conveyer belt in Montana mine.

[Mad Machinist]

Did anyone notice what the first sentence in 3809.2 said? This subpart applies to ALL operations authorized by mining laws on public lands.

 

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[kcm]

Just for the record, I'm not getting on one side or the other as I don't even understand this mess. The ONLY reason I posted last time was to try and help as MM said he could not post from his phone. Then Clay offers a link with the full reg in .pdf, which I must admit I haven't looked at yet.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I bought a few mines this year andhave a bunch of ore on the floor. i mean a bunch. Can you use an e;ectric conveyer to run that ore up and into a truck ? We.ve been told that basically a shovel and wheel barrow is all you can use. but dam we'ld be there for years doing that. thanks Bob. Mines are in Montana if that helps.

Yes, contrary to popular belief the BLM DOES have jurisdiction here.

The plan is to use conveyors to run the ore up into a truck. So lets take a look at this.

43 CFR 3809.5

(2) Casual use DOES NOT include the use of mechanized earth moving equipment, truck mounted drilling equipment, motorized vehicles in areas designated as closed to "off road" vehicles as defined in 43 CFR 8340.0-5 of this title. It does not include "occupancy" as defined in 43 CFR 3715.0-5 or operations in areas where the cumulative effects of activities result in more than negligible disturbance.

So we have mechanized earth moving equipment in the conveyors and the truck. So unless the conveyors and the truck can fit inside the portal as it is, they will be on the surface and the NOI or the POO is required. Also here is the "off road" vehicle aspect. Even if a road is visible, if it is not on a travel management plan for the area, IT IS CONSIDERED CLOSED TO VEHICLE TRAVEL and no longer exists officially, thus the need for a NOI or POO as that closed road will be considered as part of the surface disturbance.

More to follow. Need to refresh my memory on a few things.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Those are not the regulations - those are the eCFR designed for schoolchildren. The real CFR is not presented in a simplified question and answer format.

So why would you skip the title and part one which explains the purpose, objectives and authority for the regulations? Clearly the real CFR gives the authority to regulate surface disturbance - not mining.

Title:

Part one:






You can read the entire § 3809.0 CFR HERE (PDF). You will find no law or regulation where the BLM has the authority to manage, control or regulate underground mining or surface mining where there is no "significant surface disturbance". ALL of these regulations are about the BLM's duty to prevent "unnecessary or undue degradation" of the surface of the Public Lands. They have no legal right to regulate mining itself except where it will cause "unnecessary or undue degradation" of the surface resources.

You have to read the laws and the regulations in context to understand their meaning. Always start at the beginning or you will miss the most important part - the purpose, objectives and authority given in the law and regulations. The entirety of BLM 3809 regulations are about Surface Management just as the title says.

Heavy Pans

Clay,

For what it is worth, I do agree with you. But the problem comes down to "significant surface disturbance". Now you and I, without a doubt, have a very different definition of "significant surface disturbance" than the BLM does. While the BLM may not have the power to regulate mining directly, they can sure as hell make your life miserable under 43 CFR 3809.

43 CFR 3809.11 When do i have to submit a plan of operations?

(c) You must submit a plan of operations for any operations causing surface disturbance greater than casual use in the following special status areas where 3809.21 does not apply:

(6) Any lands or waters known to contain Federally PROPOSED or listed threatened or endangered species OR their PROPOSED or designated critical habitat, unless the BLM allows for other action under a formal land use plan or threatened or endangered species recovery plan,


Show me an area where this doesn't apply. The thing with PROPOSED habitat is that the species DOES NOT have to be there currently or historically. The habitat simply as to have conditions that could support the species. This is one of the many reasons I went back to school to finish my Environmental degree.

Like I said Clay, I agree with you, but this is what it is. There really is no way around it. I've spent many years and several hundred thousand dollars fighting the BLM over this. Both of us have found that it is much better to work together. They don't hassle me over semantics and I help them clean up abandoned mines and the toxic legacy left behind so we both win.

As a matter of fact, I am looking into restarting my company, much to their joy.

 

[rockbar]

Throwing this out there as the topic of land agency management authority and mining has been of interest to me for a few years.
I believe the BLM loosely defines "mechanized earth moving equipment" as backhoes, bulldozers, excavators, heavy haulers and the like?
A conveyer doesn't seem to fit in that category. Furthermore, earth isn't being moved here, rather, ore is being transported. What business does the BLM have in regards to you moving your ore? The small amount of surface that may be slightly impacted is the entrance to the portal, which is part of a mine which has already been impacted. In this case, what surface resources of the public land need to be protected?
It seems the BLM's default is to require a NOI or POO in any case where a miner uses machinery. In my view, that is beyond their management authority, but the BLM will likely impose where they can/allowed.

 

[kcm]

Just curious here, but what about a mine that leaks out what they would consider to be contaminated groundwater? While there would be no "physical" disturbance to the surface, any potentially harmful water could likely fall under this, no?

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Throwing this out there as the topic of land agency management authority and mining has been of interest to me for a few years.
I believe the BLM loosely defines "mechanized earth moving equipment" as backhoes, bulldozers, excavators, heavy haulers and the like?
A conveyer doesn't seem to fit in that category. Furthermore, earth isn't being moved here, rather, ore is being transported. What business does the BLM have in regards to you moving your ore? The small amount of surface that may be slightly impacted is the entrance to the portal, which is part of a mine which has already been impacted. In this case, what surface resources of the public land need to be protected?
It seems the BLM's default is to require a NOI or POO in any case where a miner uses machinery. In my view, that is beyond their management authority, but the BLM will likely impose where they can/allowed.

Ore, gangue, tailings, overburden, it doesn't matter; it is all considered earth. I don't see how, in the view of common expectations of a definition, how a mechanized conveyor that moves ore/earth/gangue from point A to point B is not considered earth moving equipment. You could maybe get away with it being in the adit, and being under 5 hp, but even that's going to be a tough sell to an environmentally friendly judge.

"Significant" can be defined however in the heck the BLM likes.

Here's the thing. If you fight the BLM in court, their attorneys are getting paid by you and our tax dollars. They don't run out of money.

Unless you've got a huge stake in the game, it's better to go along with and make friends as best you can.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Just curious here, but what about a mine that leaks out what they would consider to be contaminated groundwater? While there would be no "physical" disturbance to the surface, any potentially harmful water could likely fall under this, no?

When you file your Plan of Operation with them you have to address groundwater, erosion control, wells, impoundments, etc. If the water is contaminated and leaks out you've got a helluva **** storm coming your way. Unless you're the EPA and you do it yourself. Then it's okay.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Ore, gangue, tailings, overburden, it doesn't matter; it is all considered earth. I don't see how, in the view of common expectations of a definition, how a mechanized conveyor that moves ore/earth/gangue from point A to point B is not considered earth moving equipment. You could maybe get away with it being in the adit, and being under 5 hp, but even that's going to be a tough sell to an environmentally friendly judge.

"Significant" can be defined however in the heck the BLM likes.

Here's the thing. If you fight the BLM in court, their attorneys are getting paid by you and our tax dollars. They don't run out of money.

Unless you've got a huge stake in the game, it's better to go along with and make friends as best you can.

Just so everyone understands, we as miners, are not without recourse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Access_to_Justice_Act

 

[mpgken]

boblemon - back to your original question. I tried to send this to you in a message but it was too long.

I believe I know the mine you are talking about. If it is on Homestake you can forget about a conveyor. You can forget about driving up to the mine. I was there at the end of last fall. You can't get there except by foot or a two wheeled bike or motorcycle. The listing on GRE was several years old and neither GRE or the claim owner had been back to the mine in all that time. You can download a map showing all the roads on Homestake and it shows about 4 maybe 5 'roads' to the mine.

However, and keep this in mind, the Forest Service in all of Montana has not done any road maintenance anywhere in about 8 years. The runoff from melting snow and rains has washed out all the roads. The most direct roads are completely impassable unless you maybe have a tank, even then the tank might flip over. The roads were not 'built up' but were cut into the ground making them lower than the surrounding ground. A perfect water channel! Water runs off the ground into the road/ditch and down the mountain washing all the dirt in the road/ditch with it.

There is one road that I was barely able to use but only after working on it for two days by hand. All the work I did has been washed away already and the road is impassable. This spring when the snow melts and the rains come that one road will be so bad not even a tank could get through. The 'ranch' shown on the maps is and has been abandoned for many years so no one maintains the road.

If you spent a week rebuilding the road and were able to get to the mine opening you won't be getting any conveyor inside the mine without first making the opening much larger. I am not a big guy and I could barely get through the opening. The water in the mine is very deep in the spring and it is always right at the opening. From the outside of the opening the ground drops off almost like a cliff going inside. No steps or gradual slope.

Now think about the road again, to haul a conveyor there you will have to do a lot of work to the road on both sides of the mountain if you are going to haul a conveyor there. The road up to the opening is very steep and you'll need a 4wheel drive or hike up it. Again the runoff flows down that as well. There is no power up there so you will have to bring a generator to run your conveyor and any conveyor to move that much material is going to require a large generator which will never make it over the roads. The Forest Service and BLM will not allow you to rebuild the road with heavy Equip. unless you get permits and that will cost you big $$ and many months.

I have a friend that has been waiting to get permits to dig two test holes on a claim and he has been waiting for a year and a half.

The amount of electricity you will need to run a conveyor inside that dripping wet hole will be an electrocution hazard and I doubt the Forest Service and BLM will give you permission to do that. You won't be able to use the conveyor to dump the material into your truck bed. There is no way to make that happen without moving a lot of dirt and making the opening much larger.

Because of the tailings piled up at the entrance outside you will not be allowed to move it to drain the water or enlarge the opening without a permit which you most likely won't get by the end of summer. Moving that much material is a significant surface disturbance and the BLM will start citing all kinds of reasons they won't allow it because there are - guess what - minerals in that dirt! They'll claim they aren't sure if there is anything hazardous in that pile of dirt and it will have to be tested and you'll have to wait and pay fees until you are broke and don't care about the mine any more. They will also require a very hefty bond from you 'just in case you mess up and cause some of the hazardous material to be moved'. And another one for reclamation. That mine has not been reclaimed so you will be responsible for all reclamation. That would include the caved in holes all over the claim.

One last thing, if you paid more than $4K for that claim you were taken. The previous claim owner only paid $4k from GRE a few years ago. He turned around in less than a year and wanted to sell it for $68k! When no one was that stupid he kept lowering the price. The last I saw was $28k and that was still over priced for what is there and how much of a nightmare it will be to mine it.

Unless you are planning to spend the whole summer working on roads and opening up the entrance you'll never mine that tunnel effectively.

Homestake is always crowded with atv'ers and they can't even get to the mine. The only people that get that far in are on foot or by bike on a hiking trail.

Have you asked: why would someone buy a claim that was paper staked (you won't find any claim markers there) and then after going there for a few weeks turn right around and sell it? If the gold was as good as he claims and the access was as easy wouldn't it have sold much faster or wouldn't someone who actually mines have claimed it properly before? Any mine GRE sells is a pig in a poke. Just as any of the other paper claimers online and now advertising in the mining magazines. They are all selling scams.

Seems you are new to mining. Well here is a truth for you and you'll find I am right.

Miners - real miners - are not going to tell you how much gold they get or where the good gold is and they won't sell their claims unless they are forced to retire.

Fake miners will sell you anything and everything. They are all liars. The mining industry at your level is mostly liars preying on greenhorns who don't have a clue how to mine or what to look out for. If you did not 'test' any of the claims you bought you are a fool. A real miner will never buy something they are not allowed to test. Anyone can make any kind of claim about anything. But in the whole history of mining there have always been more con artists selling fools gold than real miners. Real miners have nothing to worry about and will allow a prospective buyer to test the claim/mine. A real miner will even help the buyer with the testing by helping dig, run material or explain what is needed to mine. They have nothing to lose by helping and everything to gain. A con man will never want anyone to test and they won't be willing to help.

If GRE or the former claim owner had done anything more than talk the claim might have actually sold that first year after the former claim owner put it up for sale. But they know the truth and were looking for someone who doesn't live here to be the fool that would take the bait. The former claim owner took the bait from GRE and when he figured out he was taken he joined GRE to resell it again.

Homestake is known for silver and copper. There is very little gold there. Very little.

As far as water goes, you won't get permits to use any water. Butte is on the other side of the pass and the water in Butte is poison, they have to pipe water in from over 150 miles away. The governments will not allow you to possibly contaminate any water source anywhere near Butte. And that goes for both federal and state agencies. You would need permits from both.

If I am wrong about the claim you bought none of this may apply. But I noticed that claim was no longer listed on GRE's website and figured you must have bought it. Hopefully you talked the crook down to no more than $1k but even then it isn't worth that much.

 

[kcm]

"The amount of electricity you will need to run a conveyor inside that dripping wet hole will be an electrocution hazard..."

As Tamrock has already said, one could use mucking machines instead. However, if a conveyor is what the OP has their mind set on, could always keep the power source outside and run hydraulic lines along the conveyor - power it hydraulically.

As for water, it's getting more and more necessary in many areas to work with recirculated water. So, why not make a large rain trapment system? Eventually, however, that water will still have to be treated, or ??

 

[mpgken]

"if a conveyor is what the OP has their mind set on, could always keep the power source outside and run hydraulic lines along the conveyor - power it hydraulically."

Sure, the generator would have to be outside and cables run into the tunnel. Hydraulic would be safer but again getting the conveyor inside is not going to be a quick easy thing. It won't be quick and easy to get any of the equipment to the mine in the first place. With hydraulic the FS and BLM would be watching like a hawk and if any fluid spills you can bet there will be a fine and they'll want to shut him down.

In addition, for him to use a conveyor it would have to be several that are used because the back of the tunnel is over a hundred feet and as they work their way toward the exit the conveyor would need to be shortened. Or if they started at the opening they would have to add lengths to it as they went further back. That would require more equipment. It isn't easy to get a conveyor that can run 100+ feet on hydraulics. And hydraulics always leak or the hoses always break spraying fluid everywhere. It can be done as you have suggested but I don't think in his time frame.

In his first post he was saying he'll only be here for a few weeks. He was sold a bill of goods on that mine since he won't be able to do what he is asking about in a few weeks. I was trying to help him realize there will be much more to removing that material than he was led to believe.

I was talking with a friend of mine here about that mine and as we discussed trying to get the gold and material out we realized it would cost more than we could get out and it would take too long to get the needed permits.

As for the water. The mine has water already in it. The first 30 feet or more is always flooded and in the spring it is very deep. Recirculating that water would be an option but the idea would only work if the water was pumped outside before using it and then you have to deal with permits just in case it has hazardous chemicals in it. Recirculating it inside the tunnel won't help because the muck would build up in front of the only entrance/exit. Making a 'pond' outside would be difficult and expensive because the mountain side drops off almost like a cliff within 10 feet of the opening and that is only because of the tailings built up there. A safe place for a pond would be at the bottom of the mountain but then the material would have to be hauled down and processed there making a bigger bond requirement for reclamation and in case of disaster. Again the area is extremely sensitive to any kind of pollution of the waters because of the mining that was done in Butte.

I am not saying any of this can't be done but at what cost and how long will it take to get the permits. The con artists selling these claims make everything sound so simple and easy. If it was as they claim why hadn't anyone else already done it?

In addition, if the water was recirculated in the tunnel the very fine material would plug the places where the water is currently draining and the water would build up and flood the whole tunnel making it impossible to mine it at all.

I am not trying to rain on his parade but trying to help him take a realistic look at what he got himself in for. Rather than have him come in the summer and leave pissed, if he knows the truth about the mine and the problems he may be able to figure something out to make it work. But coming here with just the lies GRE and the former claim owner told he'll be mad when he gets here and learns the truth. GRE and the former claim owner give real miners a bad name. We need to help people like him understand the truth of the situation and that will help him realize what he is really up against.

One would think that having people respond who have knowledge of the mine and are willing to help that he would at the very least respond back. He was either chased off by the stupid responses at first or from all the off topic discussion about the BLM.

If he doesn't pay attention to these posts he'll be extremely disappointed when he gets here this summer! And if he doesn't respond and at the very least thank everyone for posting he won't get much help in the future when he really needs it.

 

[kcm]

Hey Ken. Wow, not sure what part of the last post is quoted and what is the new post. Quite confusing.

As for hydraulics, I've seen hydraulic systems that would run for years without so much as a single drop of oil being lost. As for power, if you size your system large enough, it will easily handle the task at hand. It isn't necessary to run hoses the entire length, as the conveyor is non-flexible, so a person could run rigid piping where possible. And finally, if you're worried about oil spillage, then use the original form of hydraulic fluid - water. You say there's water already in the mine - great!

For every problem there is a solution. Sometimes there is not a "feasible" solution. But you have to be able and willing to look at all potential solutions, then choose the best route.

 

[mpgken]

kcm. I am not here to argue but to point out the issues with the mine on Homestake. I have first hand knowledge of the mine. Have you been there? Do you even know the claim we are talking about?

My intention was to educate him based on what he posted. His time frame and his ideas of what he wanted to do. How long do you think it would take to set up a hydraulic conveyor? One that can change length as he works the tunnel? The best option would be a conveyor that can be made longer as he works. Or do you honestly think that a conveyor taking up about half the floor space or more going the whole length of the tunnel is the way to go even though he'll have to dig under the supports and the moving belt as he works to remove the paydirt on the floor? Also, since the conveyor would close off the opening how would he get in and out of the tunnel? What kind of conveyor is there that can be easily moved out of the way every time he needs and quickly in case of emergency?

Just so you know what we are talking about, here is a link to the claim listing.

Historic Gold Flint Gold Mine. A 20 acre lode Mining Claim for Sale Presented by Gold Rush Expeditions.

Looks like he bought it for $28k. He is gonna be pissed when he can't get the gold out in a few weeks, and what he can get out won't pay for the claim. I doubt he'll even get an ounce out. That 'cabin' is at the bottom of the valley. There is another on the side of the mountain that is in much better shape with a big sign saying to keep out! I have pictures I took this fall when I was up there. Also looks like the bears like that better built cabin.

Take a close look at the pictures of the hole. The weeds and bushes around that hole are not very big and that hole to get in the mine is very small. The green weed/bush on the side is about the size of a persons head. If you look closely you'll see a part of a garden hose on the ground in front. That should give you some perspective. Once you read the description and look closely at the pictures you'll understand better what I am talking about. You can still search and find the listing when the previous claim owner bought it and paid only $4k. It took him about 3 years but he did make a nice profit. $8k a year to hold onto the claims. A sucker is born every minute but it takes time for them to find the seller.

Also, look close at the pic of the gold in the pan. That gold is tiny maybe minus 50 or 100 mesh and there really isn't much of it. That pic is a close up and is blown up to make it look like a lot. That flypoop gold wasn't just a shovel full of dirt from the floor it was a whole lot more. It was classified material. All that is shown in the pan is not gold. Much of it is silver. Homestake is not a gold producer. It is a copper and silver producer and some other minerals such as Smoky Quartz.

Anyway, hope you are able to help him. Obviously what I know is wrong. Not going to waste anymore time on this thread as it is obvious that my knowledge of the claim, mine and access is of no value. Doesn't pay to help anyone on this whole site.

Too bad I won't be here during the summer. I would love to see the look on his face when he gets to Homestake and finds out the truth. It would make a great reality show episode!

 

[kcm]

Has it been determined that it IS "The Homestake Mine" that the OP was referring to?? Hmm...let's see:
Post #1 -

I bought a few mines this year andhave a bunch of ore on the floor. i mean a bunch. Can you use an e;ectric conveyer to run that ore up and into a truck ? We.ve been told that basically a shovel and wheel barrow is all you can use. but dam we'ld be there for years doing that. thanks Bob. Mines are in Montana if that helps.

Post #9 -

this BLM land and just bought my 4 th mine. Should be a fun summer.

And that's it. Nope, no mention of what mine. They simply asked if an electric conveyor could be used to run ore up and into a truck. Doesn't even mention it having to be a long conveyor.

No, I have not been there - most likely never will. Also, there is no mention in his posts of GRE. Therefore, I respectfully have to ask that you tone things down a bit.

An awful lot more has been read into this thread than what actually was. As for my posts, ...well, lemme put it this way - I'm in the middle of a snow plow rebuild in the middle of a January winter in northern Minnesota, with the great outdoors being my workshop. It also happens to be one of the windiest parts of the country. Also, am planning on building a new shop this Spring. Also working on plans for some other equipment. Trying to keep the old body from falling apart in the process. Also gotta please the wife - that's job #1!! And all this after my Mom passed away late last year, whereas we had to make an 1,100-mile trip down south for a month and TRY to get everything settled there! So Ken, please excuse me if my thoughts are a bit ALL OVER THE PLACE.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

kcm. I am not here to argue but to point out the issues with the mine on Homestake. I have first hand knowledge of the mine. Have you been there? Do you even know the claim we are talking about?

My intention was to educate him based on what he posted. His time frame and his ideas of what he wanted to do. How long do you think it would take to set up a hydraulic conveyor? One that can change length as he works the tunnel? The best option would be a conveyor that can be made longer as he works. Or do you honestly think that a conveyor taking up about half the floor space or more going the whole length of the tunnel is the way to go even though he'll have to dig under the supports and the moving belt as he works to remove the paydirt on the floor? Also, since the conveyor would close off the opening how would he get in and out of the tunnel? What kind of conveyor is there that can be easily moved out of the way every time he needs and quickly in case of emergency?

Just so you know what we are talking about, here is a link to the claim listing.

Historic Gold Flint Gold Mine. A 20 acre lode Mining Claim for Sale Presented by Gold Rush Expeditions.

Looks like he bought it for $28k. He is gonna be pissed when he can't get the gold out in a few weeks, and what he can get out won't pay for the claim. I doubt he'll even get an ounce out. That 'cabin' is at the bottom of the valley. There is another on the side of the mountain that is in much better shape with a big sign saying to keep out! I have pictures I took this fall when I was up there. Also looks like the bears like that better built cabin.

Take a close look at the pictures of the hole. The weeds and bushes around that hole are not very big and that hole to get in the mine is very small. The green weed/bush on the side is about the size of a persons head. If you look closely you'll see a part of a garden hose on the ground in front. That should give you some perspective. Once you read the description and look closely at the pictures you'll understand better what I am talking about. You can still search and find the listing when the previous claim owner bought it and paid only $4k. It took him about 3 years but he did make a nice profit. $8k a year to hold onto the claims. A sucker is born every minute but it takes time for them to find the seller.

Also, look close at the pic of the gold in the pan. That gold is tiny maybe minus 50 or 100 mesh and there really isn't much of it. That pic is a close up and is blown up to make it look like a lot. That flypoop gold wasn't just a shovel full of dirt from the floor it was a whole lot more. It was classified material. All that is shown in the pan is not gold. Much of it is silver. Homestake is not a gold producer. It is a copper and silver producer and some other minerals such as Smoky Quartz.

Anyway, hope you are able to help him. Obviously what I know is wrong. Not going to waste anymore time on this thread as it is obvious that my knowledge of the claim, mine and access is of no value. Doesn't pay to help anyone on this whole site.

Too bad I won't be here during the summer. I would love to see the look on his face when he gets to Homestake and finds out the truth. It would make a great reality show episode!

Looking at it, that is one tight squeeze going into that portal.

 

[kcm]

Just looked at the link. That's not a mine entrance; it's a rat entrance. Which is one other reason I doubt that the OP was referring to this particular mine. He asked about using a conveyor to load ore into a truck. ...He'd have to get it out of the mine first! So unless the OP says otherwise, I have to assume that the mine in question is NOT the Homestake.

 

[Mad Machinist]

"if a conveyor is what the OP has their mind set on, could always keep the power source outside and run hydraulic lines along the conveyor - power it hydraulically."

Sure, the generator would have to be outside and cables run into the tunnel. Hydraulic would be safer but again getting the conveyor inside is not going to be a quick easy thing. It won't be quick and easy to get any of the equipment to the mine in the first place. With hydraulic the FS and BLM would be watching like a hawk and if any fluid spills you can bet there will be a fine and they'll want to shut him down.

In addition, for him to use a conveyor it would have to be several that are used because the back of the tunnel is over a hundred feet and as they work their way toward the exit the conveyor would need to be shortened. Or if they started at the opening they would have to add lengths to it as they went further back. That would require more equipment. It isn't easy to get a conveyor that can run 100+ feet on hydraulics. And hydraulics always leak or the hoses always break spraying fluid everywhere. It can be done as you have suggested but I don't think in his time frame.

In his first post he was saying he'll only be here for a few weeks. He was sold a bill of goods on that mine since he won't be able to do what he is asking about in a few weeks. I was trying to help him realize there will be much more to removing that material than he was led to believe.

I was talking with a friend of mine here about that mine and as we discussed trying to get the gold and material out we realized it would cost more than we could get out and it would take too long to get the needed permits.

As for the water. The mine has water already in it. The first 30 feet or more is always flooded and in the spring it is very deep. Recirculating that water would be an option but the idea would only work if the water was pumped outside before using it and then you have to deal with permits just in case it has hazardous chemicals in it. Recirculating it inside the tunnel won't help because the muck would build up in front of the only entrance/exit. Making a 'pond' outside would be difficult and expensive because the mountain side drops off almost like a cliff within 10 feet of the opening and that is only because of the tailings built up there. A safe place for a pond would be at the bottom of the mountain but then the material would have to be hauled down and processed there making a bigger bond requirement for reclamation and in case of disaster. Again the area is extremely sensitive to any kind of pollution of the waters because of the mining that was done in Butte.

I am not saying any of this can't be done but at what cost and how long will it take to get the permits. The con artists selling these claims make everything sound so simple and easy. If it was as they claim why hadn't anyone else already done it?

In addition, if the water was recirculated in the tunnel the very fine material would plug the places where the water is currently draining and the water would build up and flood the whole tunnel making it impossible to mine it at all.

I am not trying to rain on his parade but trying to help him take a realistic look at what he got himself in for. Rather than have him come in the summer and leave pissed, if he knows the truth about the mine and the problems he may be able to figure something out to make it work. But coming here with just the lies GRE and the former claim owner told he'll be mad when he gets here and learns the truth. GRE and the former claim owner give real miners a bad name. We need to help people like him understand the truth of the situation and that will help him realize what he is really up against.

One would think that having people respond who have knowledge of the mine and are willing to help that he would at the very least respond back. He was either chased off by the stupid responses at first or from all the off topic discussion about the BLM.

If he doesn't pay attention to these posts he'll be extremely disappointed when he gets here this summer! And if he doesn't respond and at the very least thank everyone for posting he won't get much help in the future when he really needs it.

Cory at GRE has been told multiple times to stay the hell out of Arizona. He is nothing but a snake oil salesman and a hack. He is going to run into some of us here someday and it isn't going to be "pretty".

 

[Mad Machinist]

boblemon - back to your original question. I tried to send this to you in a message but it was too long.

I believe I know the mine you are talking about. If it is on Homestake you can forget about a conveyor. You can forget about driving up to the mine. I was there at the end of last fall. You can't get there except by foot or a two wheeled bike or motorcycle. The listing on GRE was several years old and neither GRE or the claim owner had been back to the mine in all that time. You can download a map showing all the roads on Homestake and it shows about 4 maybe 5 'roads' to the mine.

However, and keep this in mind, the Forest Service in all of Montana has not done any road maintenance anywhere in about 8 years. The runoff from melting snow and rains has washed out all the roads. The most direct roads are completely impassable unless you maybe have a tank, even then the tank might flip over. The roads were not 'built up' but were cut into the ground making them lower than the surrounding ground. A perfect water channel! Water runs off the ground into the road/ditch and down the mountain washing all the dirt in the road/ditch with it.

There is one road that I was barely able to use but only after working on it for two days by hand. All the work I did has been washed away already and the road is impassable. This spring when the snow melts and the rains come that one road will be so bad not even a tank could get through. The 'ranch' shown on the maps is and has been abandoned for many years so no one maintains the road.

If you spent a week rebuilding the road and were able to get to the mine opening you won't be getting any conveyor inside the mine without first making the opening much larger. I am not a big guy and I could barely get through the opening. The water in the mine is very deep in the spring and it is always right at the opening. From the outside of the opening the ground drops off almost like a cliff going inside. No steps or gradual slope.

Now think about the road again, to haul a conveyor there you will have to do a lot of work to the road on both sides of the mountain if you are going to haul a conveyor there. The road up to the opening is very steep and you'll need a 4wheel drive or hike up it. Again the runoff flows down that as well. There is no power up there so you will have to bring a generator to run your conveyor and any conveyor to move that much material is going to require a large generator which will never make it over the roads. The Forest Service and BLM will not allow you to rebuild the road with heavy Equip. unless you get permits and that will cost you big $$ and many months.

I have a friend that has been waiting to get permits to dig two test holes on a claim and he has been waiting for a year and a half.

The amount of electricity you will need to run a conveyor inside that dripping wet hole will be an electrocution hazard and I doubt the Forest Service and BLM will give you permission to do that. You won't be able to use the conveyor to dump the material into your truck bed. There is no way to make that happen without moving a lot of dirt and making the opening much larger.

Because of the tailings piled up at the entrance outside you will not be allowed to move it to drain the water or enlarge the opening without a permit which you most likely won't get by the end of summer. Moving that much material is a significant surface disturbance and the BLM will start citing all kinds of reasons they won't allow it because there are - guess what - minerals in that dirt! They'll claim they aren't sure if there is anything hazardous in that pile of dirt and it will have to be tested and you'll have to wait and pay fees until you are broke and don't care about the mine any more. They will also require a very hefty bond from you 'just in case you mess up and cause some of the hazardous material to be moved'. And another one for reclamation. That mine has not been reclaimed so you will be responsible for all reclamation. That would include the caved in holes all over the claim.

One last thing, if you paid more than $4K for that claim you were taken. The previous claim owner only paid $4k from GRE a few years ago. He turned around in less than a year and wanted to sell it for $68k! When no one was that stupid he kept lowering the price. The last I saw was $28k and that was still over priced for what is there and how much of a nightmare it will be to mine it.

Unless you are planning to spend the whole summer working on roads and opening up the entrance you'll never mine that tunnel effectively.

Homestake is always crowded with atv'ers and they can't even get to the mine. The only people that get that far in are on foot or by bike on a hiking trail.

Have you asked: why would someone buy a claim that was paper staked (you won't find any claim markers there) and then after going there for a few weeks turn right around and sell it? If the gold was as good as he claims and the access was as easy wouldn't it have sold much faster or wouldn't someone who actually mines have claimed it properly before? Any mine GRE sells is a pig in a poke. Just as any of the other paper claimers online and now advertising in the mining magazines. They are all selling scams.

Seems you are new to mining. Well here is a truth for you and you'll find I am right.

Miners - real miners - are not going to tell you how much gold they get or where the good gold is and they won't sell their claims unless they are forced to retire.

Fake miners will sell you anything and everything. They are all liars. The mining industry at your level is mostly liars preying on greenhorns who don't have a clue how to mine or what to look out for. If you did not 'test' any of the claims you bought you are a fool. A real miner will never buy something they are not allowed to test. Anyone can make any kind of claim about anything. But in the whole history of mining there have always been more con artists selling fools gold than real miners. Real miners have nothing to worry about and will allow a prospective buyer to test the claim/mine. A real miner will even help the buyer with the testing by helping dig, run material or explain what is needed to mine. They have nothing to lose by helping and everything to gain. A con man will never want anyone to test and they won't be willing to help.

If GRE or the former claim owner had done anything more than talk the claim might have actually sold that first year after the former claim owner put it up for sale. But they know the truth and were looking for someone who doesn't live here to be the fool that would take the bait. The former claim owner took the bait from GRE and when he figured out he was taken he joined GRE to resell it again.

Homestake is known for silver and copper. There is very little gold there. Very little.

As far as water goes, you won't get permits to use any water. Butte is on the other side of the pass and the water in Butte is poison, they have to pipe water in from over 150 miles away. The governments will not allow you to possibly contaminate any water source anywhere near Butte. And that goes for both federal and state agencies. You would need permits from both.

If I am wrong about the claim you bought none of this may apply. But I noticed that claim was no longer listed on GRE's website and figured you must have bought it. Hopefully you talked the crook down to no more than $1k but even then it isn't worth that much.

The first part of this is exactly what I was getting at as far as the BLM. being able to "regulate" mining. Thank you for being far more articulate than I am. If you have no access, then you are not mining.

 

[boblemon]

no i don't know of that claim at all. mines in sheridan