Start Up Costs?

Golden_Crab

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Looking for input from seasoned miners that live off mining, starting from the ground up what would be a fair estimate when factoring all your costs including equipment for a small scale operation. I want to keep my costs under 300k max. Ideally 50k max for sampling & acquisition then another 100-250k to fire it up. I need to estimate my ROI timeframe and I'm looking to keep it to less than 3 people in total. I am seeking a partner with experience successfully hard rock or placer mining that would interested in mining in AZ / NV / CO. Thanks!
 

SaltwaterServr

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Looking for input from seasoned miners that live off mining, starting from the ground up what would be a fair estimate when factoring all your costs including equipment for a small scale operation. I want to keep my costs under 300k max. Ideally 50k max for sampling & acquisition then another 100-250k to fire it up. I need to estimate my ROI timeframe and I'm looking to keep it to less than 3 people in total. I am seeking a partner with experience successfully hard rock or placer mining that would interested in mining in AZ / NV / CO. Thanks!

You need to start with your ore and work backwards from there. Someone who has done high grade oxidized lode in shallow dip adits using cyanide and ashing the carbon before smelting is going to have one helluva time working double-refractory heavy carbon Carlin deposits.
 

Mad Machinist

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Looking for input from seasoned miners that live off mining, starting from the ground up what would be a fair estimate when factoring all your costs including equipment for a small scale operation. I want to keep my costs under 300k max. Ideally 50k max for sampling & acquisition then another 100-250k to fire it up. I need to estimate my ROI timeframe and I'm looking to keep it to less than 3 people in total. I am seeking a partner with experience successfully hard rock or placer mining that would interested in mining in AZ / NV / CO. Thanks!

Most of it is going to depend on your ore if your going hard rock. Startup costs are only a small part of it. If your ore is hard or abrasive, maintenance costs will eat you alive. Same thing if you push your equipment passed it rated capacity.

Hard rock is not an easy way to make a living. Are you mechanically inclined? Can you weld? Do you know how to use an oxy-acetylene torch? Do you have the necessary tools to fix whatever breaks? What is your ore grade and how many tone do you plan on moving? Do you have a blasting license or now someone who does?

These and many more are all questions that have to be answered BEFORE any money is laid down.
 

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Golden_Crab

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Most of it is going to depend on your ore if your going hard rock. Startup costs are only a small part of it. If your ore is hard or abrasive, maintenance costs will eat you alive. Same thing if you push your equipment passed it rated capacity.

Hard rock is not an easy way to make a living. Are you mechanically inclined? Can you weld? Do you know how to use an oxy-acetylene torch? Do you have the necessary tools to fix whatever breaks? What is your ore grade and how many tone do you plan on moving? Do you have a blasting license or now someone who does?

These and many more are all questions that have to be answered BEFORE any money is laid down.

I'm starting with placer operations so I have time to work out all the bugs in a hardrock operation long before the wheels get put into motion, difficulty is not a concern for me I just need to know what I need to plan for that might not be so obvious for a greenhorn so to speak. Hardrock hasn't been my focus of study over the years so I find myself scratching my head in a few situations when planning things out, hence seeking someone that has done it before. I expect it to be a little trickery than placering but I see the possibility for great yields for the time invested. Not only that placering may not always be an option and I like to have options, big picture and all that jazz.
 

Goldwasher

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Well. a fully equipped large mine running ore that has values you can't see running less than 1/4 opt...a lab for testing and top line recovery is spending about $600 to $700 an ounce in the U.S.

So, if you knew your reserves in the ground you could do the math

Two to three guys with 300K and a lot of questions and no iron on or in the ground yet...

Are gonna run out of money real quick.

Focus on prospecting and gain the knowledge to find gold you can see and actually get in a pan under your own motivation...do that for about ten years then maybe you won't spend all your money and still just have a hole and lots of head scratching.
 

SaltwaterServr

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I'm starting with placer operations so I have time to work out all the bugs in a hardrock operation long before the wheels get put into motion, difficulty is not a concern for me I just need to know what I need to plan for that might not be so obvious for a greenhorn so to speak. Hardrock hasn't been my focus of study over the years so I find myself scratching my head in a few situations when planning things out, hence seeking someone that has done it before. I expect it to be a little trickery than placering but I see the possibility for great yields for the time invested. Not only that placering may not always be an option and I like to have options, big picture and all that jazz.

I'm making a run to pick up another piece of equipment today for our operation. When I get back I'll put together a list of things that need to be considered for underground lode operations. With $300k, you won't have a tenth of what you need for an open pit reclamation bond.

Pick what you want to do, placer or lode. Switching from one to the other is like becoming an expert in equine dentistry then deciding overnight to being a trauma surgeon in one of the busiest hospitals in America. Very little is going to translate. I'll try and find a few recovery circuit diagrams that show the difference.
 

Goodyguy

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Hardrock is night and day different than placer mining. Would not recommend throwing any serious money at it until you are seasoned with enough hands on experience to answer your own questions. Or else you run the risk of being like Todd Hoffman throwing money away making costly mining as well as legal mistakes learning every single lesson the hard way.

I can only speak from the standpoint of a novice hardrock prospector/miner with only a few years hands on experience but can tell you absolutely that there is much more to the science of hardrock underground mining and mineral recovery than meets the eye. Not to mention safety issues and regulations that seem to be endless that can put you out of business or bankrupt you if not strictly adhered to.

https://www.compliancetrainingonline.com/part_48_training_plan.cfm

Your idea of partnering with experienced miners is a smart step in the right direction but you have to bring something of value to the table in lieu of experience and/or physical capability. Deep pockets could certainly get your foot in the door as well as having an exploitable claim with proven values.

As SaltwaterSevr pointed out, having proven ore values are one thing, but extraction costs determine the viability of the venture.
Ore that is free milling is certainly preferable to dealing with the same values that are locked up in sulfides.


Go for the Gold!
GG~
 

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Mad Machinist

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I'm starting with placer operations so I have time to work out all the bugs in a hardrock operation long before the wheels get put into motion, difficulty is not a concern for me I just need to know what I need to plan for that might not be so obvious for a greenhorn so to speak. Hardrock hasn't been my focus of study over the years so I find myself scratching my head in a few situations when planning things out, hence seeking someone that has done it before. I expect it to be a little trickery than placering but I see the possibility for great yields for the time invested. Not only that placering may not always be an option and I like to have options, big picture and all that jazz.

I'm going to focus on hard rock because that is what I do. If you want a taste of hard rock costs here ya go. Just for a few guys and a small operation.

RC46DR crusher $10K
4'x8' shaker table $6-10K
water recirculation system $8-12K
contracted blasting $8-10K per shot (ongoing cost)
moving ore $ depends
maintenance budget $10-100K
core drilling $20- you don't want to know
assorted hand tools $10-25K

Hard rock can be done on a small budget BUT you have to have a group of people with a set of skills that are rare to find these days. In my case not only will I be mining I will also doing the mine mechanics, welding, and fabrication.
 

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Golden_Crab

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I'm going to focus on hard rock because that is what I do. If you want a taste of hard rock costs here ya go. Just for a few guys and a small operation.

RC46DR crusher $10K
4'x8' shaker table $6-10K
water recirculation system $8-12K
contracted blasting $8-10K per shot (ongoing cost)
moving ore $ depends
maintenance budget $10-100K
core drilling $20- you don't want to know
assorted hand tools $10-25K

Hard rock can be done on a small budget BUT you have to have a group of people with a set of skills that are rare to find these days. In my case not only will I be mining I will also doing the mine mechanics, welding, and fabrication.

Luckily I have a buddy who is a mechanical guru, I'm rather inclined myself. Finding the right person to bring on is going to be the hardest part for me. I can run through the process all I want, I know I"m going to miss the little stuff without the experience.
 

Mad Machinist

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Hard rock is where the money is but it also the most cost in terms of investment. Since Goodyguy brought them up, $20 a yard doesn't get me excited. I'm sitting on 8 grams per ton just in tailings. To make and apples to apples comparison, that's $640 a yard with a 2 ton per yard average. On another property we believe, according to past production, that it rests at 4 1/2-5 ounces per yard or 2.5 ounces per ton.

But then again, we're chasing what was left behind because it was to difficult to process until recently.

Whether placer or hard rock, it comes down to how much material you can move how fast in order to make a profit. DO it right and you and your crew make a lot of money, DO it wrong, not only do you go bankrupt, you hurt rf kill people in the process.

I'll help you where I can.

Good luck and may hit the mother load

And another thing. learn how to do your own assays. Then do a triple blind test on that assay to get an average.
 

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SaltwaterServr

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Start off by searching local. If you don't live in one of those three states you listed, move their with a steady job. You need to be with a few hours drive of where you're prospecting for a mine.

You need a high-clearance 4wd and/or an ATV with winch. The first truck I had when I started was destroyed by prospecting in rough terrain. My new one I bought with manual everything except transmission because I expect the mountains to destroy it too. It's just going to happen.

Learn geology. If you don't know the signs you're looking for, you could trip over a vein and not know it. Once you have a good handle on overall gold geology, start honing in on the spots you're hunting in. Expect to at least one full day every single week out in the field looking for something that looks like a good spot. The easy ones to get to are gotten to. You're looking for spots rarely visited or have some distinct disadvantage to the average prospector.

You're going to work with cyanide. It's a Hobson's choice.

Now let's say you got a place found. Make it easy, it's an adit. On BLM land.

Here's what you've got to consider:

Location: How long will it take you to commute to and from the mine, and from the mine into the working area of the mine itself? We're on BLM land so camping out there is drastically limited to a few weeks total per year. Couple this with vehicle wear and tear. If you need employees, how willing are they to drive to the site, or will you need to drive them out there yourself?

Electrical Usage: How many tens of thousands of watts do you need? How big is the generator you need then? How many gallons of diesel does it burn per day? Is your mine close enough to your processing facility that you need one, two, maybe three large generators? You won't believe how fast you'll run out of watts as you move through the rest of this list.

Ventilation: Only the size and layout of your particular mine will tell you how many cubic feet you need to push through per hour. You'll need exhaust fans as well for clearing the air after every blast both for fumes and for dust. You also need to keep temperatures down inside the mine. Yeah, it's 65 degrees underground, but put two people down there doing physically demanding work and the temps rise in the adit pretty quick. Seen my videos? I'm sweating in a lot of them underground. Also, as temperatures climb, the more likely accidents are to occur. MSHA did a study and anything over 85 degrees really impacts the number of underground accidents.

Lighting: You can get by with headlamps, but regular lighting cuts down on accidents tremendously.

Water: You either don't have enough, or you have too much. You'll need it for processing your ore. You'll need it for dust suppression. You'll need it flowing out of the mine if your mine makes water. If it does, how many gallons per hour? Per day? If you're not mining full time, how much do you have to pump out before you can resume after a 1, 3, 7 day lay off? Can you get the permits for discharge? If you're pumping, how much capacity do you need on the pump? Lines for pumping it out? Storage?

Ground support: It isn't cheap, nor easy to install. Are you using steel? Got a welder? Cutting torch? Enough ventilation in the mine and electrical power to run a welder and your fans and water pumps and lighting at the same time?

Drilling: You using air or electric? Got enough water? If air, how big of a compressor? How much diesel does it drink a day?

Mucking: Electric or air? Now you need a bigger compressor yet. Don't forget barring down loose ore and scaling the ribs.

Transport: Are you still only running the one adit? How are you moving the ore? Trams? Got enough power for an electric or ventilation for a gas? Ore car rail isn't cheap either. My best recollection was $600 per 30' of working length. That's not including the ties, bolts, or any bending you need to do. Do you need to widen your adit to allow empty cars to pass by full or will you have a turntable with an alcove for empty storage

Blasting: You won't move enough rock to make a decent living without this. Where you going to store your supplies? Site security? Training? If you're shooting ANFO, you'll need the right equipment to load the holes. Better keep damn good records of how much you use per day/shift/week and it better come out to what you've purchased. Those numbers don't match and your life just got put on hold while you fight the gov't regulatory agencies AFTER you shell out the fines.

Mine Development: How much rock do you need to move, how many hours per day/week/month/year are you going to invest in nothing related to ore extraction? This can be ground support, cutting raises/winzes, installing track, maintenance, changing out light bulbs for Pete's sake, rodent control, scaling and barring down gangue loosened by blasting, etc, etc.

Processing the Ore: The highest energy usage in the mine whether it be gas or electricity is generally found in the crushing and grinding. Dozens of books have been written on this part of gold mining from the time run-of-mine hits the processing area until it ends up at the refiner or the tailings pile.

Environment: Depending on your mine's location, you might only get to run portions of the year. Is that 10 months? 8 months? Less? Can you pull enough ore out in 2/3rds of the year before winter sets in or water dries up to make it a worthwhile endeavor? Is there a monsoon season that blocks access? Winter roads? Water freezing in the mine or processing plant? How will it affect your equipment?

Surveying: I'm going to throw in core sampling, assaying, and surveying all together. Are you staying on track with your samples drill holes? Did someone run a few blasts on the sill a little off now you have a hump creating a dam or an accidental sump? Is the angle of the adit following the strike of the vein? Are you staying on the dip if cutting a winze or raise?

Reclamation: On BLM land you'll owe up front. When you shut her down, you'll need to make it look like you were never there.

Then there's the usual. Insurance for the business and you/your family. Maintenance. Lost time for accidents. Lost time for safety inspections. Lost time for safety training. A hundred other things.

Enough for now. Making my own head hurt.
 

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Golden_Crab

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Great information, thanks. All stuff I would definitely miss. From a logistical standpoint getting started in the desert would be the most profitable, efficient way to get started. The water issues and blasting bit is what steered me towards placering unless I stumbled across someone that has successfully mined hardrock. I know I can run a placer operation no sweat, hardrock is another story.. been a while since I brushed up on chemistry, I'd sooner just bring on an expert than try to become one overnight.. I do better with operations anyway.
 

gold tramp

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You could forget about the tools, and spending all that hard earned money, just go prospect hardrock enjoy the great out doors get a little yellow in your poke and not have the headacke of trying to get rich.

Just enjoy being a prospector, if ya need more info on this subject stop by here at cladette mill i will talk with ya for a minute.
GT,,,,,,,,
 

augoldminer

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I will have to add to what SaltwaterServr has posted.

You will have to deal with MSHA and the cost of them.

A small two or three man mine you can expect to lose days mining when they are there.

You also can expect to be cited and maybe fined for the smallest thing.

One mine i worked at when the inspectors could not find anything else they cited us for not having a split toilet seat in our outhouse.
 

SaltwaterServr

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Great information, thanks. All stuff I would definitely miss. From a logistical standpoint getting started in the desert would be the most profitable, efficient way to get started. The water issues and blasting bit is what steered me towards placering unless I stumbled across someone that has successfully mined hardrock. I know I can run a placer operation no sweat, hardrock is another story.. been a while since I brushed up on chemistry, I'd sooner just bring on an expert than try to become one overnight.. I do better with operations anyway.

You won't be able to afford a chemist. Even if you did, adjusting pH, measuring grams per liter of cyanide, and doing cyanide destruction is going to get boring as hell for them about...that fast. Also, they're working on one of the two circuits where gold can be effectively stolen. One is in the gravimetric separation portion (watch for employees with wet pockets); the other is in the cyanide and elution circuit.

Like I said, it's a nasty Hobsonian choice. You can take it or leave it. Leaving it means dumping at least half your gold into tailings. Realistically you're dumping a lot more than that as easy access free mill gold claims are unicorns in your chosen area of operations. I'm not going to expand on it here as I don't want folks running about using it without a good understanding of what they're playing with.

To be perfectly candid, I'd forget about placer operations unless you're working on privately owned land. Every yard of dirt you move has to go back in reclamation on BLM land, and you're fighting a HUGE battle if you try it on forest service land. The reclamation bond you need has to be paid up front which is going to be a substantial portion of your CAPEX. If you only start with an NOI, you're limited to 5 acres or 1000 tons of material, as an absolute maximum. 1000 tons of dirt isn't even worth getting out of bed for.

1000 tons of rock though? At 1 ounce per ton? $1294.14 (current spot price) x 1000 tons x 90% recovery with cyanide = $1,164,726.00. Take that number, minus your capex and minus your opex should leave you in pretty good shape to expand your operations. Take that same at a half ounce per ton and you're still in good shape. Moreover, you've got a lot of equipment you'll need for your next project or you've gotten experience on smaller equipment that's cheaper to break.

Something else to keep in mind...less than 5% of the world's total gold production comes from placer operations. Hard rock is where the money is at.
 

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Golden_Crab

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You won't be able to afford a chemist. Even if you did, adjusting pH, measuring grams per liter of cyanide, and doing cyanide destruction is going to get boring as hell for them about...that fast. Also, they're working on one of the two circuits where gold can be effectively stolen. One is in the gravimetric separation portion (watch for employees with wet pockets); the other is in the cyanide and elution circuit.

Like I said, it's a nasty Hobsonian choice. You can take it or leave it. Leaving it means dumping at least half your gold into tailings. Realistically you're dumping a lot more than that as easy access free mill gold claims are unicorns in your chosen area of operations. I'm not going to expand on it here as I don't want folks running about using it without a good understanding of what they're playing with.

To be perfectly candid, I'd forget about placer operations unless you're working on privately owned land. Every yard of dirt you move has to go back in reclamation on BLM land, and you're fighting a HUGE battle if you try it on forest service land. The reclamation bond you need has to be paid up front which is going to be a substantial portion of your CAPEX. If you only start with an NOI, you're limited to 5 acres or 1000 tons of material, as an absolute maximum. 1000 tons of dirt isn't even worth getting out of bed for.

1000 tons of rock though? At 1 ounce per ton? $1294.14 (current spot price) x 1000 tons x 90% recovery with cyanide = $1,164,726.00. Take that number, minus your capex and minus your opex should leave you in pretty good shape to expand your operations. Take that same at a half ounce per ton and you're still in good shape. Moreover, you've got a lot of equipment you'll need for your next project or you've gotten experience on smaller equipment that's cheaper to break.

Something else to keep in mind...less than 5% of the world's total gold production comes from placer operations. Hard rock is where the money is at.

noted. :)

I do keep track of good lode locations... I haven't disregarded hardrock entirely, I just don't know as much about efficient extraction vs placer. I do know the ore I'm after is arkosic greenstone free milling gold / minor silver .800+ fineness, as for concentrations per ton whats a minimum you'd "get out of bed for"?

Also what equipment is worth picked up used VS. new? Or just nab everything at an auction?
 

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SaltwaterServr

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noted. :)

I do know the ore I'm after is arkosic greenstone free milling gold / minor silver .800+ fineness,

You're still kinda going at it backwards unless you've picked out an area you live in and that's the general ore type found thereabouts. You won't get to pick the blend as it will vary in a vein system. You'll also be working with oxidized and unoxidized ores, depending on depth.

as for concentrations per ton whats a minimum you'd "get out of bed for"?

That's wholly dependent on operational costs for the deposit, specifically how much rock needs to be processed to get to that ton of ore. What good is an ounce per ton of ore rock-in-place if the vein is 3" wide?

In that scenario I've got to cut out a huge amount of rock to get to one ton of ore. My ounce per ton average is now garbage because my operational costs are set against moving the total tonnage of rock, not just pulling the ore. Let's say my adit is 7' high and 6' wide, but only a 3" band inside that rock is ore. I move that chunk of rock and if my math is right, you've got about 2/5ths of a ton of ore. It'll take you more than a 5 day week to pull out 1 ton of ore and you'll need three people to do it. 1295.10 going three ways before taxes, recovery losses, and operational expenditures means you'd come out behind a guy flipping burgers for $10 an hour.

How about a half ounce per ton, highly disseminated in a band 6' wide on a near vertical vein? I've got to pull about 6' wide of rock out to make my adit/shaft as I follow the vein, but now every speck of rock I pull is ore. Ah ha! Now that three feet of adit I drove is worth some money.

How about around 9 grams per ton reprocessing someone else's tailings that haven't been worked by cyanide? My operational costs went down because I'm not drilling, blasting, and mucking rock. My area of operation is pretty small so my transportation costs are way lower than digging dirt with heavy equipment. Less diesel, more money in the pocket. My reclamation costs "could" be next to nothing because I'm again in a very small footprint and actually restoring the environment to a pre-mine condition. The cyanide throws a monkey in the wrench there though.

In summary, it all depends. We've got multiple properties we're evaluating and every one of those has completely different challenges. While a good rule is 1 ounce per ton at least a foot wide, there is a lot that comes into play on the ledger. If that mine makes a lot of water, I still might not want to mess with it. If it needs 8 months of rehab work to get to MSHA approval, I might not want to tackle it immediately.

Also what equipment is worth picked up used VS. new? Or just nab everything at an auction?

100% of my lab equipment will be brand-new. Machinery is Mad Machinist's forte and I let him tell the rest of us what he wants to do on it.
 

Mad Machinist

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yea machinery is my forte.

As for the machinery, you have to evaluate the cost of new versus used. With used equipment you have to look at what the cost of new is and then price getting the equipment back into working order. Take a Keene RC46 for instance. If you can pick up one in good used condition for half the price of new, then it might be worth spending the money on new rolls and jaw plates. The rolls and jaw plates are about $500 for each set. But with the single roll RC46 you may have to run multiple passes to get the grind you want bringing production down.

Now the new RC46DR is a double roll set up than can produce one ton per hour at 50 to 150 mesh. For what it does the price isn't too bad at $10K. But you'll need at least a 4'x8' shaker table to handle that kind of output if your on free milling gold.

As for core drilling, the Winkie drill is man transportable and can drill down to about 475' with a two man crew. 1 guy could probably do it but I wouldn't want to try it. A rebuilt Winkie with all the drill stem is going to run around $20K. And water transport becomes a problem as water is needed to flush cuttings away from the bit and keep it cool.

More in a little bit.....
 

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Golden_Crab

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yea machinery is my forte.

As for the machinery, you have to evaluate the cost of new versus used. With used equipment you have to look at what the cost of new is and then price getting the equipment back into working order. Take a Keene RC46 for instance. If you can pick up one in good used condition for half the price of new, then it might be worth spending the money on new rolls and jaw plates. The rolls and jaw plates are about $500 for each set. But with the single roll RC46 you may have to run multiple passes to get the grind you want bringing production down.

Now the new RC46DR is a double roll set up than can produce one ton per hour at 50 to 150 mesh. For what it does the price isn't too bad at $10K. But you'll need at least a 4'x8' shaker table to handle that kind of output if your on free milling gold.

As for core drilling, the Winkie drill is man transportable and can drill down to about 475' with a two man crew. 1 guy could probably do it but I wouldn't want to try it. A rebuilt Winkie with all the drill stem is going to run around $20K. And water transport becomes a problem as water is needed to flush cuttings away from the bit and keep it cool.

More in a little bit.....

May be a silly question, is renting or just sourcing out the drilling I need done to a local with their equipment (hey if it breaks I ain't stuck with the bill) more amenable? Have you ever rented / outsourced your drilling before?
 

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Goldwasher

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you realize paying for drilling is gonna cost you thousands...on ground you have secured the rights to drill

before you drill you would have put in a lot of work and money.

You don't drill to see whats there you drill to see where it goes where it is where it isn't. To formulate a plan on the mining.

You may spend 20 k to drill and find out that the bulk reserves would need a market price of 2k an ounce to profit. Even if there are hot spots above that grade.

Some one you pay to do your drilling will take your money regardless of what the results mean to you.

No one is gonna rent you that type of drill rig or train you on using it. They have too many jobs lined up.

You are tryng to skip over a lot of things to get to an operating mine. Because you want it. Think you can figurre out the right corners to cut and will be able to figure it out.

Move, head west learn to prospect...when You have produced a pound of gold with a Pick Shovel and pan...Then maybe you'll have enough prospecting knowledge to decide what your strengths are...what type of operation you want to create.

My opinion is that you can throw a lot more color on a much smaller chunk of ground than is being called for here with less equipment.

Though the ground has to be rich. That kind of ground takes a lot of knowledge experience and worn out boots to find and secure.

Skipping all of that on the front end. Will surely lead to wasting of a lot of money.

If you want to placer. Actually have 300k to invest. Than look at states like Nevada. Idaho, Even Oregon. There are areas where you can get the permitting to start an op on paying ground. That you will be able to profit off of.

Somehow there is a belief that placer mining with wash plants in the U.S is outlawed or something.

There are joint ventures and people with ground looking for working investors. I know of one in Nevada right now. If I had a truck with a welder, an rv to sleep in and a quad I would be there right now.

The owner is looking for a working partner. You would also need you MSHA training.
 

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