of 2018. You said your letter of intent was filled in October of 18 which is five months after I filled. I honestly hope that you get it figured out and they send me a letter. Until they do they i will treat it as if it is mine.

Thanks for the reply, the info has been made public here on this thread and publicly from blm and county that clearly shows a valid paper trail with no lapse on my end. I still cannot understand how you are coming to your conclusions and your stance and your response of relying on the blm to clarify this is only showing your misunderstanding still. You, supposed new claim owner are to be aware of what your doing, and understand how to read the paper trail made public to your advantage to avoid this situation in the first place. Your still looking for the answers in the wrong places, even after being shown the truth and how to verify. Ive tried to help you make sense of this to know end. It at this time has become irreverent, expect my demand letter soon.

Here is my blm info, this comes straight from blm and shows valid, the dates pre date your bogus claim.
https://reports.blm.gov/report/LR2000/27/?sn=CAMC313546

Here is a cheat sheet to check the paper trail for gaps.. This is what the judge will be looking for.. no lapse, all valid.
Land Matters Library Item This is all the info right here, your hearing something incorrect from the blm and county, I assure you this, if this is even the case.

 

[Asmbandits]

Also, you never filed a notice of intent to hold with in the time frame or actually at all with the county. This does not help your already bogus claim any either.

 

[bug]

Klondike , I know this area and have actually done some prospecting on unclaimed "open" creek nearby and also unintentionally strayed onto another downstream claim. I will vouch that ASMbandits claim was, and is valid, and was marked at the bridge crossing, at the time I was there, approximately a year and half ago. Checking on BLM LR2000 or Mylandmatters will pull up his file and confirm he predates your over-file: 2016-09-02 verses 2018-06-14. You can also go to the county recorder in Placerville, and pull his claim info. Do a search for his claim name, and you can view his recorded documents. You over filed the guy, plain and simple!

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Klondike , I know this area and have actually done some prospecting on unclaimed "open" creek nearby and also unintentionally strayed onto another downstream claim. I will vouch that ASMbandits claim was, and is valid, and was marked at the bridge crossing, at the time I was there, approximately a year and half ago. Checking on BLM LR2000 or Mylandmatters will pull up his file and confirm he predates your over-file: 2016-09-02 verses 2018-06-14. You can also go to the county recorder in Placerville, and pull his claim info. Do a search for his claim name, and you can view his recorded documents. You over filed the guy, plain and simple!

Bug, The guy said he wants apology letters from BLM and the county saying that they made a mistake.
That leaves out any possibility that responsibility or fault lies elsewhere...

A person could also search by document type and date range if they wanted to be diligent.

Hopefully cool heads prevail if they meet up at the claim.

 

[Nitric]

.Why would BLM tell anyone the claim was abandoned. And I understand it's up to the person to do their research. But if you have to file with BLM and they tell people the wrong info? They should be held responsible to some degree? Or they should give a generic response to people asking questions..."we don't keep track of that info, please research it on your own..." or something like that.

This stuff just seems like such a mess and you would think it would be a little more organized in the system after all these years. I mean...we don't have all this trouble with buying,paying taxes, and selling property..or vehicles..It's somewhat the same thing? why can't the same type of systems be used for claims? Although, the links above look pretty cut and dry...

It would be interesting to know...How much money this type of stuff generates. How much they take in every year in "mistakes" or by giving out wrong info? How often does this type of stuff happen?

 

[Rail Dawg]

Asmbandits I will gladly make a small donation into your "legal fund" if you pursue this case in civil court.

For someone who runs "a corporation" Klondike unfortunately doesn't know what it takes to maintain a claim.

I've made several mistakes over the years in regards to filing/maintaining claims as I learned the process. If I was faced with what Klondike is facing on this forum I would have issued a public apology rather than dig the hole deeper.

Klondike wants an apology letter from the BLM and county? Yet another indication that he has no clue how this all works lol.

I'm serious about the donation. Call this the "Treasure Net Mining District" sticking up for one of it's own.

Chuck

 

[Asmbandits]

.Why would BLM tell anyone the claim was abandoned. And I understand it's up to the person to do their research. But if you have to file with BLM and they tell people the wrong info? They should be held responsible to some degree? Or they should give a generic response to people asking questions..."we don't keep track of that info, please research it on your own..." or something like that.

This stuff just seems like such a mess and you would think it would be a little more organized in the system after all these years. I mean...we don't have all this trouble with buying,paying taxes, and selling property..or vehicles..It's somewhat the same thing? why can't the same type of systems be used for claims? Although, the links above look pretty cut and dry...

It would be interesting to know...How much money this type of stuff generates. How much they take in every year in "mistakes" or by giving out wrong info? How often does this type of stuff happen?

To some extent I agree with you. What good is it to file records if it takes up to years sometimes for the info to be reflected in reports? His argument of the blm and county telling him the land was open, and that my claim was closed in 2017 just sounds completely bogus. It is possible that the blm said that the land was open to mineral entry, meaning it is claimable land, and it was misrepresented as the land was not claimed?

Either way it does not excuse the situation, it really has nothing to do with the property dispute at hand, his argument to the blm and my argument with him are two entirely different arguments in reality. The argument with the blm is just nonsense hes creating by not understanding to proper process, while the property dispute with me is the real issue that he should be focused on.

 

[Asmbandits]

Asmbandits I will gladly make a small donation into your "legal fund" if you pursue this case in civil court.

For someone who runs "a corporation" Klondike unfortunately doesn't know what it takes to maintain a claim.

I've made several mistakes over the years in regards to filing/maintaining claims as I learned the process. If I was faced with what Klondike is facing on this forum I would have issued a public apology rather than dig the hole deeper.

Klondike wants an apology letter from the BLM and county? Yet another indication that he has no clue how this all works lol.

I'm serious about the donation. Call this the "Treasure Net Mining District" sticking up for one of it's own.

Chuck

Much appreciated Chuck! We have given so much info, insight and shown the light to this matter, all I can do is continue to defend myself at the next level. A deemed letter has been mailed and I will file suit if it is not met. I will win, it should be a very easy case for the courts to decide I am very certain. I currently have the means to file suit but appreciate the support very much!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

This issue will either be settled between the 2 parties privately via email, PM, lawyers, or in court. Any insults or attacks on either member will not end well. All members please post by our rules.

 

[Bejay]

.Why would BLM tell anyone the claim was abandoned. And I understand it's up to the person to do their research. But if you have to file with BLM and they tell people the wrong info? They should be held responsible to some degree? Or they should give a generic response to people asking questions..."we don't keep track of that info, please research it on your own..." or something like that.

This stuff just seems like such a mess and you would think it would be a little more organized in the system after all these years. I mean...we don't have all this trouble with buying,paying taxes, and selling property..or vehicles..It's somewhat the same thing? why can't the same type of systems be used for claims? Although, the links above look pretty cut and dry...

It would be interesting to know...How much money this type of stuff generates. How much they take in every year in "mistakes" or by giving out wrong info? How often does this type of stuff happen?

Hi Nitric;

Those are good questions and the BLM (A land management agency) has a very limited scope regarding claims. The HISTORIC Mining Laws dictate what and who is responsible for the location of valuable metallic mineral claims....(all that was prior to the existence of the BLM)…….(those mining laws are stiil on the books today and are the gospel). Congress authorized the BLM to maintain a file for fees paid the US Gov and or work done (affidavits of labor and intent to hold doc). The BLM keeps a file regarding those matters and if the fees or labor are not done accordingly then the claim can be closed. So they simply have a file. If they error in their filing it is their error. Yet the BLM has assumed a role of authority not given them...and all their docs say they can not be held liable for false info.....they merely have a file.


The record (public record) for locating is held at the land office (county recorder)...kinda is self explanatory....the RECORD. That record is open to the public and anyone interested in locating and holding a claim has a record there. So the BLM file shows if fees/labor/intent to hold was done or not. That file can allow a locator to investigate the condition of that file. If BLM errors in their filling it creates a lot of confusion amongst those who believe the BLM holds the record and is the Lawful authority.


Bejay

 

[Bejay]

From my files: and a knowledgeable expert:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that only the "trier of fact" can declare a claim invalid. That would be a judge or magistrate.

The BLM only has Active and Closed case files. They have no legal duty or right to determine if claims are valid if the land status is open to claim at the time of location.

Getting legal advice from the BLM is about as useful as asking your plumber about your medical condition.

You can make an adverse claim and sue the senior locators but the courts are historically very lenient about paperwork mistakes when it comes to mineral claims. You would probably lose if your only complaint is that annual county recordings are missing. If the courts decide against you in an adverse claim it could leave you open to charges of felony mineral trespass by the original locator."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"All county recorders have standards set at the State level for what constitutes a valid public record. In particular Affidavits are required to meet the State standards before a Recorder can accept the document to put it in the public record."

 

[Bejay]

Here is the text and a link to the Federal laws on mining claims. This applies to all Mining Claims on the public lands.

"43 U.S.C. §1744. Recordation of mining claims

(a) Filing requirements
The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located prior to October 21, 1976, shall, within the three-year period following October 21, 1976 and prior to December 31 of each year thereafter, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located after October 21, 1976 shall, prior to December 31 of each year following the calendar year in which the said claim was located, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection:

(1) File for record in the office where the location notice or certificate is recorded either a notice of intention to hold the mining claim (including but not limited to such notices as are provided by law to be filed when there has been a suspension or deferment of annual assessment work), an affidavit of assessment work performed thereon, on 1 a detailed report provided by section 28–1 of title 30, relating thereto.

(2) File in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the instrument filed or recorded pursuant to paragraph (1) of this subsection, including a description of the location of the mining claim sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground.

(c) Failure to file as constituting abandonment; defective or untimely filing

The failure to file such instruments as required by subsections (a) and (b) of this section shall be deemed conclusively to constitute an abandonment of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site by the owner;"

 

[Bejay]

CFR 43 Chapter II §3833.4 - RECORDING MINING CLAIMS AND SITES
Failure to file, or to pay maintenance or location fees.
(b) Failure to file the complete information required in §§3833.1-2(b), 3833.1- 7(d)-(f), 3833.2-4(a), 3833.2-4(b), 3833.2- 5(b) and 3833.2-5(c), when the document is otherwise filed on time, shall not be conclusively deemed to constitute an abandonment or forfeiture of the claim or site, but such information shall be submitted within 30 days of receipt of a notice from the authorized officer calling for such information.
Failure to submit the information requested by the decision of the authorized officer shall result in the mining claim, mill site, or tunnel site being deemed abandoned by the owner.

(d) The fact that an instrument is filed in accordance with other laws permitting filing for record thereof and is defective or not timely filed for record under those laws shall not be considered failure to file under this subpart.
The fact that an instrument is filed for record under this subpart by or on behalf of some, but not all of the owners of the mining claim, mill or tunnel site shall not affect the validity of this filing

 

[Bejay]

The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the codification of the general and permanent rules and regulations by the executive departments and agencies of the federal government of the United States. These get pubolished in the Federal Register.

US Codes: The United States Code is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States. It is prepared by the Office of the Law Revision Counsel of the United States House of Representatives. It gets published in the Federal Register. (known to be the "record").

The Federal Register, abbreviated FR or sometimes Fed. Reg., is the official journal of the federal government of the United States that contains government agency rules, proposed rules, and public notices.[1] It is published daily, except on federal holidays. The final rules promulgated by a federal agency and published in the Federal Register are ultimately reorganized by topic or subject matter and codified in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), which is updated annually.

 

[Nitric]

Hi Nitric;

Those are good questions and the BLM (A land management agency) has a very limited scope regarding claims. The HISTORIC Mining Laws dictate what and who is responsible for the location of valuable metallic mineral claims....(all that was prior to the existence of the BLM)…….(those mining laws are stiil on the books today and are the gospel). Congress authorized the BLM to maintain a file for fees paid the US Gov and or work done (affidavits of labor and intent to hold doc). The BLM keeps a file regarding those matters and if the fees or labor are not done accordingly then the claim can be closed. So they simply have a file. If they error in their filing it is their error. Yet the BLM has assumed a role of authority not given them...and all their docs say they can not be held liable for false info.....they merely have a file.


The record (public record) for locating is held at the land office (county recorder)...kinda is self explanatory....the RECORD. That record is open to the public and anyone interested in locating and holding a claim has a record there. So the BLM file shows if fees/labor/intent to hold was done or not. That file can allow a locator to investigate the condition of that file. If BLM errors in their filling it creates a lot of confusion amongst those who believe the BLM holds the record and is the Lawful authority.


Bejay

After I made that post I started thinking about that and after both of your posts think I have a clearer idea..... I guess our Land records and property taxes are handled the same way in some areas(heck some of them changed to computer not all that long ago, and were still using paper in 2005 and still are horrible at keeping things current on computer.). It takes up to a year sometimes to show a name change or that the taxes were paid. If I call them up they are going to tell me what they see on their computer, but to get the real info you have to go digging at the court house,tax office, or where ever else when looking into buying land too. Then things can still pop up even after doing all of that. A claim sounds more similar than I originally thought. not all that more complicated than doing the records search on a piece of land to purchase just different agency's or offices.