Jesuits in 1838 in the States

[audigger53]

http://hsrd.yahoo.com/RV=1/RE=14676...NvbGQtAA--/RS=^ADAkBZbdOWwFn8Mp8Ssv50jpBJuTFU-[h=3]Louisiana families begin digging into their family history, find they are descendants of slaves sold by Georgetown University[/h]
The Jesuit Priests at Georgetown sold 272 slaves to keep the school open. In my mind that meant that they believed in slavery, even though the slaves were Catholic. Read the article, then think about what changed from the 1500's to 1838. Nothing I can see, they used non Jesuit converts as labor and for making money. Now if I knew when the school was opened by them, we could see the gap from the expulsion in 1767 to when they arrived back in the "New World".

 

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[audigger53]

Copy and past the link into a new window at Yahoo. Then it should work. Also try this one.
News | The Advocate ? Baton Rouge, Louisiana-
This works

 

[Oroblanco]

http://hsrd.yahoo.com/RV=1/RE=14676...NvbGQtAA--/RS=^ADAkBZbdOWwFn8Mp8Ssv50jpBJuTFU-Louisiana families begin digging into their family history, find they are descendants of slaves sold by Georgetown University


The Jesuit Priests at Georgetown sold 272 slaves to keep the school open. In my mind that meant that they believed in slavery, even though the slaves were Catholic. Read the article, then think about what changed from the 1500's to 1838. Nothing I can see, they used non Jesuit converts as labor and for making money. Now if I knew when the school was opened by them, we could see the gap from the expulsion in 1767 to when they arrived back in the "New World".

The Jesuits founded Georgetown University Jan 23, 1789, which we might note is during the time period when the Jesuits were officially "disbanded forever" by explicit order of the Pope. So much for their sworn obedience to the Pope. They soon became the largest slave-owners in Maryland in fact. The Jesuits in French Louisiana province were also found to be owning a large number of slaves when they were expelled by the French in 1764. Yet today we have had Jesuits claiming they never owned any slaves! '

Please do continue.

 

[audigger53]

Here's some of the history.
Georgetown University is the oldest Catholic and Jesuit institution of higher learning in the United States. John Carroll’s founding of Georgetown College coincides with the birth of our nation. In 1789, Carroll secured the deed to 60 acres of land on a hilltop overlooking the village of Georgetown. He was appointed Archbishop of Baltimore in 1808.
Classes began in 1792. Within the first year, attendance grew to more than 40 students, from as far away as the West Indies. In 1817, the school awarded its first two bachelor’s degrees.
So in the "US" they were not recalled but had no knowledge of where the mines were in the Spanish Lands. (My thought)

 

[audigger53]

I have no faith in the goodness of the Jesuits. Other orders have done lots of good for the Tribes in the Southwest. But then the Jesuits were the "Military Arm of the Church". They went with the Armies as they killed and enslaved the Indians, and blessed the soldiers as they killed and raped in the name of God. I'm afraid I am a little biased about this order. Sorry if it bothers any one. Every where they went, they looked for the Glory of the Order more than the Glory of God. IMO.

 

[miboje]

So interesting! Thanks for posting it!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AU, there were two sides to the Jesuit order, the lowly mission Priest who ofte labored under unimaginable conditions and the Executivve side. The mission Priest was expendabble in the service of the order, they were the ones swept up in the expulsion order, te executive ones were not, nor the coadjuters

 

[Oroblanco]

AU, there were two sides to the Jesuit order, the lowly mission Priest who ofte labored under unimaginable conditions and the Executivve side. The mission Priest was expendabble in the service of the order, they were the ones swept up in the expulsion order, te executive ones were not, nor the coadjuters

If memory serves, our mutual amigo Infosponge found records that indeed the coadjutors were also rounded up with the priests, and expelled. Strangely, there are considerably fewer coadjutors on the list of Jesuits rounded up, than should have been present in Mexico at the time. Considering the Jesuits practice in Japan, where a number of attempts were made to hide and remain behind, and/or sneak back in, perhaps we should look for any Jesuits that might have slipped through the 1767 roundup?

I had suspected that coadjutors were the men that actually ran the mines, mills etc and still believe this is mostly true, however it was the priests that were literally acting as 'managers' for all the various enterprises being run at the missions. This is one of the things that we find the padres complaining about in their letters home.

Please do continue;

 

[audigger53]

I believe that there were 3 groups or the priests. Those that operated the "Mule Trail Hiway", those that were in charge of the mining operations, and overseeing the raising of crops for the miners, and those at the "Home Mission" outside of Mexico City. The overseers of the other 2 types/groups. Now the first group, only knew about taking care of the mules between shipments, no knowledge of where the mines actually were located.
The second group hid the gold and silver bullion when warning arrived from the first group. They also hid any evidence of the mines. They were the ones that knew where the "bodies" lay, and they didn't survive the trip home and the questions asked by the Spanish questioners. The third group doesn't have any idea where the actual mines and missions were that were shipping the bullion home. They would have been more like accountants (Bean Counters) .
This is just what I believe using "Human Nature" as a guide. If you think of it as a large Corporation. The "Bean Counters" have no idea of the actual requirements of keeping the customers happy, just the "Bottom Line".

 

[weregolf]

Nice theory Au, looks some how they can take and hide the metal.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Werewolf, my friend, this they did at Tayopa and some collecting misions as well as the Caballo mtns depositories

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

True Oro mi buddy, the very idea of the coajutor was to hide Jesuit activiess. Some were rounded up, others presomably not.

 

[audigger53]

Some of the shipments that were in progress, they just dumped the bars off the trail and left them there. I remember the story but not the year other than in the 50's (I was younger then.LOL) about the guy that found a stack of bars just setting in the desert North of Tuacacori. 75-80% gold the rest copper and a little silver. Just a pile of brownish bars setting on the ground. Why couldn't that happen to me?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cause AU !!

Incidentally that happend more often than most realize, I have several examples. Before the Indians learned, they would often attack a mule train then just casually discard the bars as worthless - which in many ways they were, since they had no store to buy things, a knife was worth more, practical wise, than a hundred bars.

 

[sdcfia]

I believe that there were 3 groups or the priests. Those that operated the "Mule Trail Hiway", those that were in charge of the mining operations, and overseeing the raising of crops for the miners, and those at the "Home Mission" outside of Mexico City. The overseers of the other 2 types/groups. Now the first group, only knew about taking care of the mules between shipments, no knowledge of where the mines actually were located.
The second group hid the gold and silver bullion when warning arrived from the first group. They also hid any evidence of the mines. They were the ones that knew where the "bodies" lay, and they didn't survive the trip home and the questions asked by the Spanish questioners. The third group doesn't have any idea where the actual mines and missions were that were shipping the bullion home. They would have been more like accountants (Bean Counters) .
This is just what I believe using "Human Nature" as a guide. If you think of it as a large Corporation. The "Bean Counters" have no idea of the actual requirements of keeping the customers happy, just the "Bottom Line".

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume the various rumors of rich Jesuit mines and vast precious metals hoards in Arizona are true. This is a stretch for me, since I don't support these types of treasure magazine stories - but let's look at the situation for a moment as if they are true.

The alleged mines and caches are considered "lost" because when the expulsion came down, the brothers who were in the know left the scene and were unable to retain the knowledge of where all the loot was located. The mines/caches were masterfully hidden prior to abandonment, but the details of "where they were" evaporated due to any number of explanations, leaving numerous mondo-rich mines and perhaps tons of bullion caches (most logically in the mines) covered up ... somewhere. Audigger53, you offer support to this scenario based on a "bottoms up" chain of command for the alleged mines. I have to strongly disagree, and, based on the Jesuits' reputations, have to assume that any situation involving rich illegal gold mines was run from the "top down" - the top being all the way back home in Europe.

1. If these rumors of "fabulously rich illegal mines" were true, then the most important details of the operations would have obviously been the locations of the mines. The Jesuits, being the so-called "smartest guys in the room", the "navy seals of their day", etc., would immediately have recognized the importance of their newly discovered mines and, being world-class military strategists and logistics experts, would certainly have planned for all contingencies and quickly documented the coordinates of the mines and sent the information back home. They would have secured this information "just in case" the illegality of their actions came back to haunt them later and they needed to hide their "secret illegal mines." That's what smart guys do when they're acting illegally. [I still find it hard to believe they could have operated rich gold mines under the noses of the Spanish for years, but that's another problem we'll ignore here]

2. How could the Jesuits accurately record the mines' locations? This was the Age of Enlightenment after all, and the Jesuits arguably had access to the best educations and the best cutting-edge technologies of the day - not to mention the possibility of proprietary ancient records secreted in the Vatican's libraries. Anyone who is aware of the 16th century accomplishments in Europe, the education available to the elite, and the enlightened technology in use at the time (a stroll through the Galileo Museum in Florence will soon convince you of this) will realize that sophisticated science may well have been transferable even to the uncharted frontiers of the New World - at least as far as celestial navigation is concerned.

How could highly accurate lat/long coordinates be obtained? The Romans were able to determine latitude (north or south angular deviation from the equator) to about 1/4 degree, ~20 miles+/-. On dry land with the very best instruments and trained observers from the Renaissance era, results matching the accuracy limits of the human eye of about one minute of arc were theoretically possible and probably attainable, ~1 mile+/-. Pretty good. But what about longitude?

The determination of longitude is all about time - east/west angular (degrees, aka hours, minutes and seconds) deviation from an arbitrary base point on the globe (Greenwich Observatory in England nowadays, but many other places before). Here's where the resources available to the Jesuits and other elites through history affect this argument. I won't get lengthy here (I can though), but it seems quite likely that the Vatican and other elites had access to technology and data originating from the Giza pyramid that allowed accurate determination of longitude based on observations of celestial objects in the earth's ecliptic - not polar - plane. Accuracy of ~1 mile+/- would theoretically be obtainable with proper instruments. This too is good - allowing for lat/long coordinates both falling within a one-mile radius circle on land.

3. How could the Jesuits securely report the mines' locations to their superiors? This is probably the easiest part. Whoever calculated the mines' coordinates - early in the mines' histories of course - could have either carried the information home with him, or sent it in a coded form. Any number of code techniques could have been used to provide secret information within normal-appearing boring reports, letters, etc. Duck soup for the smartest guys in the world, right? Then it's business as usual. Work the mines, cache the bullion, ship it home now and then, and if the SHTF, cover up the mines and leave them behind to hopefully reopen later. Makes more sense than getting caught with your pants down and losing the locations of these rich mines and fabulous hoards due to being stupid and unprepared.

Of course, my speculation counters the "Jesuits lost their own mines" silliness, but it doesn't answer the big question - why are the mines/caches still lost? Well, there are two more thoughts to consider. First, why haven't the Jesuits reclaimed these fabulous mines and caches? Surely, the smartest guys in the world didn't "lose" them. If they were "illegal gains" to start with, fine - set up dummy corporations of "innocents" to find and exploit them for you. After all, money is money, and the Catholic Orders live on money too, don't they? Or ... thought two: the fabulous mines/caches live in treasure magazines only and there is nothing worthy of recovering in reality. As I've argued before, the Jesuits likely did modest silver mining in Arizona in order to be able to create some church bling and have a little pocket money for trade items, but the well-known legends are completely overblown and essentially baseless. Or, to prop up the legends, I guess we can just assume the Jesuits were dummies.

 

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

For me, each of your points is spot on. Very good post.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

For me, each of your points is spot on. Very good post.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks, Joe. I know it's not a popular stance to doubt the legends, but that's where the evidence and logic lead me.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oops, not so fastSDC my friend. whilt I liked your post I feel that I have to point out several things. First Longetude is strictly 'time'.There was no effective time piece unti the later 1800's. Prior to that they had to calculate time by a noon day shot or reading.in which the height of the sun was est9mated by it's shotest length on a prepared area. similar to a 'U' shaped pattern, with the height was measured by the position, on the arc. A not very accurate thingie, sunject to precise timing

On the matter of Latitude they anly had astrobabs' which were dependent again upon the author, not very precise, which is why the search for a better system was inaugerated culminating with the invention of the sextant and the octant.

Now move that to the Mexican barrancas which are some of the most rugged on the Planet, since the ones we are concerned with are also subject to the Hurricanes and their subsequent erosion whih torential rain and you have a situation in which a mine can disappear over night .

Example of ths barranca country ---- A sigting is that accurate for those times , in this type of country, subject to change with every tropical storm or huricane and you see where the difficulty lies. This ranch is built on top of the piie of Adobe ruins of the headquarters up at Tayopa

Yes, mine can be lost. even the tailings will blend in.

 

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

While the maps of the Jesuits are a marvel for their time and place, they are known to have many inaccuracy's. That would, I believe, include Father Kino's maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume the various rumors of rich Jesuit mines and vast precious metals hoards in Arizona are true. This is a stretch for me, since I don't support these types of treasure magazine stories - but let's look at the situation for a moment as if they are true.

The alleged mines and caches are considered "lost" because when the expulsion came down, the brothers who were in the know left the scene and were unable to retain the knowledge of where all the loot was located. The mines/caches were masterfully hidden prior to abandonment, but the details of "where they were" evaporated due to any number of explanations, leaving numerous mondo-rich mines and perhaps tons of bullion caches (most logically in the mines) covered up ... somewhere. Audigger53, you offer support to this scenario based on a "bottoms up" chain of command for the alleged mines. I have to strongly disagree, and, based on the Jesuits' reputations, have to assume that any situation involving rich illegal gold mines was run from the "top down" - the top being all the way back home in Europe.

Your assumption here, while appearing logical and sound, is actually not supported by the history. Look at the French Jesuit operations for parallels - even in France the superiors were not aware of the business enterprises being carried on on in the French colonies, or at least they stated as much in court. Remember the missions were supposed to become self-supporting, and to be generating income, it certainly looks like the padres were very much given a free hand for this goal.

SDCFIA also wrote

1. If these rumors of "fabulously rich illegal mines" were true,..<snip>

You are now adding descriptive terms "fabulously rich" and "illegal" as well. Based on what we have found, it appears that most if not all of the mines being run by the padres, were technically the property of the missions. As the Spanish were Catholic, this would be tantamount to heresy to question the business operations of the missions. Also, the missions with lost mines are located in what was the 'wild frontier' where very few Spanish ventured. The definition of "fabulously rich" mines is certainly different from person to person. I have seen mines listed for sale described that way, and had assays with a little over an ounce of gold per ton. Would you consider that fabulously rich?

SDCFIA also wrote

2. How could the Jesuits accurately record the mines' locations? This was the Age of Enlightenment after all,...<snip>

Why would they have any need to 'record' their mine locations out on the wild frontier, where they ruled as little kings or barons, so to speak? All of the Indians domains, were really theirs to rule after all. The only cases we know of where Jesuits recorded claims happens to be where there were also a fair number of Spanish colonists, as at Pozos. In that case they certainly recorded their claims in much the same way the Spanish did.

SDCFIA also wrote

3. How could the Jesuits securely report the mines' locations to their superiors? <snip>

See above, we do not know that the padres reported the mines locations to their superiors at all.

SDCFIA also wrote

Of course, my speculation counters the "Jesuits lost their own mines" silliness, but it doesn't answer the big question - why are the mines/caches still lost? <snip>. Or, to prop up the legends, I guess we can just assume the Jesuits were dummies.

Your speculation is just that - speculation. We do not know that the Jesuits "lost" the mine locations at all. We can only surmise that they have indeed lost them. In fact based on the way the Jesuits were expelled, it certainly appears that the hiding of the mines, and any bullion, was done NOT by the padres but by "their" faithful Indians of the missions themselves. This is even a matter of record as at San Xavier del Bac, where it was the local Indians that concealed the impressive silver items, and the Indians that brought these back out when the Jesuits returned, and again hid them when the Jesuits again left. So if it was the Indians that hid these things, how would the padres know where treasures were hidden? If you look at the span of time involved, and consider the probability that the exact locations are probably not recorded in archives, or as bad, recorded in such a way that we can not make sense of it today, there is nothing odd about it that the Jesuits of today APPEAR to not know where the mines, and any caches are located. Remember there was a span of time of some forty years between the Jesuits expulsion and their being 'rehabilitated' so plenty of time for the mission padres to have died off, or simply forgotten locations. You seem to try to apply black and white logic and ignore the evidence; if there really is nothing to these "stories" of lost mines and treasures, why then have we had a regular parade of Jesuits here on a treasure forum, always trying to discourage anyone from searching?


If you are still so filled with doubts, why not pay a visit to the mission at San Xavier del Bac, and take a look at the smelter slag that is built into the mission walls? You could then also stop at Tumacacori and see the same kind of slag built into those mission walls as well. Then perhaps a stop at Guevavi, where there are still a few mounds of smelter slag about. Perhaps a visit to the Wandering Jew mine, or the Salero or a half dozen others, which are NOT lost today, might help convince you that the 'stories' of lost mines are certainly not all fictional. Then again, maybe not? Maybe you can see all these things and still think there is nothing to it, it is all to make millions from the sales of treasure stories to magazines, that are paying something like three cents a word after all.