Must BLM land have public access?
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Thread: Must BLM land have public access?

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  1. #1
    us
    Jun 2017
    Lake Elsinore, California
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    Must BLM land have public access?

    There a couple blm patches near me in SoCal that seem to have no publiroad access, surrounded by private property. Is there any law stating there must be any type of easement on the private property to allow public access to fully surrounded public land?
    God. Freedom. Natural Rights.

  2. #2

    Mar 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthos View Post
    There a couple blm patches near me in SoCal that seem to have no publiroad access, surrounded by private property. Is there any law stating there must be any type of easement on the private property to allow public access to fully surrounded public land?
    There are hundreds of thousands of acres of landlocked public land.
    The gov. actually gives preference to adjacent land owners in an effort to consolidate odd little pieces.

    Every other square mile of land for 10 miles either side of the railroads was given to the railroad companies. I know they reserved easements for existing ditches and canals..obviously roads...but blanket ingress egress into the public ground is not something Iím familiar with.

    Maybe someone else will have something concrete for you.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

  3. #3
    us
    Dec 2010
    SW Oregon
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    There could be an easment. You would have to check with the BLM office that administers the land. They would need Township, Range, Section or subdivision there of.

  4. #4
    us
    Love Gold

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    Donít ď We The People ď own that land ?

  5. #5
    us
    Jul 2004
    Angels Camp,Ca.
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    You have no right to cross private property to get to landlocked BLM ground unless given permission by one of the landowners.Written permission is best,

  6. #6

    Mar 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave wiseman View Post
    You have no right to cross private property to get to landlocked BLM ground unless given permission by one of the landowners.Written permission is best,
    That depends on the historical status of the road and trails. There are public rights along the older roads and trails.
    Just because the land ownership changes as you travel along, it doesn’t extinguish the rights. In fact most of the local public roads around here are not even owned in fee. They simply exist and have or are being used.
    Clay Diggins likes this.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

  7. #7

    Mar 2016
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    ”Don’t “ We The People “ own that land ? “

    Yup, it’s just that some of our land isn’t very useful to us. Private property rights is a wonderful thing. The good of the people doesn’t overrule individual rights unless they complete condemnation proceedings and provide fair compensation. Pretty unique thing we have going on.

    It’s also possible for people to buy private property that is landlocked with no ingress/egress easements.
    Last edited by IMAUDIGGER; Apr 02, 2020 at 08:56 AM.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

  8. #8
    us
    Jul 2004
    Angels Camp,Ca.
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    Almost all of the BLM ground in my county in California (Calaveras) is landlocked.Try and jump a gate or fence here and see what happens.The one state fire trail or road through the county was closed as public access many years ago...Ponderosa road.Local law enforcement will always take the land owners side,

  9. #9

    Mar 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave wiseman View Post
    Almost all of the BLM ground in my county in California (Calaveras) is landlocked.Try and jump a gate or fence here and see what happens.The one state fire trail or road through the county was closed as public access many years ago...Ponderosa road.Local law enforcement will always take the land owners side,
    There is no requirement that people research and assert their rights. Many times it might result in legal actions, which most people do not want to be involved in.

    There is some nice hunting ground around here (public) that only the adjacent land owner enjoys. They can even charge people for access if they wanted.
    dave wiseman likes this.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

  10. #10
    us
    May 2009
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    A blm parcel with a road to it is not landlocked.

    owners of private parcels blocking Public Land. Do not have to give you access.
    dave wiseman and Clay Diggins like this.

  11. #11
    Charter Member
    us
    Nov 2010
    The Great Southwest
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    There's been some good discussion and information in this thread. IMAUDIGGER really does seem to understand the issues involved. It's good to see that people still respect private lands and have become educated on their rights.

    The quote below though is a common misunderstanding:
    Quote Originally Posted by IMAUDIGGER View Post
    There is some nice hunting ground around here (public) that only the adjacent land owner enjoys. They can even charge people for access if they wanted.
    There are two different issues brought up here. Both are interrelated so I'll try to break these down.
    1. The private land owner has exclusive use of the landlocked public land.
    2. The landowner can charge to access the public lands.


    1. There is a federal law against using your exclusive access to the public lands when your ownership creates the blocking of access to public lands.
    Congress passed that law in 1885 just because of this situation. I've included the text to the part about exclusive use but the title links to the whole current law if you would like to learn more
    43 USC Ch. 25: UNLAWFUL INCLOSURES OR OCCUPANCY; OBSTRUCTING SETTLEMENT OR TRANSIT

    the assertion of a right to the exclusive use and occupancy of any part of the public lands of the United States in any State or any of the Territories of the United States, without claim, color of title, or asserted right as above specified as to inclosure, is likewise declared unlawful, and prohibited.
    They are serious about this and do prosecute. You could spend a year in the federal pen for claiming exclusive access.

    There is a famous case where a ranch in Colorado that bought every other section (checkerboard) from the railroad. They put a fence around their sections that joined at the corners so nobody to get to the public land sections. They expected that would give them the exclusive right to graze both their land and the public land - 40,000 acres total. They lost the case and had to allow access across the section corners.
    Camfield v. United States, 167 U.S. 518 (1897)

    I'm a little bit shy of sharing this case because it seems to read that private landowners can't fence out the public lands. Please don't think that's what myself, the court or the law are saying. Please don't armchair lawyer these links, there are there just so readers can investigate and educate themselves further on this important issue.

    2. The thing with the concept of charging to access the public lands should be obviously a no go if you think about it. It's really just a matter of shifting your point of view to understand that it's alright to charge a fee for a temporary easement to cross your private land but you can't charge a fee to access the public lands on the other side of your land. Seems like a petty point until you get slapped with a violation of 43 USC Ch. 25 linked above because of the way your sign was worded.


    Heavy Pans

  12. #12

    Mar 2016
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    Clay, thanks for the additional information.

    I suppose there is a fine line between violations and simple enjoyment of a particular situation, not created by the current owner.

    Clay, here is my simpleton understanding..please let me know if the law you mentioned applies.

    1.) The surrounding land owner has their property posted no trespassing. There is no law against them hunting on the landlocked public land. There is also no law requiring them to provide public access across their land for the purpose of getting to the public land. So for all practical purposes they are the only ones that get to enjoy hunting on that land. They don’t have legal exclusive rights.

    2.) While they cannot sell exclusive rights to access the landlocked public land, they could charge trespass fees for people to hunt on their land. They could not advertise that the fee includes access to land locked public lands. But for all practical purposes that would be what people are getting. This one could be kind of grey..

    I know there are many large land owners that have land locked public lands within their holdings and its common for them to charge trespass fees for hunting purposes.

    Are you thinking that these two situations may be in violation of federal law?
    Last edited by IMAUDIGGER; Apr 03, 2020 at 09:32 AM.
    Clay Diggins likes this.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

  13. #13
    if it flies, it dies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Diggins View Post
    There's been some good discussion and information in this thread. IMAUDIGGER really does seem to understand the issues involved. It's good to see that people still respect private lands and have become educated on their rights.

    The quote below though is a common misunderstanding:


    There are two different issues brought up here. Both are interrelated so I'll try to break these down.
    1. The private land owner has exclusive use of the landlocked public land.
    2. The landowner can charge to access the public lands.


    1. There is a federal law against using your exclusive access to the public lands when your ownership creates the blocking of access to public lands.
    Congress passed that law in 1885 just because of this situation. I've included the text to the part about exclusive use but the title links to the whole current law if you would like to learn more


    They are serious about this and do prosecute. You could spend a year in the federal pen for claiming exclusive access.

    There is a famous case where a ranch in Colorado that bought every other section (checkerboard) from the railroad. They put a fence around their sections that joined at the corners so nobody to get to the public land sections. They expected that would give them the exclusive right to graze both their land and the public land - 40,000 acres total. They lost the case and had to allow access across the section corners.
    Camfield v. United States, 167 U.S. 518 (1897)

    I'm a little bit shy of sharing this case because it seems to read that private landowners can't fence out the public lands. Please don't think that's what myself, the court or the law are saying. Please don't armchair lawyer these links, there are there just so readers can investigate and educate themselves further on this important issue.

    2. The thing with the concept of charging to access the public lands should be obviously a no go if you think about it. It's really just a matter of shifting your point of view to understand that it's alright to charge a fee for a temporary easement to cross your private land but you can't charge a fee to access the public lands on the other side of your land. Seems like a petty point until you get slapped with a violation of 43 USC Ch. 25 linked above because of the way your sign was worded.


    Heavy Pans
    I thought crossing at a corner is not a legal access. am I wrong?
    got the fever? dont scratch the itch.

  14. #14
    us
    Brian

    Mar 2014
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    I was told by a GS19 USFS Engineer that: if any public funds went into the road; the private property owner had to allow access to the public land that the road would passes through or to."

  15. #15

    Mar 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bejay View Post
    I was told by a GS19 USFS Engineer that: if any public funds went into the road; the private property owner had to allow access to the public land that the road would passes through or to."
    Unfortunately getting the USFS to dig up that information is difficult. They don’t seem to maintain a very good filing system of the older stuff. Additionally, many of their staff typically are on temporary assignment from a different area and they are not familiar with...well - anything.
    This Communication HEREBY Serves as OFFICIAL NOTICE That All Messages in This Thread Have Been REVIEWED. FURTHERMORE, All Messages of Positive Nature SHALL IRREVOCABLY Be Considered "LIKED" INSOFAR as Applicable to This Forum. FINALLY, All Discrimination is Strictly PROHIBITED.

 

 
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