Tunneling

[Rail Dawg]

We are going to dig down about 12-15 feet to reach bedrock. Once hitting bedrock we’d like to dig horizontally to follow the paystreak.

What is the stance of the BLM in regards to tunneling vs open pit mining? What about the State of Nevada? Yes we can search online for this information but would like to hear from someone with real-world experience.

With today’s modern digging machinery it seems easier to open-pit than to tunnel since we aren’t digging into the side of a mountain but instead are following the wash. Not a vein.

It’s taken us years to reach a point in prospecting where we aren’t going to hunt via metal-detecting but instead stick to one spot and dig. We know there can be serious money squandered working with heavy equipment. Is it best to invest in test drilling?

Just curious what the pitfalls are in getting a permit to tunnel. With open-pit it seems more cut and dry. Dig a hole then reclaim as you move along. Trying to keep the mining at Notice level.

Any suggestions and inputs are appreciated!

Chuck

 

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[Tahoegold]

Ok thanks for that. We have access to bigger trucks (F250) for hauling and can rent a bigger truck/trailer if necessary.

This whole thing is going to be a learning experience. The first few times are going to be slow-going but to be honest we’ve both wanted to learn heavy machinery for a long time. We are finally in a position to pursue this level of commitment. I will even consider getting a Class B license. Lots of options to consider and I appreciate your laying down the obstacles we need to overcome.

It’s not going to happen quickly but the only way to get experience is to simply break out of the comfort zone and do it.

If lucky and we don’t do anything too stupid in life we have a good 20 years of productivity ahead of us. Plenty of time to learn.

Thanks again for taking the time to instruct on this important part of mining.

Chuck

That's exactly what I'm offering. Stuff to know to overcome obsticals. So, there's 2 kinds of controls, John Deer "Wobble Sticks" and "Case" levers. I noticed most pros like Case controls. Once you learn one, it's hard to change. I liked the John Deer for beginning as there's only 2 sticks. The case was more complicated, however, I knew which action I was going to perform because that's what each lever did. One function. If you want, I think a rental yard would let you explore the operations of these controls in the yard before you rent. They may even help you to understand the operations. It doesn't take a special Liscence. The bigger/regular size backhoe/loaders require a transport/large truck to deliver. If you have a friend that can do that it would save money. I hope you have a good claim and do well!

 

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[Tahoegold]

That's exactly what I'm offering. Stuff to know to overcome obsticals. So, there's 2 kinds of controls, John Deer "Wobble Sticks" and "Case" levers. I noticed most pros like Case controls. Once you learn one, it's hard to change. I liked the John Deer for beginning as there's only 2 sticks. The case was more complicated, however, I knew which action I was going to perform because that's what each lever did. One function. If you want, I think a rental yard would let you explore the operations of these controls in the yard before you rent. They may even help you to understand the operations. It doesn't take a special Liscence. The bigger/regular size backhoe/loaders require a transport/large truck to deliver. If you have a friend that can do that it would save money. I hope you have a good claim and do well!

Hi GW,
Yes, you can haul that much with an F150. However, there is an issue with stopping and therrfore the need for the F250 which is heavier and can stop that weight. So, even if you can haul that, you are illegally on the road. There are laws about this. Also, if you have a pintal hitch instead of a 2" ball, then the potential weight that can be hauled becomes Class B Liscence material. It's not the weight that they look at entirely, it's also what the trailer is rated for. A car trailer becomes capable of 26,000lbs with a pintal hitch. (This is all examples to explain this point) even empty, at that point, onlt a Class B will do and the right size vehicle as well. Part of the reason they have weight limits printed on the bumper is for legal load reasons, not just for knowing how much the truck handles. Driving a heavy load is dangerous and can get you a ticket worth 2 points! Just so you understand, since this topic came up... TG

 

[akflyer]

Hi GW,
Yes, you can haul that much with an F150. However, there is an issue with stopping and therrfore the need for the F250 which is heavier and can stop that weight. So, even if you can haul that, you are illegally on the road. There are laws about this. Also, if you have a pintal hitch instead of a 2" ball, then the potential weight that can be hauled becomes Class B Liscence material. It's not the weight that they look at entirely, it's also what the trailer is rated for. A car trailer becomes capable of 26,000lbs with a pintal hitch. (This is all examples to explain this point) even empty, at that point, onlt a Class B will do and the right size vehicle as well. Part of the reason they have weight limits printed on the bumper is for legal load reasons, not just for knowing how much the truck handles. Driving a heavy load is dangerous and can get you a ticket worth 2 points! Just so you understand, since this topic came up... TG

Using a pintle hitch on a car trailer that has 5k axles on it does not in any way make it capable of hauling 26k. By changing the hitch alone a trailer will not magically be able to haul more weight than it was designed for. Your call on trying to put 26k on a typical car trailer, but the issue will not be stopping it, it will be getting it rolling with the tires flattened and jammed up against the fenders so tight that they can't possibly roll.

I have hauled trailers up and down the road from AK to Louisiana and just about all point in between with a half ton dozens of times. I haul them on snow and ice covered roads, dirt roads and goat trails. Somehow, by some great miracle, I and literally 10s of thousands of others do it each and every day.

 

[N-Lionberger]

I found an old drift mine that I daydream about working, it has massive potential but it is in a poor spot, while there is an existing adit it is in a really poor spot so I would have to go up and sink a shaft to get in there, even if I could get my truck in there the amount of lumber I would need to shore it all up alone would sink the project.

 

[Tahoegold]

Using a pintle hitch on a car trailer that has 5k axles on it does not in any way make it capable of hauling 26k. By changing the hitch alone a trailer will not magically be able to haul more weight than it was designed for. Your call on trying to put 26k on a typical car trailer, but the issue will not be stopping it, it will be getting it rolling with the tires flattened and jammed up against the fenders so tight that they can't possibly roll.

I have hauled trailers up and down the road from AK to Louisiana and just about all point in between with a half ton dozens of times. I haul them on snow and ice covered roads, dirt roads and goat trails. Somehow, by some great miracle, I and literally 10s of thousands of others do it each and every day.

I have no beef with you. I understand that 100s of folks do this. I hope that this thread will cause folks to read up on the legalities and not rely on hearsay. It would be best if folks found out weather or not they are in legal jeopardy before they risk the consequences for themselves and their family. The weight is not the trailer alone. There's the truck towing, the trailer and the load on the trailer, all being stopped by the weight of the truck that is towing. That is what the law was concerning. Not me.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Jason has it right about running out of tongue weight capacity.
Recently towed a 7100 pound mini-excavator on an 8000 lb. rated car trailer.

1/2 ton pick-up did not have the tongue weight capacity to properly load the equipment on the trailer.
It did not tow well at all and wanted to dangerously sway in a compounding manner.

There was no power or stopping issue. Just couldn't load it properly. Would not recommend it.
I borrowed a 3/4 ton diesel truck to tow it back and had zero problems.

I can tell you that the micro tractors/excavators mentioned above are going to be terribly undersized for digging pay gravel at 12-15 foot in depth. I'd go bigger..

Many rental companies will deliver/pickup for a fee.

 

[Goldwasher]

Jason has it right about running out of tongue weight capacity.
Recently towed a 7100 pound mini-excavator on an 8000 lb. rated car trailer.

1/2 ton pick-up did not have the tongue weight capacity to properly load the equipment on the trailer.
It did not tow well at all and wanted to dangerously sway in a compounding manner.

There was no power or stopping issue. Just couldn't load it properly. Would not recommend it.
I borrowed a 3/4 ton diesel truck to tow it back and had zero problems.

I can tell you that the micro tractors/excavators mentioned above are going to be terribly undersized for digging pay gravel at 12-15 foot in depth. I'd go bigger..

Many rental companies will deliver/pickup for a fee.

you can move quite a bit of material with a 2 ton excavator...and its small enough that you can move it into the ditch you are digging as you go deeper.

Ive seen pools dug that way. and not into aluvium.I'd want a little bigger at least... but a mini ex... is gonna move a lot more material faster than guys digging

 

[Tahoegold]

Absolutely not true! An f-150 has a WIDE range of cargo and towing capacities. you dont need anything close to a 1 ton truck, and people safely tow car haulers (and much bigger TTs) with F-150s every single day. One of those mini excavators wouldnt even be noticeable unless you were trying to go over mountain passes and then that would only make you slow down about 10mph

Hello Jason,
I used to be the guy at the counter at a large rental company. I wouldn't have known about all these rules and laws if I hadn't worked that job. I understand what you are saying about the F150 being "able" to haul loads. I am separating "able" from "Legal". Car trailers, by law, require a 1 ton pickup to even have them hooked up empty. I want to be clear so someone reading this doesn't have the wrong idea. It's not the truck's capability that I'm talking about. The way to know is by looking on the tongue of the trailer. It will have 2 different weight capacities. One for a 2" ball and one for a Pintal hitch. The weight capacity is the: Towing Vehical weight + The Trailer weight + the load weight.
If you drive an F150 with any car trailor even empty, and get pulled over, you can expect a ticket. How do I know? I used to deliver equipment as well. I have been pulled over. The officer read the wrong weight limit on the trailer. He read the pintal hitch weight limit. That put my 1 ton truck into Class B, and I was asked for my medical papers and Class B lic. My company went to court to explain that the trailer had a 2" ball, and brought photos of the trailer tongue weight limits. The courts realized I was legal and dropped the ticket. I remind you, I was empty, nothing on the trailer. It's all about the potential weight limit, not the actual load. If someone reading this wants to do a little research on the requirements in their state or country, I would recomend doing so to stay out of trouble.
An F150 is a 1/2 ton vehicle. An F250 is a 1 ton vehicle. Towing is only half the equation. Stopping is the part that can cause a serious accident. A half ton is not rated to stop a loaded car trailer. And, you will be cited when pulled over. If you cause or are even just involved in an accident, you may not be covered by your insurance as you would be driving illegally. I hope this helps to understand clearly what I'm trying to say. I just want folks to be safe on the road and not get into trouble with the law.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

you can move quite a bit of material with a 2 ton excavator...and its small enough that you can move it into the ditch you are digging as you go deeper.

Ive seen pools dug that way. and not into aluvium.I'd want a little bigger at least... but a mini ex... is gonna move a lot more material faster than guys digging

In all reality...a 12-15 foot cut to pay gravel is quite the chore without the right equipment.
The overburden starts to add up quickly.

I once tried to ramp down into an excavation to dig a 20' deep test hole using a backhoe.
It turned into a huge pit with not much room to dig and no way to get the material to the surface.

 

[Rail Dawg]

What's odd is all over Seven Troughs (Nevada) there are holes dug into the overburden to reach bedrock. Some of these holes are 100-200 ft down. Don't know if once they hit the bedrock they then tunneled horizontally.

Having seen this type of hole it's why we thought it was common practice to dig this way. Even after 100 years the holes haven't caved in on the sides... the compacted gravel looks to be quite solid.

Back then they didn't have the heavier equipment we have today. It wasn't practical to remove a large area of overburden to get to the bedrock.

We understand now it's foolish to tunnel in this type of material. We thought with proper shoring it could be done. This apparently is not the case.

Thanks!

Chuck

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

What's odd is all over Seven Troughs (Nevada) there are holes dug into the overburden to reach bedrock. Some of these holes are 100-200 ft down. Don't know if once they hit the bedrock they then tunneled horizontally.

Having seen this type of hole it's why we thought it was common practice to dig this way. Even after 100 years the holes haven't caved in on the sides... the compacted gravel looks to be quite solid.

Back then they didn't have the heavier equipment we have today. It wasn't practical to remove a large area of overburden to get to the bedrock.

We understand now it's foolish to tunnel in this type of material. We thought with proper shoring it could be done. This apparently is not the case.

Thanks!

Chuck

I'm not sure how many mines in the US rely on drifting through gravel deposits. I'd guess not many.

There is a video that was posted here awhile back that showed a mining operation in Washington I think, where they were using a skid steer with a rock breaker to advance a drift tunnel in densely packed river bed. I only seem to remember seeing shoring near the entrance.

If it had to be continually shored up, the material would have to pay well.

I've thought about drifting (because that was a common practice in my area)..but it's never gone beyond a thought..I think I'd just rent a large excavator and strip overburden before I'd mess with tunneling.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I think this is the video I was thinking of..enjoy. It looks easy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMRSkxxUMpE

 

[Rail Dawg]

I think this is the video I was thinking of..enjoy. It looks easy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMRSkxxUMpE

Hey great video. Looks just like what we've seen in a dozen old mines lol.

Apparently shoring not deemed necessary?

Good point about it simply being better to clear the overburden with machinery. Especially at the shallower depths we're looking at.

Thanks.

Chuck

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I've got some drift tunnels near my property that have 1 ton boulders hanging from the ceiling.
The material is densely packed, but not cemented. No shoring at all, even at the now collapsed entrances.

I always try and remember what drove them to take such risks. It wasn't always "gold fever" or rich ground. It could be pure necessity or desperation - Maybe they HAD to scrape up some gold to pay their tab in town otherwise they wouldn't have winter provisions.

 

[OwenT]

Hey great video. Looks just like what we've seen in a dozen old mines lol.

Apparently shoring not deemed necessary?

Good point about it simply being better to clear the overburden with machinery. Especially at the shallower depths we're looking at.

Thanks.

Chuck

The tunnels at Liberty are in cemented alluvium. The first time I went in one I was pretty wary but after being in them after a while I was very confident of their integrity, not to say I wasn’t still careful because you never know when a rock does decide to come loose.

 

[Tahoegold]

What's odd is all over Seven Troughs (Nevada) there are holes dug into the overburden to reach bedrock. Some of these holes are 100-200 ft down. Don't know if once they hit the bedrock they then tunneled horizontally.

Having seen this type of hole it's why we thought it was common practice to dig this way. Even after 100 years the holes haven't caved in on the sides... the compacted gravel looks to be quite solid.

Back then they didn't have the heavier equipment we have today. It wasn't practical to remove a large area of overburden to get to the bedrock.

We understand now it's foolish to tunnel in this type of material. We thought with proper shoring it could be done. This apparently is not the case.

Thanks!

Chuck

Interesting reading about 7 Troughs
https://westernmininghistory.com/towns/nevada/seven-troughs/

 

[BillA]

today
SEVEN TROUGHS, NV | Timberline Resources

 

[Tahoegold]

today
SEVEN TROUGHS, NV | Timberline Resources

The article says they purchased in June 2012. Not sure if it fell through or if it's still going.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

The article says they purchased in June 2012. Not sure if it fell through or if it's still going.

based on the values presented via. modern exploratory corings...they are not doing much.