Getting the gangue out of the mine...Ideas?

[SaltwaterServr]

Now that I've found the mine I'm going to work on, the academic questions have become practical application questions. The one I'm working through right now is getting the rehab started and the waste rock out of the mine.

I've got a few ideas swirling around my head.

The adit is pretty narrow as you might have seen in the video.

I've considered building a front-dump ore car using either v-groove swivel casters or flanged swivel casters.

The flanged I can run on 2" pipe.



The swivel v-groove I can run on 2x2x1/4" angle iron.





The v-groove is better choice because angle iron is cheaper than pipe. It's also easier to weld a piece of flat bar across the toes of the angle to make a mounting to bolt down to the cross-ties like this:



The saving grace about pipe is that it's a lot easier to bend it to make it around corners, but I only have one corner in the adit so far.

I can also buy an old riding lawnmower to pull the car through the mine. I already have the ventilation issue worked out, so no worries about that. With the deep V riding on the angle, I should also be able to back the empty car down the adit. Also, I can decouple the car outside from the mover and push it back in. The two sets of alcoves should give me room to turn the mower to pull the car back out again when full. Additionally, I can completely board over the winze and turn it around there.

The third and cheaper option is a two-wheeled wheelbarrow. Good to start with, easy to dump, cheap. Problem is pushing it across the existing cross ties and waste rock on the adit sill.

Fourth option, a pre-built cart like this that can haul up to a ton and a half of rock:

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-2548/Carts-Dollies/Wagon-Cart-30-x-60

I can get some 1/8" steel sheet and build sides for it to make it a box. Also I can modify the frame a bit and make it into a side dump car. I can use chain around the handle to tie it to the lawn mower to pull it out or make a mounting bracket for the mower. It will have to be pushed back into the mine by hand since there won't be any guides for the wheels.

I could conceivably take off the pneumatic tires and put v-casters on it to be able to run it back and forth with the lawn mower. The big plus though is being able to use the wagon cart without the need to install any kind of guide track on the sill.

If folks have any other ideas, let me know.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[kcm]

I have LOTS of ideas!! ...And sometimes one is actually a good one!

There's a lot of info you've left out of your initial post - things like:
1) how smooth and consistent is the mine floor? (Wheels on the floor will be chewed up quickly by small rocks, sand, other debris)
2) are there elevation changes inside the mine?
3) how much weight do you need to haul with each ore car? (and how many ore cars)
4) what's the ceiling height?
5) what's the narrowest width in the mine tunnel?
6) are you trying to consider if the vein decides to plunge downward (or upward)?
7) how do you wish to power your ore cars? (2-part-question) meaning, what power source would you use (electric, pneumatic, hydraulic, petrol, mule, etc) and what means of transferring that power (winch and cable, electric or hydraulic or pneumatic motor, powered transaxles from riding mower, etc)

 

[SaltwaterServr]

1. Small rubble everywhere, part of the rehab process.
2. Aside from the winze, the grade of the sill isn't noticeable while walking it.
3. It will depend on what we're doing, could be hauling out a few hundred pounds of slab that we scaled off, or a full load of waste rock from a blast. I'll also have to haul out the backfill in the alcoves and the adit backfill. On top of that, there will be hauling equipment back into the mine as necessary for bracing stopes, running electricity, etc.
4. 6'-7' I would guess, but the back will be raised and stoped if the assays come back good.
5. Unknown.
6. The vein outcrops at least 100' above the adit, so raises will be necessary. I won't know about winzes until the rehab work is moving along and I've done sampling.
7. Right now I'm leaning towards using a riding mower to pull the cars. It's easy, cheap, and I can work on those engines if they break down.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I've thought about this a lot. And if it was me, I would run the v groove swivel wheels on 2" pipe. An anchor plate can be made from a piece of angle. Make the anchor plate about 4 or 5" wide and taper the ends up at a 45 degree angle. Use a bimetallic hole saw to make a cutout for the pipe to sit in and weld it to the pipe. Ideally the 45 degree ends should be right around halfway up the pipe when installed so they will clear the v groove wheels when they roll by.

Clear as mud? If not I can draw a picture and put it up.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I've thought about this a lot. And if it was me, I would run the v groove swivel wheels on 2" pipe. An anchor plate can be made from a piece of angle. Make the anchor plate about 4 or 5" wide and taper the ends up at a 45 degree angle. Use a bimetallic hole saw to make a cutout for the pipe to sit in and weld it to the pipe. Ideally the 45 degree ends should be right around halfway up the pipe when installed so they will clear the v groove wheels when they roll by.

Clear as mud? If not I can draw a picture and put it up.

If you could draw me a picture, I'd appreciate it for sure.

 

[Mad Machinist]

If you could draw me a picture, I'd appreciate it for sure.

I'll have it up for you tomorrow, brother.

Edit: Do you have a plasma cutter?

 

[kcm]

I'm with MM on the use of engines underground - not a good idea in most cases. Either way, that leaves you with three options:
1) have a power source on each ore cart (such as batteries - see below)
2) have power source outside the mine (such as a winch that pulls the cars out
3) run power from the outside into the mine (such as electrical wire or hydraulic lines, etc)

For this use, I would definitely go with batteries. Rather than investing a lot of money in a track system, I would be more inclined to make a sort of steering system - sort of like a single track, but could be out of much lighter-duty material. Then have a battery-assist steering on each cart (not as difficult as it sounds) so that as the switches come in contact with the guide bar (single track), the cart automatically adjusts course accordingly. Batteries could also be used to power the carts if you wanted, as you can get tremendous torque from the right kinds of motors - although they can be pretty expensive.

A lawn mower transaxle usually has a weight capacity of 500-600 lbs. You could build a system where weight is not an issue, but there's still a problem with how much torque these can provide. Somewhere was mentioned about using a zero-turn mower system. Most of those are individual left-&-right belt-driven hydraulic motors. In a mower application, there's no need for a differential. You can also get buy without a differential in other ways, such as braking one side to initiate a turn, or by using hydraulic motors and a flow divider.

I, personally, would use batteries on each cart powering electric drive motors. The switches from the guide rail would simply provide a brief interruption of power from the turning side of the cart, or where the switch would activate a brake on one side.

Reason I asked about the walls is, if your walls are not overly rough, you could mount your switches to the sides of the ore cart and forego the center steering rail altogether. That would mean you could get your ore out without any rails. Even if rough, jagged walls, you could still probably get by turning the sides of your cart into the steering switches, with steel plate being the only thing that hits against the rock wall.

...Sure hope this is making sense. Have been so danged dizzy off and on these past few days - very hard to keep concentration going!

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I'll have it up for you tomorrow, brother.

Edit: Do you have a plasma cutter?

I don't have a plasma cutter.

 

[barrelroll]

I've never actually seen a slusher in use, would i work in your mine? Also what about a winch outside with a roller on the wall for the cable to make the turn?

How narrow is your adit? Could you rent something like Toro Dingo and get it done in a weekend? Depending on the model some are 34" wide

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I've never actually seen a slusher in use, would i work in your mine? Also what about a winch outside with a roller on the wall for the cable to make the turn?

How narrow is your adit? Could you rent something like Toro Dingo and get it done in a weekend? Depending on the model some are 34" wide

That Dingo is a pretty dang neat machine. That critter could come in dang handy. Only problem is, once I get it down the hill to the adit, I'll need a helicopter to get it back out again.

The winch system could possibly work. The generator is outside, so supplying the power to it is no problem. Once I pick up my Sierra Blaster, I can knock that corner in the hanging wall back a few feet and make that corner into a smoother transition.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I'm with MM on the use of engines underground - not a good idea in most cases. Either way, that leaves you with three options:
1) have a power source on each ore cart (such as batteries - see below)
2) have power source outside the mine (such as a winch that pulls the cars out
3) run power from the outside into the mine (such as electrical wire or hydraulic lines, etc)

For this use, I would definitely go with batteries. Rather than investing a lot of money in a track system, I would be more inclined to make a sort of steering system - sort of like a single track, but could be out of much lighter-duty material. Then have a battery-assist steering on each cart (not as difficult as it sounds) so that as the switches come in contact with the guide bar (single track), the cart automatically adjusts course accordingly. Batteries could also be used to power the carts if you wanted, as you can get tremendous torque from the right kinds of motors - although they can be pretty expensive.

A lawn mower transaxle usually has a weight capacity of 500-600 lbs. You could build a system where weight is not an issue, but there's still a problem with how much torque these can provide. Somewhere was mentioned about using a zero-turn mower system. Most of those are individual left-&-right belt-driven hydraulic motors. In a mower application, there's no need for a differential. You can also get buy without a differential in other ways, such as braking one side to initiate a turn, or by using hydraulic motors and a flow divider.

I, personally, would use batteries on each cart powering electric drive motors. The switches from the guide rail would simply provide a brief interruption of power from the turning side of the cart, or where the switch would activate a brake on one side.

Reason I asked about the walls is, if your walls are not overly rough, you could mount your switches to the sides of the ore cart and forego the center steering rail altogether. That would mean you could get your ore out without any rails. Even if rough, jagged walls, you could still probably get by turning the sides of your cart into the steering switches, with steel plate being the only thing that hits against the rock wall.

...Sure hope this is making sense. Have been so danged dizzy off and on these past few days - very hard to keep concentration going!

The switches/brakes/power interruption system seems overly complex to me at this point unless you can point me to an off the shelf system I can put together in an afternoon.

The winch system could possibly work.

 

[jcazgoldchaser]

I was thinking about your cart idea when the image of an aircraft tow tractor popped into my head. They also make battery powered trailer tow rigs of similar intent.

Proud Canadian



1/8" seems thin, but easily cut with a metal cutting circular saw. Of course the supplier should be able to cut sheet to size.

There's an industrial metal supply in tucson if that's close to you
https://www.industrialmetalsupply.com/Locations/Tucson-Metal

Winch idea was my first thought as well but you'd have to build a big spool. Not sure how the old timers curved the rails other than heat or a roller. Either of which seem like they'd take time to get good at.

They use the Vrollers for fence gates here, but curving the angle in that plane seems like it would be a pain in the az. Solid or round tubing would be simpler and you could use one of these

 

[kcm]

The switches/brakes/power interruption system seems overly complex to me at this point unless you can point me to an off the shelf system I can put together in an afternoon.

The winch system could possibly work.

I'll think about this and get back to you. My mind is really fuzzy today so my thoughts are not working well.

...Have spent about 1/2 hour typing things up. Then I read it back and I realize it won't work. ARG! I'm tired of being sick!! ...And we're finally having some days ABOVE freezing as well! Just had an antique tractor delivered on Friday and haven't even been outside to "play" with it yet!!

 

[Mad Machinist]

If you could draw me a picture, I'd appreciate it for sure.

Here ya go.

Cut the radius with a 2 3/8" hole bimetal hole saw to march the od of the 2 inch pipe. Set the center of the cutouts to the width of type tract you want. Weld the pipe to the 2" angle. Drill holes in the bottom leg of the angle to lag to a 4x4.

The angle at the ends of the track should be turned so they can be bolted together for additional lengths to be added. Depending on the center to center distance between the cross ties, this should be a rather strong but still lightweight system that is both easily built and assembled by one or two people if the lengths are kept reasonable. I'm thinking if it is setup right the "track assemblies" could easily be moved around on top of the ore carts.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I'm with MM on the use of engines underground - not a good idea in most cases. Either way, that leaves you with three options:
1) have a power source on each ore cart (such as batteries - see below)
2) have power source outside the mine (such as a winch that pulls the cars out
3) run power from the outside into the mine (such as electrical wire or hydraulic lines, etc)

For this use, I would definitely go with batteries. Rather than investing a lot of money in a track system, I would be more inclined to make a sort of steering system - sort of like a single track, but could be out of much lighter-duty material. Then have a battery-assist steering on each cart (not as difficult as it sounds) so that as the switches come in contact with the guide bar (single track), the cart automatically adjusts course accordingly. Batteries could also be used to power the carts if you wanted, as you can get tremendous torque from the right kinds of motors - although they can be pretty expensive.

A lawn mower transaxle usually has a weight capacity of 500-600 lbs. You could build a system where weight is not an issue, but there's still a problem with how much torque these can provide. Somewhere was mentioned about using a zero-turn mower system. Most of those are individual left-&-right belt-driven hydraulic motors. In a mower application, there's no need for a differential. You can also get buy without a differential in other ways, such as braking one side to initiate a turn, or by using hydraulic motors and a flow divider.

I, personally, would use batteries on each cart powering electric drive motors. The switches from the guide rail would simply provide a brief interruption of power from the turning side of the cart, or where the switch would activate a brake on one side.

Reason I asked about the walls is, if your walls are not overly rough, you could mount your switches to the sides of the ore cart and forego the center steering rail altogether. That would mean you could get your ore out without any rails. Even if rough, jagged walls, you could still probably get by turning the sides of your cart into the steering switches, with steel plate being the only thing that hits against the rock wall.

...Sure hope this is making sense. Have been so danged dizzy off and on these past few days - very hard to keep concentration going!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VaWrE3-MhXM

Put one of these on the track system we are talking about to use as a tugger.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VaWrE3-MhXM

Put one of these on the track system we are talking about to use as a tugger.

I think we have a winner there. Runner up goes to jcaz with his truck winch tugger.

You think this motor would do the job for the mower conversion?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Manta-II-10...id=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=172260368606

This one is used in another conversion. Probably don't need 10hp continuous. Then again, I could slap on a hydraulic system and make it a mucker while I was at it.

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/emc-r-ls-me1004-pmdc-motor-24-48v-10-75-hp-cont-21-hp-pk.html

Here ya go.

Cut the radius with a 2 3/8" hole bimetal hole saw to march the od of the 2 inch pipe. Set the center of the cutouts to the width of type tract you want. Weld the pipe to the 2" angle. Drill holes in the bottom leg of the angle to lag to a 4x4.

The angle at the ends of the track should be turned so they can be bolted together for additional lengths to be added. Depending on the center to center distance between the cross ties, this should be a rather strong but still lightweight system that is both easily built and assembled by one or two people if the lengths are kept reasonable. I'm thinking if it is setup right the "track assemblies" could easily be moved around on top of the ore carts.

Fever broke this morning around 4 am. For some reason I had thought you were cutting the holes into the heel of the angle and then just using the angle as the cross tie on the sill. This makes a lot more sense, sans inner ear infection.

Cut the pipe down to 10' sections, and this could be fabricated using an oxy-acetylene rig on site as I'll have my welder there as well. A few of those alcoves right up in front of the adit are going to make good little storage areas once I put some steel doors on them. Of course, the mine will have a beefy front gate too.

 

[Mad Machinist]

I think we have a winner there. Runner up goes to jcaz with his truck winch tugger.

You think this motor would do the job for the mower conversion?

Manta II 10 hp DC electric motor 12 24 48 Etek / Motenergy Permanent Magnet USED | eBay

This one is used in another conversion. Probably don't need 10hp continuous. Then again, I could slap on a hydraulic system and make it a mucker while I was at it.

Motenergy ME1004 PMDC Motor, 24-48V, 10.75 hp cont, 21 hp pk



Fever broke this morning around 4 am. For some reason I had thought you were cutting the holes into the heel of the angle and then just using the angle as the cross tie on the sill. This makes a lot more sense, sans inner ear infection.

Cut the pipe down to 10' sections, and this could be fabricated using an oxy-acetylene rig on site as I'll have my welder there as well. A few of those alcoves right up in front of the adit are going to make good little storage areas once I put some steel doors on them. Of course, the mine will have a beefy front gate too.

Either of those motors would work.

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-bank-tutorial.html. This link explained it better than I can.

 

[Goodyguy]

The third and cheaper option is a two-wheeled wheelbarrow. Good to start with, easy to dump, cheap. Problem is pushing it across the existing cross ties and waste rock on the adit sill.

Have you seen any visible gold? Do you have milling equipment? Are the deposits locked up in sulfides?
I wouldn't put much dough or effort into cleanup until I had an assay.

It's easy to put the cart in front of the horse when the fever is running high..... just sayin'
Soon as you know there are proven values to exploit first get the adit secured then work on clean up.

As far as getting started on cleanup I like your third option. Deal with the problem by using plywood for a road across the ties.
Muck that waste rock off the adit sill by hand and use the wheelbarrow when able. Use a 12V winch to help if necessary.
Don't overlook the possibility of fine gold in the dirt on the floor. Do a few test pans you may be surprised.

Also as you said, buying certain supplies in town may cause unwanted attention so beware.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to steal your gold.

Once you start running motorized equipment on a regular basis folks will eventually notice. Including BLM

Go for the Gold
GG~

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Either of those motors would work.

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-bank-tutorial.html. This link explained it better than I can.

Been doing some thinking. Instead of building the winch-powered pulling thing that JCaz posted, you could modify it to attach directly to the ore car and power one axle of the v-groove wheels. At $100 for the winch from Harbor freight, you'd come out way ahead considering the costs of the mower conversion. On the other hand, the mower conversion keeps the transmission, the hood assembly, mounting, seating, and spots for lighting as you drive in and out.

The winch drive system might come in damn handy for powering a larger drum to raise and lower material down the hillside to get to the adit, once it's put on an anchored A-frame.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Have you seen any visible gold? Do you have milling equipment? Are the deposits locked up in sulfides?
I wouldn't put much dough or effort into cleanup until I had an assay.

Haven't seen any visible gold as we haven't taken any samples yet. My optimism at this point is tied to the pit on the south side of the claim that has gold in the overburden.

I'd be surprised if there aren't values locked up in the sulfides as well. There's a lot of arsenopyrite in the mine dump outside of the adit.

It's easy to put the cart in front of the horse when the fever is running high..... just sayin'
Soon as you know there are proven values to exploit first get the adit secured then work on clean up.

Oh, the fever is a new thing that came with an inner ear infection. The reason I've been putting a lot of thought into all phases of this monster is because I'm stuck at home with the dang shingles. Moving the gange out of a shaft/adit isn't something I've really done a lot of work on until now.

As far as getting started on cleanup I like your third option. Deal with the problem by using plywood for a road across the ties.
Muck that waste rock off the adit sill by hand and use the wheelbarrow when able. Use a 12V winch to help if necessary.
Don't overlook the possibility of fine gold in the dirt on the floor. Do a few test pans you may be surprised.

When I took a friend out to the pit on the south side, she took home a gallon back of dirt and found gold in it. I was surprised as hell since I'd been dumping it outside the pit without a second thought. Lesson learned, and luckily all that "overburden" is still sitting right there for easy access.

Also as you said, buying certain supplies in town may cause unwanted attention so beware.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to steal your gold.

Once you start running motorized equipment on a regular basis folks will eventually notice. Including BLM

Go for the Gold
GG~

True on the supplies, but living in Phoenix and ordering online gives me a bit of anonymity. Even when I go out to this place, I park the truck 5 miles away and the ATV gets hidden.

If the samples come back favorable with respect to ore body size versus waste rock, mining/milling hours per ton, capital costs and such, I'm going to slap a solid gate on that adit that will take a lot of work to get through to the lock system. And I might just put one of these on there too, inside the gate:



Also, putting in a sheet of plastic about 10-15' in like a curtain will keep snooping people from seeing something they decide they can't do without.