Using a mini-excavator on remote claims, legal?

[firebird]

I just found out that there are mini-excavators that the chinese make for cheap for less than $5k. They're pretty small but they can still dig a hell of a lot more gravel than one man with a shovel could in a day. Would it be legal to use these on a claim on BLM land? I could break them down into smaller parts and then take them to even the most remote claims and put them together there.

 

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[N-Lionberger]

Kind of like running a dredge on a remote claim in California, don't get caught!

 

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[Asmbandits]

Ive had this idea ive been playing with in my head, a utv base mini excavator, take one of them towable ones and attach it to where the bed would be somehow.

Then fab up a lil trailer wash plant to tow behind it, not sure if it would work but sounds possible as an idea, and would be very moveable.

Or fab a small wash plant on the rear of the utv and tow the HF trench digger behind.

 

[Bejay]

Firebird asked: I just found out that there are mini-excavators that the chinese make for cheap for less than $5k. They're pretty small but they can still dig a hell of a lot more gravel than one man with a shovel could in a day. Would it be legal to use these on a claim on BLM land? I could break them down into smaller parts and then take them to even the most remote claims and put them together there.


The question pertaining to legality is one that will bring forth a response from the BLM. Many have already answered it based on the reality of the BLM position and I dare not begin to post the "lawful" criteria for doing an NOI or POO. Legally you would only be required to enter into those contractural agreements with the BLM if you did "significant disturbance": The NOI and POO demands per USFS and BLM always base their request on that term:
"Significant Disturbance"

The term "significant surface disturbance" was a way for the Secretary of the Interior to try to get around the legal standard "unnecessary or undue degradation" found in the FLPMA. So miners should not be distressed by those three words. The following is the only legal definition on which the BLM or Forest Service can rely.
Supreme Court wrote:
"[a] reasonable interpretation of the word 'unnecessary' is that which is not necessary for mining.

'Undue' is that which is excessive, improper, immoderate or unwarranted."

Utah v. Andrus, 486 F. Supp.

995, 1005 n.13 (D. Utah 1979)


That said I would pose the following for those who answered that the BLM would request/demand you do a POO. I would venture to say that most miners use a quad or their vehicle to perform certain tasks on their claims. An example would be to move big boulders or even stumps etc. Thus you are using motorized equipment. The issue of using a small backhoe to save your back is one that makes sense. One can dig a big hole with a pick and shovel...I have seen some very big ones dug. The use of an excavator simply changes the ease by which you dig. So the issue really becomes one of how much do you dig. The BLM will often bring this issue up.


But the reality is the BLM will undoubtedly be taking a stand on the use of an excavator. Legally this has a lawful basis and yet the BLM will most likely ignore the law and simply rely on their own interpretations of their policies (CFR applications) I always tell those close to me: "How much grief do you want to bring upon yourself?"


Bejay

 

[boogeyman]

The chinese stuff have gotten better recently. The cheapest one I've found is a towable backhoe from Harbor Freight for $2899 with good reviews.



https://www.harborfreight.com/9-hp-towable-backhoe-62365.html

Actually talked to a HF guy about these. He bought one for his dad. The first thing the guy said was, "Don't even think you can hook this up & go down the highway!" His dad couldn't go any faster than about 20 or 25. He said it started bounding(??) from side to side & almost went over twice in 5 miles. They're (him & his dad) are looking at upgrading the pump since "everything we have is way under powered so as not to have liability issues & returns." There was an outfit that had similar a few years back, looked more sturdy. They were advertising in all the Popular Science magazines. Wrote to them & the only drawback I could see was it shipped in like 5 or 6 packages & a skid. It'd really suck getting everything except the box with all the hardware. With no weight so to speak I wonder how it'd do trying to push down to get a bucketful of hard clay. Be a fun toy if you've got the bucks!

 

[OreCart]

With no weight so to speak I wonder how it'd do trying to push down to get a bucketful of hard clay. Be a fun toy if you've got the bucks!

This is a common misconception...

The short answer is, they will do fine because they have outriggers and do not need to rely on weight. As the unit is digging, it forces the outriggers harder into the ground. My log trailer does the same thing with its outriggers, and the pictures showing the mini-excavator by the original poster depicts a blade on the front. As long as the operator was doing the digging with the blade in front, it will have plenty of digging ability.

This is far different then my stand alone excavator (Hitachi 160) because it has no blade or outriggers. In that case it uses its counterweight on the back to counteract weight transfer while digging, but it is a balancing act.

Most equipment has this. For instance, a wheel loader has 60% of the weight on the rear tires, and 40% on the front tires, until it gets a bucketful of dirt, when that happens, 60% is transferred to the front, and 40% is in the back. This weight transfer is what sizes the capacity of the bucket. It is why I cannot put a 10 cubic yard bucket on the John Deere 744G; it would be unsafe to operate.

The same weight transfer takes place on a skidder in terms of operating empty, and with a full twitch of wood behind it. It would not pull well if the front tires were off the ground.

All this is tractor science, with drawbar pull, tractive effort, and weight transfer all engineered out so that the machine is efficient at what it does.

 

[OreCart]

Another thing to consider with these smaller machines is break out force.

My log tractor digs really well because its bucket is only a foot wide. Yet, the hydraulic cylinders that power the bucket, have the same PRESURE as my big excavator; 2000 PSI.

My big excavator has a lot more horsepower and larger hydraulic cylinders to match the bucket that is 27 times bigger (1 cubic yard versus 1 cubic foot), but geometry wise, it is the same digging arrangement, and probably the same break out force.

The biggest difference is FLOW. My log loader backhoe moves slow because the hydraulic pump is the size of a fist, where as the pumps in my big excavator are the size of a 30 gallon barrel. I am moving a lot more oil, but it is at the same amount of pressure (2000 PSI).

 

[Johnnybravo300]

Anytime you wonder about Chinese quality just look at the used market. Theres a reason there isnt a market for used Chinese equipment. Cuz its all frail underengineered junk just like those tiny ex's are.
Looks like John deere farted!

 

[Bejay]

Anytime you wonder about Chinese quality just look at the used market. Theres a reason there isnt a market for used Chinese equipment. Cuz its all frail underengineered junk just like those tiny ex's are.
Looks like John deere farted!

7 Years ago I bought a Chinese quad and took it down to the AZ desert for the winter snowbird mining. The steel on the frame and the welds constantly broke....no amount of welding would fix the problems of the crappy steel and thin frame tubing.


There is a backhoe system that fits a quad. It has a Honda Motor and you drive the quad onto the frame and it then attaches to a quad. (I would assume you would want a fairly large quad....not some little thing.


Bejay

 

[Capt Nemo]

I just looked at a Cat version. Ran something like 2700 lbs, so it would be air liftable by a UH-1. (UH-1 = 3800 lbs max external load)

 

[Flavoredit]

Given the passage of time since the original thread, it's advisable to conduct thorough research and seek legal counsel or guidance from relevant authorities to ensure your activities comply with any updated laws or regulations.

 

[Azure]

If you absolutely believe it will not create a significant disturbance, then you do not need to file a NOI. As far as I know, they intentionally left the definition very vague.

If the ranger tells you it is a significant disturbance, then you can file a POO or go to court and prove it wasn't a significant disturbance. Research case law to understand how previous cases were dropped. They will start collecting evidence to use against you in the first interaction, be very careful what you say.

 

[russau]

I've seen videos here on the computer that showed a man that bought a mini - back hoe and was digging in his back yard for a project BUT after a couple of hours that mini broke............ and as expected it was in-fact a Chines mini and NO parts were ava. or they had to be bought and secured from the manufacture in China...... Hard earned cash is hard to come by !!! Buyer Beware !

 

[NarayanSingh]

I rarely comment on the forums, but I can't go by now. So here's the deal - I had a similar situation a while back. Tried all the usual suspects: new starter, solenoid dance, the whole shebang. What finally did the trick for me was giving the battery cables a good once-over. One of them had a sneaky little break that only showed itself when the engine was under load. Swapped it out, and boom, back in business. Might be worth checking if there's any hidden cable drama going on.

 

[russau]

Good tip ! Thanks !

 

[Assembler]

I've seen videos here on the computer that showed a man that bought a mini - back hoe and was digging in his back yard for a project BUT after a couple of hours that mini broke............ and as expected it was in-fact a Chines mini and NO parts were ava. or they had to be bought and secured from the manufacture in China...... Hard earned cash is hard to come by !!! Buyer Beware !

One could replace some of the unavailable China parts for USA parts as a up grade right from the beginning. Pain yes however likely needed step to keep on running.

Maybe some reinforcing of the structure is also called for.

 

[russau]

Junk by any other name is still JUNK ! I bought a John Deere lawn tractor for mowing my lawn and it has broke down several times and I have almost the same in repairs as I do in my purchase price ! I talked to the store owner about it and he says EVERYONE has been forced to save on his costs to be able to make a profit so he could stay in business . He said everyone is doing this now for everything! He said don't buy the cheaper model , instead pay for the better model (upgrade) ,yep you'll pay more BUT you'll get a better product and it'll last as long as you take care of it through general maintenance ! I'd fix these breakdowns myself BUT there are some parts Joe Blow just can't buy unless your a dealer ! This is why you see on some web sites mower's /ATV's ETC. are sold as a parts item and NOT repaired !

 

[supertraq]

It would be great. A few hours after you reassemble it on your claim you could hike back out, write a scathing internet review about what a worthless piece of junk it is and try to find non existent parts for it. Stick with a shovel.

Parts for shovel are plentiful and cheap,,lol