JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[releventchair]

In the second paragraph of the preface is mention of an inexhaustible supply of copper. Its documented use by the Jesuits for trade medals,rings,painting surfaces,reliquaries ect.leads to a question with so much copper and its ability to be traced to origins, if Jesuits traded it among their own orders in a raw state for other metals they could use thus circumventing a superiors share? A trinity of workable metals shared along ancient trade routes. In at least one mine today in Az. Michigan copper samples are shown to visitors as the mines copper is more of a dust so what was the source there?. The staggering estimates of removed copper over thousands of years had to go somewhere and the worlds greatest scholars of the time should have known some of the players. Again,before the Jesuits arrived in the N.E. they knew of its presence. How much went S.W.?

The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents Volume 69

 

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[cactusjumper]

In the second paragraph of the preface is mention of an inexhaustible supply of copper. Its documented use by the Jesuits for trade medals,rings,painting surfaces,reliquaries ect.leads to a question with so much copper and its ability to be traced to origins, if Jesuits traded it among their own orders in a raw state for other metals they could use thus circumventing a superiors share? A trinity of workable metals shared along ancient trade routes. In at least one mine today in Az. Michigan copper samples are shown to visitors as the mines copper is more of a dust so what was the source there?. The staggering estimates of removed copper over thousands of years had to go somewhere and the worlds greatest scholars of the time should have known some of the players. Again,before the Jesuits arrived in the N.E. they knew of its presence. How much went S.W.?

The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents Volume 69

releventchair,

A good book on the subject is: "Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper " By Susan Martin.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...er&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&x=83&y=7

Once again, if anyone is interested, the book to read for the early formation of the Jesuit Order is, "The First Jesuits" by Father John O'Malley. He is the expert on the history of the Jesuits.

Copies can be found here: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=9780674303133&sortby=1

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I assume there is a source for the highlighted portion above.

It is implied even if not mentioned specifically. Mining would be a commercial enterprise, and would fall under "temporal" aspects, as you can see listed, Coadjutors are often assigned to handle temporal aspects of missions. Unless you can see some way to have mining specifically excluded from the duties of Coadjutors listed as Temporal? Notice they do not exclude livestock ranching, raising grain, refining sugar nor ANY kind of commerce in any source, so for you to pick mining to exclude is not logical nor supported by evidence.


Definition of temporal: relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular.
Definition of MINING. : the process or business of working mines


In support of the contention that the Jesuits had their hands in EVERY kind of commerce, mining included, we have the statement from Cardinal Saldanha after investigating the Jesuits in Portuguese dominions:

Cardinal Saldanha, after investigation, made a report in which "the fathers of the society in Portugal and her dominions at the end of the earth are declared on the fullest information guilty of every crime of worldly traffic which could disgrace the ecclesiastical state. "

<from The Footprints of the Jesuits, pp 189, citing The Suppression of the Society of Jesus in the Portuguese Dominions By the Rev Alfred Weld of the Society of Jesus London,pp 131-132, Weld was a stout Jesuit apologist BTW>


Cactusjumper wrote

Once again, if anyone is interested, the book to read for the early formation of the Jesuit Order is, "The First Jesuits" by Father John O'Malley. He is the expert on the history of the Jesuits.

Not to pick nits on this recommendation however this author is Rev. John W. O'Malley, S.J, as in Society of Jesus, a Jesuit. I have yet to see any Jesuit historian point out ANY faults of any kind in the history of their Order, which clearly indicates a society-wide bias. In fact quite the opposite is the case, we have seen Jesuits deny everything relating to unpleasant or illegal activities. Hence to arrive at anything like a fair or realistic view of the history of the Jesuits, contrary and un-biased sources should also be consulted. The fact that the Jesuits were legally thrown out of over 100 different countries in the course of their history, even ordered suppressed "forever" by the Pope himself at one point, ought to be an eye opener that any version of events from the Jesuits themselves is very much open to question. To expect a Jesuit to report frankly on a history of his own Order, including some rather dark chapters is not logical.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Deducer Coffee, I need it tis morning. I also as a kiddie attended a Jesuit scool. The one thing that I never figured out was how did a simple 1 ft ruler reach 10 meters to whack my head or most often my knuckles when I was misbehaving or not paying attention ? I even was an alter boy.

Other than that, most here insist in placing all Jesuits in the same mold. ? It was a very complex society with priests, neophytes, and coadjutors in various levels of labors and confidence - much as a modern Military force. The front line mission Priest had nothing in common with say one in the upper echelons of the political force. other than advancing the order's beliefs and power. etc.,

Thus we have the remains of small unknown missions with no ordained Priest where effectively no natives lived to any extent,.which were used to forward the production of the mines to waiting ships below Matamoros for trans-shipment to Rome.

When the expulsion order came, many loads of metal etc., being shipped to Rome remained in the underground chamber, which by coincidence was a common feature, as was the construction of many of the unnamed small missions.

In my explorations, I have had many Indians tell me of missions that served their fathers, and fathers before them, etc, having pack loads of metal still stored in the underground chamber.

One in Particular Lies in the large curve of the inter sierra highway, just below Yepache in Chihuahua. The Indians have asked me to bring a metal locater to help them find this deposit. They know approximately where the remains of the Mission it is, but since, over the years, it has melted back into the ground, they can't find the exact spot.

Actually, all that they need to do is to get an aerial photograph from Mexico City, it will show them clearly where the
the old mision is / was due to the discoloration of the ground. old creeks, brooks, & rivers are easily spoted this way.

I have tons of data similar to this, which unfortunately I am still the only source

Tis kinda silly to find 'yourself, & a few Indians" the source of data, which you can't really back up by written references, since the written references will be written some time in the future based upon your data, and findings. --------------- Famous catch 22 or chicken and the egg ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Since you have not read the book, it seems a bit illogical for you to make such a judgement call of Father O'Malley's book.
Father O'Malley has been mentioned a number of times in this topic, and his status as a Jesuit was well established. Being a Jesuit, IMHO, does not have any bearing on the truthfulness of his writing.

Every writer has personal biases that affect their writings. The anti-Jesuit books that have been mentioned goes to the opposite extreme. I have read both sides of the debate, and came down on the side of the Order.

Take care,

Joe

 

[releventchair]

Here Don Jose for your morning. A science of eggs and I,ll leave the copper rest.

Are Copper Bowls Really Better for Whipping Egg Whites?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Being a Jesuit, IMHO, does not have any bearing on the truthfulness of his writing.

Perhaps you can post an extract from father O'Malley's book, describing some aspect of Jesuit history which is NOT flattering to themselves? Thank you in advance.

Have to sign off, will try to drop in later.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Not a problem. I will quote from his book this evening.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Not a problem. I will quote from his book this evening.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you in advance, perhaps something relating to their "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness" would impress and support the impartiality of Father O'Malley?

A side point here but I have read a fair number of books covering the history of the Jesuits at this point. Almost all are either heavily pro-Jesuit, or anti-Jesuit. I do understand and respect that you have come down on the side of the Jesuits. I have reached the polar opposite conclusion. In support of this, if the Jesuits were truly the living angelic saints as described in some Jesuit publications, innocent of ALL of the accusations flung at them, why then do we have this remarkable record of their expulsions and even an official suppression by the Pope himself? All just the hateful lies of the enemies of the Jesuits?

Also, we have listed some of the wealth of this Order as well, it is impressive and clearly was separate from the Church of Rome. If they were not amassing wealth, how do we explain their lists of properties and sizable amounts of cash found in bank accounts? All just trumped up and out of context complaints, and really the result of wise and prudent husbanding of financial resources?

I look forward to seeing some evidence that a Jesuit historian can be un-biased toward his own Order.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Thank you in advance, perhaps something relating to their "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness" would impress and support the impartiality of Father O'Malley?

A side point here but I have read a fair number of books covering the history of the Jesuits at this point. Almost all are either heavily pro-Jesuit, or anti-Jesuit. I do understand and respect that you have come down on the side of the Jesuits. I have reached the polar opposite conclusion. In support of this, if the Jesuits were truly the living angelic saints as described in some Jesuit publications, innocent of ALL of the accusations flung at them, why then do we have this remarkable record of their expulsions and even an official suppression by the Pope himself? All just the hateful lies of the enemies of the Jesuits?

Also, we have listed some of the wealth of this Order as well, it is impressive and clearly was separate from the Church of Rome. If they were not amassing wealth, how do we explain their lists of properties and sizable amounts of cash found in bank accounts? All just trumped up and out of context complaints, and really the result of wise and prudent husbanding of financial resources?

I look forward to seeing some evidence that a Jesuit historian can be un-biased toward his own Order.
Oroblanco

I, too, have yet to find this impartiality.

Consequently, if a book about Jesuits is written by an author who is a Jesuit, I have difficulty taking it at face value.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias Revelent, ya seee something new and useful to learn every day,

Jose

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I have to take Joe's side here. Father O'Malley SJ has been my inside source for everything Jesuit for several years. Remember when I stated that I had a source that was a Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University that didn't have a problem with the idea the Jesuits had mines? He is the same man that told me about the Pope having slaves on the Papal Barge. No, Father O'Malley is an EXCELLENT source of history on the Order of Jesus. He pulls no punches and calls a spade a spade. He openly admits the Order's shortcomings.

But, as Father O'Malley will tell you himself, he is not an expert on Colonial New World Jesuits. His work lies mostly with Jesuits and the Order from 1540 till the early 1600s in Europe.

Very nice man, and probably currently the most renowned historian of the Order. I can't say enough good things about him.

Mike

 

[deducer]

But, as Father O'Malley will tell you himself, he is not an expert on Colonial New World Jesuits. His work lies mostly with Jesuits and the Order from 1540 till the early 1600s in Europe.
Mike

IMHO, his qualifications as far as understanding the philosophy and goals of the Jesuits from the very beginning would give him very good credibility to make some educated guesses as to what went on in the New World.

Did you have a chance to ask him his opinion on the alleged/rumored actions of the Jesuits in the New World (illegal mining, treasure hoarding, and concealments) and whether it would be realistic to assume that what, for example, happened in France and Portugal, and subsequently in Brazil, was probably also what happened in the New World as far as advancing their own agenda at the expense of their assigned one?

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have to take Joe's side here. Father O'Malley SJ has been my inside source for everything Jesuit for several years. Remember when I stated that I had a source that was a Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University that didn't have a problem with the idea the Jesuits had mines? He is the same man that told me about the Pope having slaves on the Papal Barge. No, Father O'Malley is an EXCELLENT source of history on the Order of Jesus. He pulls no punches and calls a spade a spade. He openly admits the Order's shortcomings.

But, as Father O'Malley will tell you himself, he is not an expert on Colonial New World Jesuits. His work lies mostly with Jesuits and the Order from 1540 till the early 1600s in Europe.

Very nice man, and probably currently the most renowned historian of the Order. I can't say enough good things about him.

Mike

Mike,

You are 100% correct in your reading of Father O'Malley except for this statement: " His work lies mostly with Jesuits and the Order from 1540 till the early 1600s in Europe." While "mostly" is correct, he has written another book who's title is:"What Happened At Vatican ll". That book details an event that was very important to Catholics.

Father O'Malley's reputation as the foremost historian on Jesuit history is well worth defending......and you have just done a fine job of that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

IMHO, his qualifications as far as understanding the philosophy and goals of the Jesuits from the very beginning would give him very good credibility to make some educated guesses as to what went on in the New World.

Did you have a chance to ask him his opinion on the alleged/rumored actions of the Jesuits in the New World (illegal mining, treasure hoarding, and concealments) and whether it would be realistic to assume that what, for example, happened in France and Portugal, and subsequently in Brazil, was probably also what happened in the New World as far as advancing their own agenda at the expense of their assigned one?

deducer,

Both Mike and I asked him about Jesuit mining. We both got the same answer....."it's possible". He is not the kind of man who would further your agenda......with a guess. There "assigned" agenda was the saving of souls. They were the best at that work.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Both Mike and I asked him about Jesuit mining. We both got the same answer....."it's possible". He is not the kind of man who would further your agenda......with a guess. There "assigned" agenda was the saving of souls. They were the best at that work.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I'm sure that he was willing to say that to you or to Mike in private, but was he willing to put that into print? I think that's the question Roy is trying to ask, and you have yet to provide a specific example of where Fr. O'Malley was willing to write about any shortcomings as far as the organization to which he belongs.

While their "assigned agenda" was supposed to be the "saving of souls" or forced conversions of the Indians, it doesn't follow that this was the only agenda the Jesuits had in the New World. After all, they were betrothed to Spain about as much as they were betrothed to France or Portugal, or any of the other countries they actively interfered with.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

"it's possible" hmmmmm twas for sure. am reminded of the Jesuit at the gasoline station, when he saw "Real de Tayopa" on the side of my trooper came over with a huge smile and insisted that we have a get together in Yecora, his residence, that he had a huge pot of coffee. Now why would he be interested in Tayopa Are they still looking fo r it ? If so just contact me.I am willing to make a deal, honest.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm sure that he was willing to say that to you or to Mike in private, but was he willing to put that into print? I think that's the question Roy is trying to ask, and you have yet to provide a specific example of where Fr. O'Malley was willing to write about any shortcomings as far as the organization to which he belongs.

While their "assigned agenda" was supposed to be the "saving of souls" or forced conversions of the Indians, it doesn't follow that this was the only agenda the Jesuits had in the New World. After all, they were betrothed to Spain about as much as they were betrothed to France or Portugal, or any of the other countries they actively interfered with.

deducer,

There is little doubt, in my mind, that you and I are totally unqualified to decide what the Jesuit agenda was in the New World. It also "doesn't follow" that savings souls was not their only agenda.

As for searching Father O'Malley's books for negative comments on the Jesuit Order, I am not on your schedule, or anyone else's. It's a bit unreasonable to expect a Jesuit to make derogative statements about the history of his own Order. There are some, but the books are not a condemnation of the entire Jesuit movement. It's more like pointing out mistakes that were made.

Not knowing the history of that era, makes understanding what took place very difficult. Right and wrong today was not so black and white in those times.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

There is little doubt, in my mind, that you and I are totally unqualified to decide what the Jesuit agenda was in the New World. It also "doesn't follow" that savings souls was not their only agenda.

You have every right to share your opinions about what you think constitutes being qualified, but you don't really have the right to tell another poster if they're qualified to "decide." I disagree with you in that I've read enough on this subject to make some educated guesses as to what the Jesuits were up to in the New World, and "saving" was not the sole purpose of their presence in the New World.

As for searching Father O'Malley's books for negative comments on the Jesuit Order, I am not on your schedule, or anyone else's.

With all due respect, I didn't set the schedule for you, you did:

Not a problem. I will quote from his book this evening.

It's a bit unreasonable to expect a Jesuit to make derogative statements about the history of his own Order. There are some, but the books are not a condemnation of the entire Jesuit movement. It's more like pointing out mistakes that were made.

I don't think anyone was expecting a Jesuit to make any derogatory statements about his own organization, but whether or not he would be upfront and honest about some of the shortcomings of his organization, instead of glossing over it or ignoring it outright.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,


[How the First Jesuits Became Involved in Education By John W. O'Malley, S.J.

Like all traditions, the Jesuit tradition has, to be sure, its dark side. Its embodiment up to 1773 has been
criticized for being elitist, paternalistic, backward-looking, religiously bigoted. In its restored form from the
nineteenth century forward, it has been criticized for being reactionary and repressive, ghetto-enclosed.
Such criticisms are too persistent not to deserve attention. I merely call attention to them here so that you
know I am keenly aware of them. But this afternoon I do not stand before you to criticize the Jesuit tradition
or to praise it. I am here to sketch with very broad strokes how it began, what it was trying to accomplish,
and how it developed especially in the foundational years. There will perforce be a certain amount of overlap
with my two presentations because there is no way of talking about how the Jesuits got involved in education
without dealing with the humanistic tradition, the subject of my other contribution.]

http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/top/church21/pdf/HowtheFirstJesuitsBecameInvolvedinEducation.pdf

Joe Ribaudo