I've been Claim Jumped!

[Asmbandits]

Where to begin.. So I filed my placer claim back in 2016, Its filled correctly both with the blm and county and has been kept current. Here are some photos of my signs I put up in 2016 and my discovery monument which I made a placard with the claim info on it. The capped pvc pipe contains the location documents.





It has been quite a while since Ive been up to the claim, I like to go after the first big storms to see if anything has changed. I made it up there today with a couple friends and when we first arrived and walked by the location monument I noticed the placard was gone, screws that held it still there... The pvc tube with the location document was there, I looked inside and saw paperwork... ( I wish I would have looked at it now but didn't at the time..)

We explored and detected around as usual, found some gold. I had just figured some A hole took the placard for god knows what..I didn't think much of it other than it sucked until on our way out I walked past one of my claim signs on the trail and saw that someone has blacked out all of my info and put new info!! I immediately recognized the claim name as one I had seen the night prior as I was checking into mylandmatters to see what has changed around my claim, I noticed that there seemed to be some new claims in an area that seemed too small for that acreage.. Now I know why, it was all coming together as I stared at my claim sign..

This genius not only top filled over my claim, which is filled correctly and marked correctly and always maintained and fees paid, he just decided to use my signs and monument while hes at it! I didn't even think to check the pvc tubes documents until riding home, I bet he removed my papers and put in his, and that's why he just removed the placard...

Here is what I found..



Now this happened for two reasons, first is that the idiot did not do the proper research and did not check with the county. This would have made up for the second reason, which was the blm when entering the info on my filed paperwork into the computer database made a typo, which translates in the claim not showing up in some reports in lr2000. I had been in contact with the blm for over two years trying to get this resolved so something like this wouldn't happen. It took 2 years but they have since corrected this mistake and now my claim shows up as should, but the damage has been done.

I am 100% certain my claim has been filled and maintained and kept up with the blm and county properly. The fact remains that this person top filled "claim jumped", most likely committed mineral trespass, defaced my property and stole my property.

What is my proper recourse here? Wouldn't you know it the guy lives just 10 minutes away!! what are the odds!!....

I was thinking of bringing him a copy of my paperwork and asking for my placard back and compensation for the placard and signs and fuel to drive back up to replace everything, and that he stay away from my claim.
If he were to disagree then I would be forced to further action, could I then call the sheriff and file a report?

I feel my demands are more than fare in this situation. I would calmly state everything Ive said here and provide paperwork to back it. My only concern is if he does not comply I understand that the property dispute is a civil matter but that about the mineral trespass and claim jumping and theft/defacement?

Anyone have any thoughts or advise? I could sure use it!

 

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[Asmbandits]

After I made that post I started thinking about that and after both of your posts think I have a clearer idea..... I guess our Land records and property taxes are handled the same way in some areas(heck some of them changed to computer not all that long ago, and were still using paper in 2005). It takes up to a year sometimes to show a name change or that the taxes were paid. If I call them up they are going to tell me what they see on their computer, but to get the real info you have to go digging at the court house.

This is correct, the courts don't care what was said to who or when over the phone, they want my proof of physical forms that have been filled with blm and county. I have all of the forms, all show stamped and recorded. I physical have these documents, they superced any data system meant to reflect them. They are the actual documents that were filled with correct info and myself and the blm and county have them im possession physically. Everything else is basically hearsay, when we go to court and I hand over all the documents it won't matter what the blm or county said over the phone or in person, the filing speaks for itself.

 

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[Nitric]

This is correct, the courts don't care what was said to who or when over the phone, they want my proof of physical forms that have been filled with blm and county. I have all of the forms, all show stamped and recorded. I physical have these documents, they superced any data system meant to reflect them. They are the actual documents that were filled with correct info and myself and the blm and county have them im possession physically. Everything else is basically hearsay, when we go to court and I hand over all the documents it won't matter what the blm or county said over the phone or in person, the filing speaks for itself.

...off topic but I have a similar situation with a small piece of land....I have all my paper and what I think are the records, Haven't had the money to correct it. The law is on my side(I think)....but ...it still cost a fortune to show that i'm right!!! Luckily this type of situation that you guys are going through is more cut and dry. Anyone can have an attorney right up something. It will even say at the bottom of some documents that they aren't liable for the info, and run to the court house and file too. The land I'm referring to has 2 deeds, one in my name and one in another guys name. Since he was the last one to file his is what was recorded on the computer...But if you go digging in the plat(?) books mine is in years before...Then the tax issue....He is now paying taxes on it too....I may have waited too long and may loose that little strip to .....ohh whatever it's called in that state when someone claims your land...

I'm just trying to relate the subject to some kind of experience...Since I do want to own a claim one day....My rambling helps sink the ideas in. in a strange way...

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

This is correct, the courts don't care what was said to who or when over the phone, they want my proof of physical forms that have been filled with blm and county. I have all of the forms, all show stamped and recorded. I physical have these documents, they superced any data system meant to reflect them. They are the actual documents that were filled with correct info and myself and the blm and county have them im possession physically. Everything else is basically hearsay, when we go to court and I hand over all the documents it won't matter what the blm or county said over the phone or in person, the filing speaks for itself.

Hopefully a demand letter which includes specific reference to those recorded documents would avoid unecessary legal actions.

 

[Asmbandits]

Hopefully a demand letter which includes specific reference to those recorded documents would avoid unecessary legal actions.

Just think of how much incredibly valuable information pertaining to this situation has been made available here, and how easily it had been disregarded. I made reference to my valid claim by name and loc doc number. This should be sufficient.

I wonder if this thread could be perceived and held as a form of a demand letter, seeing that I have been very clear in my intentions stating the issue and my demands, and having a response from Steven while also being made public and acknowledged by parties not connected to either of us.

Regardless, a certified letter had been mailed.

 

[CoinHunterAZ]

I sincerely hope you guys get things worked out amicably. I will say however that a public internet forum probably isn't the best place to do this! Just my very honest opinion of course

 

[A2coins]

Doesnt surprise me

 

[Bonaro]

 

[OreCart]

...off topic but I have a similar situation with a small piece of land....I have all my paper and what I think are the records, Haven't had the money to correct it. The law is on my side(I think)....but ...it still cost a fortune to show that i'm right!!! Luckily this type of situation that you guys are going through is more cut and dry. Anyone can have an attorney right up something. It will even say at the bottom of some documents that they aren't liable for the info, and run to the court house and file too. The land I'm referring to has 2 deeds, one in my name and one in another guys name. Since he was the last one to file his is what was recorded on the computer...But if you go digging in the plat(?) books mine is in years before...Then the tax issue....He is now paying taxes on it too....I may have waited too long and may loose that little strip to .....ohh whatever it's called in that state when someone claims your land...

I'm just trying to relate the subject to some kind of experience...Since I do want to own a claim one day....My rambling helps sink the ideas in. in a strange way...

I have run into this in a logging situation: you own the land. Tax maps are notoriously wrong. I am not sure how you obtained this property, but you might look into Title Insurance as it could possibly cover the legal costs

Myself, I always have my attorney go back at least 100 years on deeds, and ALL my deeds a Warrantee Deeds.

 

[JosephT]

I have run into this in a logging situation: you own the land. Tax maps are notoriously wrong. I am not sure how you obtained this property, but you might look into Title Insurance as it could possibly cover the legal costs

Myself, I always have my attorney go back at least 100 years on deeds, and ALL my deeds a Warrantee Deeds.

Here where I live the county has a disclaimer that the tax maps should not be used for legal purposes' because of that very thing.

 

[Goldwasher]

I find it comical that dude still thinks you check for validity and open ground By using a claims name as your main point of reference..

Lol.. crackin me up.

The way it has gone down..and the thread has continued is the very reason it should exist in the first place.

You can try and educate people but, some will never learn I guess. Censorship isn't gonna make it better.

Doesn't matter the members name I would take the same stance and chime in with the same info and responses.

In defense of anyone who had this happen to them.

 

[OreCart]

Here where I live the county has a disclaimer that the tax maps should not be used for legal purposes' because of that very thing.

My neighbor and I have a spot now; it is only 42 acres, but he thinks I own it, and I think he owns it; so it sits in limbo. I am NOT going to cut it because if I am wrong, then I will have to pay him for the amount of wood harvested...TIMES THREE! And he would likewise have to do that as well if it proves to be mine.

So it just sits, and that is fine with both of us. The amount of wood on that little land would hardly pay for the surveying costs.

As for the town, they do not care who is actually paying for the actual acres as long as someone is. That is why they are known for being off.

 

[OreCart]

Another thing about property lines here...often times it says in a deed, x amount of acres plus or minus. I can tell you, the ole duffers got pretty "creative" with that term when it came time for property taxes. Plus or Minus might be indicated in acres.

The other thing they were noted for, is pretty crooked lines. Oh the corners were always spot on, but if a good stand of wood was on a property line, whoever was marking it might make a "bulge" in the line. You see that a lot today with satellite photos. Someone will clear cut right up to the line, or right up to a rock wall and it is bulged way out.

 

[Kona Koma]

I like ET955’s approach. Remark your claim and send a certified letter. You may want to have a discussion with the local sheriff to examine legal ramifications. I wouldn’t approach this person directly. If he/she was bold enough to remove your claim documents, then one could expect a bold response. It doesn’t sound innocent to me. Approach cautiously.

 

[blackchipjim]

I kinda like the way Bonaro defused the original conundrum. You should be a U.S. diplomat in the mideast my friend. Mistakes are made and the outcome is up to people involved and how it is handled, cooler heads always prevail.

 

[Bonaro]

I kinda like the way Bonaro defused the original conundrum. You should be a U.S. diplomat in the mideast my friend. Mistakes are made and the outcome is up to people involved and how it is handled, cooler heads always prevail.

I'm no diplomat...just learned a few things in life. I have no idea who is rightful here, it is not my business, only my interest.

The OP came out of the chute like a raging bull and did his best to rally the troops and the over-filer was silent. Both seem to believe they are in the right and if the OP papers are in order he probably is...I haven't seen them so I dont know. I do know that if I were the new filer and Yosemite Sam came at me like this, especially with all the veiled threats, I would sit back and wait for him to shoot his load.

It has been my experience that most issues can be resolved with communication, mediated if necessary. People who threaten to lawyer up at the first offense seldom do and usually have never had the lesson of how painful that can be for everyone. Lawyers are only for when all else fails and the only one that wins is usually the lawyer.

Here is one possible outcome that no one has pointed out. If the new filer decides to just keep going forward with his claim assertion and the OP continues to rage on and runs to the courts, it will be a year or more before this is heard. That is a year of attorney fees and headache for the OP with little or no response from the new filer. When the new filer finally has to defend and spend money he can just surrender and its over... but he still gets a year or maybe 2 of free mining.
Another good reason to try and resolve this peacefully...your results may vary

 

[Asmbandits]

I'm no diplomat...just learned a few things in life. I have no idea who is rightful here, it is not my business, only my interest.

The OP came out of the chute like a raging bull and did his best to rally the troops and the over-filer was silent. Both seem to believe they are in the right and if the OP papers are in order he probably is...I haven't seen them so I dont know. I do know that if I were the new filer and Yosemite Sam came at me like this, especially with all the veiled threats, I would sit back and wait for him to shoot his load.

It has been my experience that most issues can be resolved with communication, mediated if necessary. People who threaten to lawyer up at the first offense seldom do and usually have never had the lesson of how painful that can be for everyone. Lawyers are only for when all else fails and the only one that wins is usually the lawyer.

Here is one possible outcome that no one has pointed out. If the new filer decides to just keep going forward with his claim assertion and the OP continues to rage on and runs to the courts, it will be a year or more before this is heard. That is a year of attorney fees and headache for the OP with little or no response from the new filer. When the new filer finally has to defend and spend money he can just surrender and its over... but he still gets a year or maybe 2 of free mining.
Another good reason to try and resolve this peacefully...your results may vary

Ok.. If this is truly how you feel I am not sure how you came to this. My "rage" has been nothing but stating facts and defending my position and ownership. I would assume and encourage anyone to do the same in this situation. My bringing it to this platform was what I thought would be a perfect outlet to discuss further AFTER the initial polite phone conversation resulted in nothing, still trying to resolve basically on our own... If threats you mean me saying that I have to take further action? What am I suppose to do just let him walk all over me to, is that ok?. I find it strange that so many have such a issue with it, I never thought it would offend folks I guess I never realized it would be looked at so negatively.

Seriously rage? I might come off a little stern I think but Ive been stolen from, and everyone wants to poke ME with a stick for trying to resolve it..

 

[Asmbandits]

Also I never forced him to reply, it could have ended there. I really didn't think he was going to reply, possibly he would read some of what we posted and call me back is what I was thinking would happen at the time..

 

[et1955]

" Due Diligence " Is the key word here, I have been told by the BLM and the county recorders office it is up to the filer to do the proper research before filling, relying on hearsay from government workers is not doing your Due Diligence, you have to go threw all the records and I would also contact the previous owner of the claim to find out what was happening with the claim, it is up to filer to determine all this before filling and if he doesn't he is guilty of claim jumping.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm no diplomat...just learned a few things in life. I have no idea who is rightful here, it is not my business, only my interest.

The OP came out of the chute like a raging bull and did his best to rally the troops and the over-filer was silent. Both seem to believe they are in the right and if the OP papers are in order he probably is...I haven't seen them so I dont know. I do know that if I were the new filer and Yosemite Sam came at me like this, especially with all the veiled threats, I would sit back and wait for him to shoot his load.

It has been my experience that most issues can be resolved with communication, mediated if necessary. People who threaten to lawyer up at the first offense seldom do and usually have never had the lesson of how painful that can be for everyone. Lawyers are only for when all else fails and the only one that wins is usually the lawyer.

Here is one possible outcome that no one has pointed out. If the new filer decides to just keep going forward with his claim assertion and the OP continues to rage on and runs to the courts, it will be a year or more before this is heard. That is a year of attorney fees and headache for the OP with little or no response from the new filer. When the new filer finally has to defend and spend money he can just surrender and its over... but he still gets a year or maybe 2 of free mining.
Another good reason to try and resolve this peacefully...your results may vary

I agree that informed communication is the key to resolving disputes amicably. As a reasonable man asmbandits has been pursuing that resolution.

In this particular situation asmbandits, the senior claimant, also has a legal duty to defend his claim against adverse possession. It's already legally a public matter due to the public record made with the County. It may or may not be wise to bring this subject to a public forum but there might be a valid argument that this has been a reasonable effort on asmbandits part to legally mitigate the damage against his mineral title.

In California as in most states the plaintiff is required to mitigate the damages he sustains:

It has been the policy of the courts to promote the mitigation of damages. The
doctrine applies in tort, wilful as well as negligent. A plaintiff cannot be
compensated for damages which he could have avoided by reasonable effort or
expenditures.” (Green v. Smith (1968) 261 Cal.App.2d 392, 396 [67 Cal.Rptr.
796]

Read the link above to better understand that what asmbandits has done in bringing this dispute to this forum is actually a smart move.

If efforts to settle the matter with informed communication fails the senior claimants duty is still the same - defend his claim against adverse possession. A certified letter recording the senior claimant's knowledge of the transgression and requesting the adverse (junior) claimant to mitigate their violation is a required part of any further action. It appears asmbandits has done that.

Should mitigation efforts fail a quiet title action in the first court of record is the only legal recourse left to the senior claimant. If he doesn't do that he will be reinforcing the cloud on his mineral title. That might work out OK but in the real world things like this are rarely resolved to everyone's satisfaction without further action.

It appears that asmbandits is conducting his affairs regarding this mining claim in line with the law and civil procedure. Would you really suggest to him he should just give up his senior claim and submit to the adverse overclaim rather than protect his property by the only legal method he has? Court may be scary to some but the alternative of just rolling over to whoever wants to to take your stuff is very - California. Please tell me you are not so inclined.

asmbandits is not required to have or pay an attorney. He is allowed to collect his expenses as part of a judgement in his favor. Quiet title actions regarding mining claims are usually a simple matter that often can be cleared up with a brief court appearance by a miner prepared with certified copies of his location record and annual county records. In my experience most overclaimers never even appear in court and either settle the matter before the trial date or simply don't show up to defend their adverse claim. No appearance = default judgement = win for asmbandits.

After the win just sending a copy of the judgement to the BLM will get the adverse claim changed to CLOSED status. Recording the judgement in your claim records with the County Recorder puts potential adverse locators on public notice. Showing the court decision to a Sheriff is enough to get the adverse claimant removed from the claim and possibly jailed if he is found mining the claim.

There is a comprehensive and long established procedure for eliminating adverse mineral claims. Reasonable dialogue is not the end of the senior claimants rights and duties to maintain their claim. Assuming the claim was worth locating and mining why would any reasonable man just give up his minerals to the first person to file some papers in an effort to take his property?

To put it another way - if you found a stranger taking stuff from your garage would you just let them walk away with your possessions if the stranger didn't respond to communication - mediated or not?

I'm not trying to beat up on you with this post Bonaro. I know you mean well. Warning asmbandits against pursuing this matter according to the law because it's inconvenient, time consuming or expensive doesn't really provide a resolution for this adverse claim. Maybe give asmbandits some slack and see where this goes. I think you might be surprised how well the established system works when it's pursued to a resolution.

Heavy Pans

 

[Nitric]

adverse possession.......That was part of the term that I couldn't remember in a post that I made

On the flip side....whether it's the right or wrong move doesn't matter......I could think of a couple reasons why the other party is holding the stand that they are. It may not apply here....but would make a difference in other type situations...Intentions, belief, etc......

I don't think ASmbandits is out of line at all....I'd lose my mind over something like this...even if it seems petty to others...I wore myself out on a property issue, but it comes down to money to fight it.

I really didn't think anyone was making crazy threats or really trashing the other guy....I can see where he's coming from and his stand... It's just one of those things just has to go next step to get sorted out. If his intentions were solid and not out to cheat someone on purpose? Then it's just an unfortunate thing and sucks that he was mislead out of his money....it happens to all of us on something at some point...