I've been Claim Jumped!

[Asmbandits]

Where to begin.. So I filed my placer claim back in 2016, Its filled correctly both with the blm and county and has been kept current. Here are some photos of my signs I put up in 2016 and my discovery monument which I made a placard with the claim info on it. The capped pvc pipe contains the location documents.





It has been quite a while since Ive been up to the claim, I like to go after the first big storms to see if anything has changed. I made it up there today with a couple friends and when we first arrived and walked by the location monument I noticed the placard was gone, screws that held it still there... The pvc tube with the location document was there, I looked inside and saw paperwork... ( I wish I would have looked at it now but didn't at the time..)

We explored and detected around as usual, found some gold. I had just figured some A hole took the placard for god knows what..I didn't think much of it other than it sucked until on our way out I walked past one of my claim signs on the trail and saw that someone has blacked out all of my info and put new info!! I immediately recognized the claim name as one I had seen the night prior as I was checking into mylandmatters to see what has changed around my claim, I noticed that there seemed to be some new claims in an area that seemed too small for that acreage.. Now I know why, it was all coming together as I stared at my claim sign..

This genius not only top filled over my claim, which is filled correctly and marked correctly and always maintained and fees paid, he just decided to use my signs and monument while hes at it! I didn't even think to check the pvc tubes documents until riding home, I bet he removed my papers and put in his, and that's why he just removed the placard...

Here is what I found..



Now this happened for two reasons, first is that the idiot did not do the proper research and did not check with the county. This would have made up for the second reason, which was the blm when entering the info on my filed paperwork into the computer database made a typo, which translates in the claim not showing up in some reports in lr2000. I had been in contact with the blm for over two years trying to get this resolved so something like this wouldn't happen. It took 2 years but they have since corrected this mistake and now my claim shows up as should, but the damage has been done.

I am 100% certain my claim has been filled and maintained and kept up with the blm and county properly. The fact remains that this person top filled "claim jumped", most likely committed mineral trespass, defaced my property and stole my property.

What is my proper recourse here? Wouldn't you know it the guy lives just 10 minutes away!! what are the odds!!....

I was thinking of bringing him a copy of my paperwork and asking for my placard back and compensation for the placard and signs and fuel to drive back up to replace everything, and that he stay away from my claim.
If he were to disagree then I would be forced to further action, could I then call the sheriff and file a report?

I feel my demands are more than fare in this situation. I would calmly state everything Ive said here and provide paperwork to back it. My only concern is if he does not comply I understand that the property dispute is a civil matter but that about the mineral trespass and claim jumping and theft/defacement?

Anyone have any thoughts or advise? I could sure use it!

 

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[OreCart]

I'm no diplomat...just learned a few things in life. I have no idea who is rightful here, it is not my business, only my interest.

The OP came out of the chute like a raging bull and did his best to rally the troops and the over-filer was silent. Both seem to believe they are in the right and if the OP papers are in order he probably is...I haven't seen them so I dont know. I do know that if I were the new filer and Yosemite Sam came at me like this, especially with all the veiled threats, I would sit back and wait for him to shoot his load.

It has been my experience that most issues can be resolved with communication, mediated if necessary. People who threaten to lawyer up at the first offense seldom do and usually have never had the lesson of how painful that can be for everyone. Lawyers are only for when all else fails and the only one that wins is usually the lawyer.

Here is one possible outcome that no one has pointed out. If the new filer decides to just keep going forward with his claim assertion and the OP continues to rage on and runs to the courts, it will be a year or more before this is heard. That is a year of attorney fees and headache for the OP with little or no response from the new filer. When the new filer finally has to defend and spend money he can just surrender and its over... but he still gets a year or maybe 2 of free mining.
Another good reason to try and resolve this peacefully...your results may vary

I was told a long time ago that a good businessman gets two things: a great accountant and an attorney.

For me, I always have an attorney on retainer just for these kind of reasons; so I do not have to worry and fret, and over the years it has saved myself a lot of grief.

The problem I see, was what I warned about in the VERY beginning of this thread, and that is in not having emotion in check. When emotion runs amuck, attorney fees get out of hand. You see that all the time with divorces (I have been through two divorces myself and now teach Divorce Care at our church).

Theft is not easy; I know because I have endured Timber Theft, but it behooved me to keep my emotions in check so I could reiterate facts to my attorney, forest ranger, district attorney, etc. But thankfully court has a means in which to convey emotion; it is called the Victim Impact Statement. In the very beginning of this thread, I urged the robbed, original poster to spend his energies on that, instead of on a public forum. In my case, my patience paid off: I was granted the highest per month restitution ever given in this county: $1800 a month.

Why spend energy giving your adversary ammunition against you in a court of law: save your words for the judge who can decide your fate!

 

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[Asmbandits]

I was told a long time ago that a good businessman gets two things: a great accountant and an attorney.

For me, I always have an attorney on retainer just for these kind of reasons; so I do not have to worry and fret, and over the years it has saved myself a lot of grief.

The problem I see, was what I warned about in the VERY beginning of this thread, and that is in not having emotion in check. When emotion runs amuck, attorney fees get out of hand. You see that all the time with divorces (I have been through two divorces myself and now teach Divorce Care at our church).

Theft is not easy; I know because I have endured Timber Theft, but it behooved me to keep my emotions in check so I could reiterate facts to my attorney, forest ranger, district attorney, etc. But thankfully court has a means in which to convey emotion; it is called the Victim Impact Statement. In the very beginning of this thread, I urged the robbed, original poster to spend his energies on that, instead of on a public forum. In my case, my patience paid off: I was granted the highest per month restitution ever given in this county: $1800 a month.

Why spend energy giving your adversary ammunition against you in a court of law: save your words for the judge who can decide your fate!

I would agree if this were the case but I still don't feel I have flown off the handle, nor given up anything to be used against me, in fact I believe this to be the opposite.

 

[JosephT]

I am new here and new to gold prospecting as well I also don't have to deal with this type of thing here on the east coast. I have read this whole thread and I don't see where the OP has done anything wrong. What I have seen is him and a few others try to educate the claim jumper and others like me who have no clue about the subject or about how things work. The OP has to protect what is his and I thought he went about it the right way. OP please keep us updated as to what happens.

 

[Goldwasher]

Asmbandits paperwork is so solid. There is no need for a lawyer.

This is El Dorado County. Home to the first districts in the territory and the oldest mining county in the state.

The judge will do just fine.

It sure as heck will be heard a lot sooner than a year out as well.

Gerry is doing everything by the books.

 

[Ryano]

I agree with Joseph (welcome to TNet.

I'm also a greenhorn in all things prospecting and mining. It's hard to see how a reasonable person could read through this thread (verifying the applicable rules & laws provided by Clay D., et al) and not realize that they've made a mistake. OP generously laid a path for the other party to make an honorable retreat and it is unfortunate that they're failing to appreciate this.

 

[Bejay]

There is a whole new twist to this thread that can be addressed. It in itself is a learning experience. There is basically two ways to resolve the issue. The easiest is for the two parties to share their info and allow a meeting of the minds to concur that one party is the obvious winner and the other the loser. But in situations where that does not happen, and the matter is to be resolved via adjudication; that determination to adjudicate triggers a process that is predetermined. That process actually is a tedious pain. In the end; prior to both parties court appearance, the judge will have heard/seen all the evidentiary information.....as I understand it. Clay may afford us the knowledge of how that occurs. I don't believe it is legal advice....but it is an outline of how things rightfully proceed.


My experience has been:

So Asmbandits sends a certified letter to Klondi and then Klondi has x amount of days to respond. After some back and forth pertaining to all that; Asmbandits then has Klondi served to appear in court. The Sheriffs office will not do the serving so Asmbandits pays a private licensed party to perform that task. A court date will be assigned and each litigant will be responsible for providing the court with their prepared evidence....and each party will have supplied the other with that very same documentation. So the judge will have the necessary information prior to the parties entering the court. Failure of either party to show up in court will automatically allow the prevailing party who appeared to win.


I have learned from a prior "claim jump" situation that this process takes some time to occur. I believe simply saying that a person talked to someone at a BLM office or a County desk will not hold up as evidence...….I know the BLM will not offer legal advice, and all their file docs are not warranted as correct and I doubt if the County will do anything other than provide copies of recorded docs.


No doubt this thread is and has been a good learning experience for many who may find themselves in such an "over claim" predicament.


Bejay

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I think part of the lesson should be that personal responsibility extends beyond contacting the BLM and the County Recorder and asking them if the ground is open to claiming or if a claim has been abandoned.

Knowing the process of what it takes to file and maintain legitimate ownership of a mining claim.
Understanding legal descriptions and the public land survey system.
Knowing what documents are filed or recorded and the timeline involved.
Knowing it is your responsibility to diligently search the County Records for the necessary documents, by mine name, by owner names, by document type and date range, and by legal description if available. ALL of this falls outside the responsibility of the BLM and the County.

They simply are a repository for the records. Their job is to safeguard,maintain, and provide access. The most help I’ve gotten from a county recorders office is to get pointed in the direction of the microfiche machine, or more recently a computer.

It’s kind of like buying property without going through a Title Company, you better know what the heck your doing and there is nobody to hold your hand.

 

[Trez]

and this is in California...do they even enforce any laws anymore in that State

 

[B H Prospector]

The paper trail at the County will tell the tale. All claims begin and end at the County. If the original owner has filed his annual assessment paperwork (like he said he did) then that shows possession. This will be superior to your new claim. It is important to note that both the County and the BLM will happily take your money because all they are doing is filing the document. They do not research the validity or location and there is no refund.

You have two choices as I see it... You can concede or you can fight for ownership. I am not an attorney but If the original owner did indeed file his paperwork as claimed then you will spend a lot of money in court and eventually lose. If he failed to to file correctly you will spend a lot of money in court and then perhaps still lose. A lot of this will come down to good faith effort and if the statements in this post are true, he has done that.

Mining claim laws are extremely complex and it is very easy for people to end up where you are. From the info posted it would seem you fell into this and that he is the rightful owner. Please understand his dismay because this is apparently his property you have apparently attempted to take. If the previous owner had called you it would be different but if you had called him it also would have been different. Imagine how you would react if someone changed the address numbers on your house and claimed as their own?

If the paperwork has been filed properly. my advice is to apologize for the misunderstanding and offer to void your (invalid) claim. Then ask if it's ok if you can have use of his claim a couple times a year so you can take your dad out for some panning fun. If you are straight up with him, I am guessing he will oblige.

Neither of you will enjoy settling this in court.

I had a similar situation happen to me several years ago. I had filed on some land next to a claim I owned. I called the BLM to make sure it was open as I could not find any corner post or location monument or other signs. I filed on it and several weeks later I got a call from a very pissed off individual who said it belonged to his buddy, calling me every name in the book including claim jumper. I told him the situation of my filing and that I would check into it. In talking to the BLM whom said I could go to court agreed to look it up for me. Turned out the BLM had registered the claim in the wrong state. I called the individual back to tell him what I was told about going to court and the claim filed in the wrong state. I suggested to him that his buddy get the paperwork and signage posted. I was not going to pursue my claim. He then offered me a position to watch over one of his claims close to where I lived and I could work it anytime with my family. A year later he made me a partner in his claim and we became best friends. He has since passed away but it goes to show with some common courtesy and level heads things can work out. That being said make sure everything is checked and double checked before risking being dubbed "Claim Jumper"

 

[Bonaro]

I agree that informed communication is the key to resolving disputes amicably. As a reasonable man asmbandits has been pursuing that resolution.

In this particular situation asmbandits, the senior claimant, also has a legal duty to defend his claim against adverse possession. It's already legally a public matter due to the public record made with the County. It may or may not be wise to bring this subject to a public forum but there might be a valid argument that this has been a reasonable effort on asmbandits part to legally mitigate the damage against his mineral title.

In California as in most states the plaintiff is required to mitigate the damages he sustains:

Read the link above to better understand that what asmbandits has done in bringing this dispute to this forum is actually a smart move.

If efforts to settle the matter with informed communication fails the senior claimants duty is still the same - defend his claim against adverse possession. A certified letter recording the senior claimant's knowledge of the transgression and requesting the adverse (junior) claimant to mitigate their violation is a required part of any further action. It appears asmbandits has done that.

Should mitigation efforts fail a quiet title action in the first court of record is the only legal recourse left to the senior claimant. If he doesn't do that he will be reinforcing the cloud on his mineral title. That might work out OK but in the real world things like this are rarely resolved to everyone's satisfaction without further action.

It appears that asmbandits is conducting his affairs regarding this mining claim in line with the law and civil procedure. Would you really suggest to him he should just give up his senior claim and submit to the adverse overclaim rather than protect his property by the only legal method he has? Court may be scary to some but the alternative of just rolling over to whoever wants to to take your stuff is very - California. Please tell me you are not so inclined.

asmbandits is not required to have or pay an attorney. He is allowed to collect his expenses as part of a judgement in his favor. Quiet title actions regarding mining claims are usually a simple matter that often can be cleared up with a brief court appearance by a miner prepared with certified copies of his location record and annual county records. In my experience most overclaimers never even appear in court and either settle the matter before the trial date or simply don't show up to defend their adverse claim. No appearance = default judgement = win for asmbandits.

After the win just sending a copy of the judgement to the BLM will get the adverse claim changed to CLOSED status. Recording the judgement in your claim records with the County Recorder puts potential adverse locators on public notice. Showing the court decision to a Sheriff is enough to get the adverse claimant removed from the claim and possibly jailed if he is found mining the claim.

There is a comprehensive and long established procedure for eliminating adverse mineral claims. Reasonable dialogue is not the end of the senior claimants rights and duties to maintain their claim. Assuming the claim was worth locating and mining why would any reasonable man just give up his minerals to the first person to file some papers in an effort to take his property?

To put it another way - if you found a stranger taking stuff from your garage would you just let them walk away with your possessions if the stranger didn't respond to communication - mediated or not?

I'm not trying to beat up on you with this post Bonaro. I know you mean well. Warning asmbandits against pursuing this matter according to the law because it's inconvenient, time consuming or expensive doesn't really provide a resolution for this adverse claim. Maybe give asmbandits some slack and see where this goes. I think you might be surprised how well the established system works when it's pursued to a resolution.

Heavy Pans

I think that Asm has already done his due diligence and them some. If his paper work is as he says then he is clearly the senior claimant and the new filer has weak standing. My point is that this is a self resolving situation if both parties do nothing
Ask has no tangible losses save for a few signs, I doubt he can recover he legal expenses when they were voluntary. If the new claimant were to take further action like filing assessment or working the claim that is different. The new claimant did not "take" anything, only made a claim. I think immediately running to court is unnecessary and certainly expensive...mostly for Asm.
I do not suggest that Asm surrender his senior claim. I suggest he has already proven it....if the paper work is as it seems

 

[Asmbandits]

I think that Asm has already done his due diligence and them some. If his paper work is as he says then he is clearly the senior claimant and the new filer has weak standing. My point is that this is a self resolving situation if both parties do nothing
Ask has no tangible losses save for a few signs, I doubt he can recover he legal expenses when they were voluntary. If the new claimant were to take further action like filing assessment or working the claim that is different. The new claimant did not "take" anything, only made a claim. I think immediately running to court is unnecessary and certainly expensive...mostly for Asm.
I do not suggest that Asm surrender his senior claim. I suggest he has already proven it....if the paper work is as it seems

The top filer also did take a aluminum placard on the discovery monument, it did no grow legs, un screw itself from the monument and walk away. The sign was there to deter this situation from happening in the first place with valid information. While not a big deal in the grand scheme of things it is still something I will have to replace due to the actions of the top filer. Not even pursuing, yet another burden the top filer has created for me to correct.

I didn't run to the court, still haven't but I assure you with the stance the top filer has and continues to have it will absolutely be not only necessary but my only option for resolve. And being in my situation the financial burden will fall on the top filer when all is said and done I'm fairly cretin.

 

[Asmbandits]

I’ll have to do some looking when I have a chance, but there must be some type of protection afforded legally to discovery monument vandalism as if not anyone could just come along and do what this guy did with not recourse. That doesn’t sound right. Taking down the signs believing he’s right, ok I kinda see that, and they are not required. But corner markings/discovery monument I would think to be different.

 

[Goldwasher]

The top filer also did take a aluminum placard on the discovery monument, it did no grow legs, un screw itself from the monument and walk away. The sign was there to deter this situation from happening in the first place with valid information. While not a big deal in the grand scheme of things it is still something I will have to replace due to the actions of the top filer. Not even pursuing, yet another burden the top filer has created for me to correct.

I didn't run to the court, still haven't but I assure you with the stance the top filer has and continues to have it will absolutely be not only necessary but my only option for resolve. And being in my situation the financial burden will fall on the top filer when all is said and done I'm fairly cretin.

from his last comment. He still doesn't understand at all I think.

All because someone he isn't even supposed to ask. Gave him info they aren't supposed to give.

Or that didn't even go down that way.

People have a tendency to try and deny mistakes by putting words in other peoples mouths.. Wether or not that persons mouth was even open.

Hence the reason the court doesnt care what the people behind the counter say, do or hand you.

For sure saying all that "you" found showed it abandoned. " The people at the county agreed" While there are infact legal recordings going back years. Yea not gonna cut it.

Honestly All Gerry and the rest of us "bullying" the guy are doing is telling the dude to save his Money.


He has already wasted around $300 bucks Why waste more? The Judge is gonna very briefly look at the filings and recordings. Find Forbandits. and wll award him any costs he has incurred.

Pretty nice of Gerry to give him such a heads up. Big ol' meanie.

 

[Goldwasher]

I’ll have to do some looking when I have a chance, but there must be some type of protection afforded legally to discovery monument vandalism as if not anyone could just come along and do what this guy did with not recourse. That doesn’t sound right. Taking down the signs believing he’s right, ok I kinda see that, and they are not required. But corner markings/discovery monument I would think to be different.

It is vandalism. depending on the act it can be worse than that. Especially removing corners and monuments.

S.O. told me you have to have proof of who did it. I have a case open for a sign and cameras right now.

Deputy also said since they are on atv's and shooting up trees and claim signs that the BLM could potentially get involved.

Though I'm not really interested in reminding BLM that they have gound where I am

So, for now it's just stacking evidence and what footage i can get. Being there as often as I can be. But, they come through late evenings and nights.

 

[OreCart]

Yeah the vandalizing sings is what raised my eyebrows early on. I try to look at things from both sides and I could never understand that aspect of it.

Here in Maine at least, the language is about the same for trying to find a resolution, but it just means almost everything has to go through a court mediator first. A online chatroom is NOT what they are referring to, but maybe things are different in California.

I do hope they can mediate it out though, only because court is not cut and dry. Here, where the courts are clogged up with all kinds of cases, and back logs are 10 months out; all it takes is a judge who feels their time is being wasted to make some crazy verdicts.

 

[OreCart]

Here, we do not have mineral rights issues as much as Timber Theft, and my Great, Great Grandfathered was murdered for it.

Some boys cut over the line, and he was going to his attorney to recover the loss when he was shot while walking the boundary line. The guys doing the cutting claimed it was a hunting accident and got away with the murder since no one could prove otherwise. (1898)

Back in the old days, this sort of thing got mighty serious!

 

[OreCart]

I’ll have to do some looking when I have a chance, but there must be some type of protection afforded legally to discovery monument vandalism as if not anyone could just come along and do what this guy did with not recourse. That doesn’t sound right. Taking down the signs believing he’s right, ok I kinda see that, and they are not required. But corner markings/discovery monument I would think to be different.

Again...different, but here in Maine only Surveyors can mark and remove boundary markers. I can legally refreshen them, but I cannot remove or mark the lines.

It even says in the bible NEVER to remove boundary markers (Proverbs)...

 

[blackchipjim]

If I may interject my humble opinion here. You know where I prospect sometimes has claims listed and sometimes they are listed as closed. I have only twice found claim markers and once they were washed down stream from the claim. I'm an out of state prospector and would research a claim probably to ninth degree before ever taking over an area claim marked or not. I have been reminded more than a few times that it is my responsibility to make certIan I'm not mineral trespassing. I have no desire to trespass on someone else's claim and would just give it up if I made a mistake in doing so.

 

[Bejay]

Is land open or already claimed. That is the question. Since claim markers do not have to be maintained; simply doing the boots on the ground look see does not suffice....most often these markers are destroyed/removed by vandals. Plus in timbered areas like Oregon and Wash they can be extremely hard to see/find. So the next step that usually occurs is a person contacts the BLM and has them check and give a verbal response: yea or nay. Of course one must then know that the BLM is just reference information...(their file)…..it is helpful but not the "real meal deal". The BLM tends to think they are the claim experts so they often volunteer opinions. Then of course the County recorder has documentation that is binding...but even at that; if a claim tends to change names and corners then all one finds is not relevant to "checking out a specific claim by name". I have even seen where claims that are not located properly have been recorded...so this even makes things more difficult.

Lots of overclaiming occurs...especially if the claims tend to overlap bgut are laid out differently. Possession is the key factor to maintain your claim. My Landmatters is always a good reference and it sure would be wise to spread the word. But in most cases Newbies tend to not know a whole lot so they have a tendency to error. One might want to understand possession...it is an important factor.


Bejay

 

[Bejay]

Claim recordings and filings are public information.
The reason you make an informational claim filing with the BLM is so that all public land managers have current notice of your possession. It is presumed under the FLPMA that your annual filing with the BLM is sufficient notice to the land management Agency. Proof of a valid mineral claim. You had better have a certified copy of the County Recorders filing with you or you are just whistling dixie from the Courts point of view. The BLM filing doesn't prove a claim - leave it at home in your claim records.

All county recorders have standards set at the State level for what constitutes a valid public record. In particular Affidavits are required to meet the State standards before a Recorder can accept the document to put it in the public record.

Here is the text and a link to the Federal laws on mining claims. This applies to all Mining Claims on the public lands.

"43 U.S.C. §1744. Recordation of mining claims

(a) Filing requirements
The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located prior to October 21, 1976, shall, within the three-year period following October 21, 1976 and prior to December 31 of each year thereafter, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located after October 21, 1976 shall, prior to December 31 of each year following the calendar year in which the said claim was located, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection:

(1) File for record in the office where the location notice or certificate is recorded either a notice of intention to hold the mining claim (including but not limited to such notices as are provided by law to be filed when there has been a suspension or deferment of annual assessment work), an affidavit of assessment work performed thereon, on 1 a detailed report provided by section 28–1 of title 30, relating thereto.

(2) File in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the instrument filed or recorded pursuant to paragraph (1) of this subsection, including a description of the location of the mining claim sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground.

(c) Failure to file as constituting abandonment; defective or untimely filing

The failure to file such instruments as required by subsections (a) and (b) of this section shall be deemed conclusively to constitute an abandonment of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site by the owner;"