Limas lost burial grounds

Crow

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Lima's lost burial grounds

In the back streets of the Peruvian capital city of Lima. Another site is being excavated in a construction site. this is normal process in a city which has the growth rate of about 6% per year and more and land is being gobbled up By urbanization. But it questions the ideas of archeologists and historians alike about how do you balance urban growth and maintain cultural identity when some of the smaller archeological sites will have to be destroyed for the needs of the living and not the dead?

SUBURBAN BACKYARN CONSTUCTION SITE.jpg

There is a saying the coast of Peru is one vast cemetery and ethical question arise what to do with these grave sites that are now standing in the way of Progress? Who bares the costs? Many developers not wanting the burden and the holding up of a developments will destroy a site to avoid paying the extra cost of of an archeological dig at their sites. The under funded archeological division of Peru only has a budget of 5 million a year to support maintain secure over 16000 archeological sites across the country. An almost impossible task.

NATIVE GARVE SITE.jpg

This is where I believe there is some scope for the limited sales of pottery and artifacts to help fund the preservation of other more important sites. I do not see any value in ware houses full of artifacts the public never sees only a few elite to enjoy them when these less important artifact if properly recorded of all details could be on sold on the open market. Collectors treasure them just as much as Museums as long as registered I cannot see why private individuals cannot own artifacts. Most people who buy these artifact are generally well educated and financially smart enough to know these items are valuable historian items.

EXCAVATION OF BURIAL SITE.jpg

Archeologists have in my opinion have a arrogant flawed philosophy that is paying a high price on cultural sites across the world where urban pressure is becoming an increasing problem. They have married themselves into an unworkable relation ship against the stone cold reality. By drafting the UNESCO Convention policy of History artifacts is doing more damage than good by not allowing some for commercial enterprise. No one wants cultural sites destroyed how ever archeologists must face reality as we have to make way for the world of the living and not the dead. Some sites will be destroyed as it is the natural procession of any culture. To counter such costs of archeology servey and excavation. The is cost such excavations of some sites could be offset by private enterprise buying excess recorded artifacts released onto the market in a workable business model frame work.

indian grave in back yard..jpg

If the attitude does change in coming years we could run the risk of losing many historical sites to wanting destruction due to poor for business models being pumped by the archeological community still humping non profit research grant line.

Its perhaps enough to make this old guy below scream

NATIVE SKULL.jpg

Crow
 

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Hi Crow

I agree, there should be some scope for selling surplus items to registered and knowledgeable traders and collectors. So many pieces lie in museums that vie with one another to grab as many as they can, only to keep them hidden away gathering dust. There are many so-called artefacts in museums that are fake as well. Many rely on private collectors to offer their opinions on whether to purchase a piece or not or to vouch for its authenticity. When I am abroad in mainland Europe on holiday, there is nothing more that I like than to browse in old bookshops and antique and curios establishments. You get to talk to some real interesting people who really know their field and have many splendid tales to tell. One way the authorities could try and regulate the trade, is to really be more practical in its consideration of what happens and why. Simply trying to ban everything rarely ever works if we take our precedent for history. Where there is a demand, supply routes will always, always be found.


IPUK
 

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Crow

Crow

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Hello IPIU

Its refreshing to see such a forward thinking out look and understanding of the market. You may have the makings of A treas....er....Researcher yet8-)

Crow
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Hi Don Tayopa

I shall have a quick peek at your link and get back to you presto pronto.

IPUK

PS. Hold the refreshments 'til I get back buddy - nothing worse than a cold cuppa:coffee2:
 

Mar 2, 2013
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Hello Don

This new link has worked - I'm on the page Explorers Club Award Winners opening web page. I'm going to have a good read and get back to you sharpish.

By the way, I recall you mentioning the Dana and Ginger Lamb, they sent one of the members of this club to check some places in your stomping ground. I believe it was an old town by the name of Baroyeca?

IPUK
 

Nov 8, 2004
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G'd morning IPUJ: yer tea is getting cold. Also you are close, Dana & Ginger Lamb were of the Adventurers Club of Los Angeles,,patterned after the Explorers Club..

they were my mentors and turned me to Mexico instead of Brazil & south America.

They did not send me to Baroyeca, but I investigated on my own to see if I col find the treasure buried in the Region by the personal there.

It was not a Church treasure..When the Yaqui' were sweeping over the land in revolt, the towns people got together and buried their valuables in a small cave on the bank of the arroyo then caved it in. All were subsequently killed and the Yaqui told me that they never found the treasure. I believe that only the priest and some of the children survived.t
Later over the years the area was reinvestigated by mining co. and is still being rested and investigated.

The original silver property, which was owned by the Jesuit Church, is held by a friend and my wife holds a position on the board.,_ not lucrative, sniff _ but we do hold title to a property to the East that is valued @ $ 2000 US a ton, but since someone stole the basic equipment it is not working.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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Crow

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Hello Don Jose

Mentors....Mine was Hardluck a walking encyclopedia.

Crow
 

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Crow

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Hello Don Jose

Amy is a very smart young women. She will excel in what ever she does in this world. Her outlook is very advanced for her age. However in the nature of things, marriage children and family commitments will come along. I only hope she keeps in contact with us heart broken old men. Such is life my friends, you cannot expect anything else.

And for hardluck I think you would of beern mentoring him my friend.

Crow
 

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Sorry Don Tayopa - in my enthusiasm, I got my clubs mixed-up.

As you say, it was the Adventurers Club of LA, the fella I was referring to was Romain Wilhelmsen, who wrote a really good book about his various trips. I believe he went to Baroyeca in the 1950s and to the Copper Canyon in the Sierra Madres, as well as to some places where he was the first white person to witness certain Tarahumarai dances and festivals. Apparently he also found some old Spanish conquistador armour from the days of Cortez. Some soldiers deserted after the initial conquest, to try there luck in present-day Sonora and Chihuahua. They found no civilization or culture to rival the Aztecs but found a highly mineralized area and placer stream. They collected a fair amount and stayed for a good period of time but had attracted the attention of Apaches or Yaquis, and were massacred soon after.

Did the Lambs ever strike it lucky so to speak?

IPUK
 

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IPUK, sub the Yaquis for the Tarahumars and it sounds like my early days.. I traveled into the Barranca de Cobre in the early 50's also, alone except for my pinto mule. The RR hadn't even been started, I never found any Spanish armour though.

I wonder why we never crossed paths ??? Same time period and location, loose Gringos were not too common, in fact in some places I was the first they had seen -- they loved my blue eyes- but that didn't include the lonely ranch girls sniff. Oro must have passed thourgh there and ruined it for other gentle mannered gringos.

The Apace controlled the high sierras, at times almost to the southern part of Sonora, including Tayopa..

I lived wth the Yaqui for 5 years, They always kept tha carrot just in front of my nose and due partially to my efforts, did regain a large section of their land that had been illegally taken and a nice irrigation system.

Yes, I know the Bacatetes better than the Yaquis, but I can't compete with the unholy trio.

Dan & ginger wrote 4 books on their adventures, and served on a Presidential council for jungle survival in WW II

Dan finally ran a wayward boy's camp Ginger died and Dan remarried. Now deceased.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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doc-d

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Thanks for a great post that makes sense…….do you think it possible for changes to be en-acted as you suggest?
Unfortunately common sense seems to doom this……..tons of things will sit gathering dust in empty warehouses unfortunately…….
Vaya con Dios!
 

Aug 23, 2013
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Hello Doc-D

Unfortunately this will never happen because if various institutions sold of 10% of their artifacts onto the general market the rarity would decrease and so would the value of their collections.

Corp
 

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Hello Doc-D

Unfortunately this will never happen because if various institutions sold of 10% of their artifacts onto the general market the rarity would decrease and so would the value of their collections.

Corp


Hello CI

The above maybe the case in the 'traditional' markets of the US and Europe. But there is a truly voracious appetite amongst the nouveau riche in certain countries to acquire the top-end stuff as soon as it becomes available. Conversely, the better and unique the item, the greater the demand. Here in the UK, as soon as what is in demand comes onto the market, regardless of the quantity, it is bought and more often than not, can and does cause bidding wars. The supply would not impact on prices if the seller knew their markets.......:coins::3barsgold::coins::3barsgold:

IPUK
 

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