Jesuits / Franciscans Reccomended Reading

[Old Bookaroo]

I'd like to take the wooden stake out of the heart of this Thread to ask if anyone remembers the title of the book (I believe it was recommended by "gollum") that was useful in researching Jesuit treasures. I'm sure it was not the Relations - but I can't recall the name and I can't find the reference to it here on TN.

Thank you!

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

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[Oroblanco]

I'd like to take the wooden stake out of the heart of this Thread to ask if anyone remembers the title of the book (I believe it was recommended by "gollum") that was useful in researching Jesuit treasures. I'm sure it was not the Relations - but I can't recall the name and I can't find the reference to it here on TN.

Thank you!

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

I believe you may be referring to the Rules and Precepts of the Jesuits by father Charles Polzer SJ. I may not have the title exactly right but if you do a search for Charles Polzer as the author it will turn up.

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe you may be referring to the Rules and Precepts of the Jesuits by father Charles Polzer SJ. I may not have the title exactly right but if you do a search for Charles Polzer as the author it will turn up.

Roy,

I have read "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" many times over the years. One has to make some serious assumptions to think of Father Polzer's book as offering any kind of "proof" of Jesuit treasures. That, of course, is just my opinion which is worth less and less with each passing day.

Copies can be purchased here: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Se...Jesuits&yrl=&yrh=&prl=&prh=&recentlyadded=all

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Thank you both! That is very helpful! Wasn't Father Polzer the author of the famous Smoke Signals and Desert Magazine
articles about Jesuit treasures? I know I have a copy around here someplace...

Again - thank you! I'm trying to help someone else here on TN who sent me a PM about the topic and I just don't know a great deal about it.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Real of Tayopa]

NEVER THE LESS THEY EXITED.aT tAYOPA AND AT cABALLO MT.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I have read "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" many times over the years. One has to make some serious assumptions to think of Father Polzer's book as offering any kind of "proof" of Jesuit treasures. That, of course, is just my opinion which is worth less and less with each passing day.

Copies can be purchased here: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Se...Jesuits&yrl=&yrh=&prl=&prh=&recentlyadded=all

Take care,

Joe

Mike (Gollum) felt that Polzer's work on the rules and precepts was a very good source reference, in that it had many pieces of the puzzle, like not putting things into writing because of some unfortunate experience(s), as one example. There is no book ON Jesuit treasures that I am aware of, however if one is just wanting to confirm that the Jesuit order was the richest entity in the New World circa 1767, I would suggest to read The Wealth of the Jesuits in 1767,
https://www.jstor.org/stable/980785
pay special attention to the footnotes and end notes, for there we learn that some of the "haciendas" are ore milling plants, and also the California Pious Fund which owned some mines which were operated for the benefit of the missions in California (as well as ranches and farms) as there are good records existing of these properties.

I would also suggest Rudo Ensayo, a description of Sonora by father Juan Nentvig SJ, here is one copy online BUT a key portion has been removed. Note in this excellent geographical work, that all the Spanish mines and mining settlements are listed and described separately from the mines of the missions, which are listed WITH the missions as they would be technically the property of each mission under control of the priests as guardians for the Indios whom were legally not better than children.
Rudo Ensayo: A DESCRIPTION OF SONORA AND ARIZONA IN 1764
There are others, but as far as I know none are specifically about Jesuit treasures. Side thing but if memory serves father Polzer wrote an article for Desert mag attacking and ridiculing the very idea of Jesuit treasures, while also admitting to two instances where fathers were "caught" mining.

 

[Oroblanco]

PS to Joe, can't agree on your opinions value, since it still stands very high in my book. On the other hand, I am slowly learning that I should stop trying to convince anyone of anything, since the polar opposite is what results in every case.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike (Gollum) felt that Polzer's work on the rules and precepts was a very good source reference, in that it had many pieces of the puzzle, like not putting things into writing because of some unfortunate experience(s), as one example. There is no book ON Jesuit treasures that I am aware of, however if one is just wanting to confirm that the Jesuit order was the richest entity in the New World circa 1767, I would suggest to read The Wealth of the Jesuits in 1767,
https://www.jstor.org/stable/980785
pay special attention to the footnotes and end notes, for there we learn that some of the "haciendas" are ore milling plants, and also the California Pious Fund which owned some mines which were operated for the benefit of the missions in California (as well as ranches and farms) as there are good records existing of these properties.

I would also suggest Rudo Ensayo, a description of Sonora by father Juan Nentvig SJ, here is one copy online BUT a key portion has been removed. Note in this excellent geographical work, that all the Spanish mines and mining settlements are listed and described separately from the mines of the missions, which are listed WITH the missions as they would be technically the property of each mission under control of the priests as guardians for the Indios whom were legally not better than children.
Rudo Ensayo: A DESCRIPTION OF SONORA AND ARIZONA IN 1764
There are others, but as far as I know none are specifically about Jesuit treasures. Side thing but if memory serves father Polzer wrote an article for Desert mag attacking and ridiculing the very idea of Jesuit treasures, while also admitting to two instances where fathers were "caught" mining.

Roy,

IMHO,What you have written is, mostly, true. That being said, I don't believe it equates to any vast treasures being left behind when the Jesuits were expelled. There were very few cases of Jesuit mines. They were documented and the history of how they were acquired is well known.

Hope all is well,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

IMHO,What you have written is, mostly, true. That being said, I don't believe it equates to any vast treasures being left behind when the Jesuits were expelled. There were very few cases of Jesuit mines. They were documented and the history of how they were acquired is well known.

Hope all is well,

Joe

I have to respectfully disagree with your premise there, for there are more than a 'few' Jesuit mines, they may well be documented but it was more like pulling teeth to get the facts even on a few of them. Plus a great number were considered "of the missions" so in effect are Jesuit mines, but they could always point to the Mission and say it belongs to the Mission, not me. Lt Sylvester Mowry stated he had found documents for quite a few, can't remember the exact number however. Also, while you are judging the bullion produced by the slag (perhaps?) there is clear evidence of more than nominal mining activity - the Santa Rita mine had an estimated 250,000 tons of ore removed when first rediscovered, have not found any estimate on the Salero but several others had quite sizable amounts of ore removed before the Anglos arrived. Even if the ore had only a single ounce of silver per ton, 250,000 tons worth would be a sizable amount of treasure IMHO. I could be wrong on that figure, working from memory but I am certain that it was a large figure.

Also, the famous silver altar service at San Xavier del Bac, worth an estimated $40,000 (1840s dollars) in silver, which remains lost. I would be thrilled to find such a treasure, even if you can only legally get half after the Feds take their share. The solid silver, larger than life size statue of Saint Ignatius wasn't exactly peanuts either, at least to me. Remember that saintly father Kino himself even shipped silver to Jesuit HQ, although some was stolen en route, we have the smoking gun.

I hope all is well with you and that you are not suffering too much from the late winter weather there, heard that a cloud passed over once last week! (Horrors!) We are bracing for a good healthy dose of the nastiest mix of weather starting tomorrow, hope it will be just rain but not counting on that either. Side thing but we have a new member of the 'pack' too, will have to send you a photo sometime, she is quite the little pistol. Give our love to Carolyn and Smoky, <and you of course!> and hope you have a great day tomorrow.
Roy

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Well Joe ?

 

[Holyground]

The Jesuits were the CIA, or Catholic Intelligence Agency. The Franciscans were not. Martin Luther caused quite a stir.

 

[Ryano]

Oroblanco -

The Santa Rita mine “rediscovered” in the early 1800’s was (and still is) a copper mine - which the Spaniards used for minting coins.

https://news.thediggings.com/chino-mine-santa-rita/

Or are you referring to another mine in the Santa Rita’s ?

 

[gollum]

Oroblanco -

The Santa Rita mine “rediscovered” in the early 1800’s was (and still is) a copper mine - which the Spaniards used for minting coins.

https://news.thediggings.com/chino-mine-santa-rita/

Or are you referring to another mine in the Santa Rita’s ?

The most famous Jesuit Mine in the area was written about by Colonel Poston. It spoke of a document found at Tumacacori that said if you stand in the open door of the Mission and look to the SouthEast, you will see a very pointed peak. A mine is there.

Following up on that information a rich ledge of Galena was found that was very high in silver content.

Col. Poston, in his work on Arizona, quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property. It states that standing in the church and looking through the east door towards the mountains, about ten miles distant is seen a sharp picacho or pinnacle, and that near that are the mines worked by the priests. Standing in the old ruined church today and looking through the east door, there is discovered the pinnacle described in the record, and it is the highest point on the ridge through which runs the “Wandering Jew” ledge. The work we uncovered we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits. And somewhere in that hill are doubtless deeper and more extensive working, co-temporary and covered in the same way.

Upon the “Wandering Jew” mine we stripped the top of the ledge a distance of nearly 300 feet between two shafts we were sinking. Our first work on the trench we dug about four feet in depth was in virgin ground, and our excavation exposed the mineral in the ledge, which is a high grade galena, interspersed with gray copper. At the end of about 150 feet we broke into an old working that had been completed much the same as our own, and afterward covered over. First small saplings and boughs of trees had been laid across the trench, which was on a side hill just below the crest of a ridge. The network of boughs and saplings was covered with a thick layer of closely matted twigs, over these was laid a layer of grass, and upon that a layer of dirt. In a very short time after that covering was made, natural causes assimilated its appearance with the adjacent earth, so no one could detect the covered work. We stopped throwing off this old covering when we reached the dump of our own shaft, and made no effort to carry it beyond the dump. Had we sunk the shaft on the vein we should have penetrated the same old working, but we had sunk between two veins and cross-cut both, our object being to cut each away below the old work uncovered in the trench. That work we believe to have been done by the Jesuit missionaries, the ruins of whose old church in the Santa Cruz Valley, at Tumacacori, are visible from the “Wandering Jew” ridge.

Mike

 

[Ryano]

thanks for clearing that up, Mike. I just now noticed Oro made that post 2 years ago.. heh.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco -

The Santa Rita mine “rediscovered” in the early 1800’s was (and still is) a copper mine - which the Spaniards used for minting coins.

https://news.thediggings.com/chino-mine-santa-rita/

Or are you referring to another mine in the Santa Rita’s ?

Sorry for the delay in answering - but your mine is in New Mexico, not the Santa Rita mountain range of southern Arizona. The Santa Rita silver mine is in Arizona not New Mexico. I don't think there is much available online about it. I believe some newspaper clippings were posted about it on this forum quite some time ago, should be able to find them without too much trouble if you are interested or search the online newspaper archives.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Ryano]

Oroblanco, thanks. Big difference between the mining town town in New Mex and the mountains in AZ.