Jesuit Symbols?

[Oroblanco]

I have seen arguments on this topic for a long time now, but really I would like to know exactly what makes a symbol or carving Jesuit, and NOT simply Catholic, or Franciscan, Dominican, Augustinian etc? Even some of the Franciscan built mission churches have symbols that we would think are Jesuit, like I H S etc. Thanks in advance.

 

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[gollum]

I have seen arguments on this topic for a long time now, but really I would like to know exactly what makes a symbol or carving Jesuit, and NOT simply Catholic, or Franciscan, Dominican, Augustinian etc? Even some of the Franciscan built mission churches have symbols that we would think are Jesuit, like I H S etc. Thanks in advance.

Roy,

Not one person I know has claimed to understand more than a tiny bit of Jesuit Symbolism (and I know most of the best.......including Jesuit Historians). I have figured out dribs and drabs here and there based on things others have found (i.e. Ron Quinn and Chuck Kenworthy). The reason I give a high percentage that their finds are Jesuit is for several reasons:

1. On the big flat rock next to the Mayan Number Rock the symbol of a cross above a heart is carved. A known Jesuit Symbol
2. On all his gold bars the symbol of a cross and "V" is present
3. Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 silver bars (almost) within a stone's throw of Quinn's Cache. Every one of his ingots displayed a cross and "V" as well as "PADRE SAETA 1695" and as we all know Father Javier Saeta SJ was martyred in a Pima Uprising in 1695. We are guessing the two are related.

So, working backwards, we know that there were Jesuits working in the Yucatan Peninsula with the remnants of the Mayan Civilization prior to 1695. They arrived there about 1620. Using the Padre Saeta Martyr date of 1695, we know the silver hoard was buried sometime after. We can only guess that after Father Saeta's Death, the Church buried the wealth of Caborca? or something of the like it in this place far from there. We began calling them "Martyr Caches". If we could only find one named for Father Tello who was martyred in 1751, we could say for certain. I have never seen an ingot with Father Tello's name cast into it.

So, in this case, some wise person who was familiar with the system the Mayans used for counting, used this system to calculate the lengths of the parts of the cross that was used to hide the gold bars at each 90 degree angle of the cross. Not a thing your average Spaniard could figure out. Lucky for us, one of Ron's partners was an engineer with a knack for history (how they figured the lines and dots were Mayan Numbers). Now, maybe this was the only time something like this was used to hide treasure, but the common thing to many Jesuit games and quizzes are Mathematics of one sort or another.

Another thing that I have said a million times is that you may know what a certain symbol, number, or word would mean to a Spaniard, but the Spaniards were who the Jesuits were hiding their wealth from. They would NEVER use a symbol the Spanish would understand..........unless it meant something completely different to a Jesuit.


Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

They use the same system and they are all catholic. The Jesuits use their signature hat and we're probably the smarter of the bunch. There is the obvious for everyone to see and then the hidden for those who have learned how to see it. It's easier to say the work of the preist. Covers all of them that way.

 

[gollum]

They use the same system and they are all catholic. The Jesuits use their signature hat and we're probably the smarter of the bunch. There is the obvious for everyone to see and then the hidden for those who have learned how to see it. It's easier to say the work of the preist. Covers all of them that way.

Bob,

If you had figured out the "Jesuit Code", you would be posting from your mansion in Tahiti. I promise you that you have not.

For you to say that "we're the smarter of the bunch" just shows that you have no idea who the Jesuits are! They discovered the Earth Sciences we know today as Geology, Geography, and many others. They were the premier Cryptographers and Cartographers going back to the 16th Century. It typically takes between 23 and 26 years from the time a Jesuit takes his initial vows to when he makes his final vows. The Jesuit Order weaved their way into almost every royal family in Europe. They were the most powerful order of the Catholic Church from their inception in 1540 until their suppression in 1767. I have studied the Order for about 25 years, and I can tell you that they had mines, they had the most profitable businesses in the New World, they owned most of the slaves in South America, they had so much wealth they had planned to buy Bolivia and turn it into a Jesuit Enclave, they had the largest flocks of sheep, herds of cattle and horses............and while doing all that, managed to Preach to the masses and covert tens of thousands of Indians to Catholicism, and make expeditions to add to the known world (Kino discovered that California was not an island which changed every map on Earth).


I'm smarter than your average bear, but what I can't tell you is if they had a master plan for hiding treasure, if it was individual to the person doing the hiding, or how they relayed that information back to Rome. I know some, but not a lot.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks for the replies, however the fact remains that unless you witnessed a Jesuit making these symbols, we can not know that they were not made by priests or lay brothers from other Orders.

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Amigos

For me its interesting in seeing obsession that the Jesuits as the usual suspects in case of hiding treasure. While I cannot speak for Mexico and central America.

I know other religious orders involved themselves in mining. In South America there was 7 key historic gold mining areas that the Colonial Spanish was engaged in mining gold. One was in Northern Peru. The king of Spain gave grants called "Ecomindas" (Pardon if my spelling is a little off ) Part of the deal in the territory you was given you had to develop the areas. and exploitation of resources and people while instructing the locals on the Catholic Religion.

The following document was of Ecomindas run by an order ( Not Jesuit) Showing plan of gold mining operations such as the Dominican order which was first catholic order to come to Peru. The Dominican Order stayed out of political intrigues, Paid their taxes and quietly worked away without operating like an monopoly. They operated virtually unmolested right up until the end of Spanish occupation of Peru.



Their original center of operations was in the city of Sana founded in 1563. With various religious orders such as Augustinians and Franciscan However the city in 1686 was Sacked by the pirate Edward Davies who took 7 days to loot Sana However in 1720 the city of Sana was destroyed by a flood and the convents and churches was abandoned and the orders moved to Milaflores . Their Church in Northern Peru Pura was looted in 1817. It took 2 days to strip loot from the church by 80 men.

In short the Dominican and Augustinian orders had 257 years of virtually uninterpreted wealth generation through sugar gold and silvers mining and agricultural activities. Much of their wealth road off the back of mineral wealth sent through northern Peru down to the Lima mint in which the gold and silver coinage was dispatched through Panama back to Spain.

That cash cow although gold and production had been waning for last 50 years prior to 1820 was still flowing until the Orders came under real threat in 1820 in the War of liberation. The raid in 1817 really frightened these orders that had become very wealthy from this trade. The Jesuits had tried to establish themselves in 1814 but the revolution ended any significant progress.

My apologies I drifted off a little.

Gollum and Oroblanco make some excellent points. A lost of symbols in countryside are trail markers for roads and wells etc... It is easy for many people to become obsessed with markers making assumptions on their meaning some times taking the interpretation out of context.

The Jesuit like all orders while their main goal was to Evangelize the nation populations in their missions they still needed an income like all other orders. They got wealthy like the other orders. Unfortunately they paid the price by openly questioning the Spanish Crowns right to the Americas? And preach the concept of religious theocracy without a King for head of state.

Kanacki

 

[Dirt1955]

Bob,

If you had figured out the "Jesuit Code", you would be posting from your mansion in Tahiti. I promise you that you have not.

For you to say that "we're the smarter of the bunch" just shows that you have no idea who the Jesuits are! They discovered the Earth Sciences we know today as Geology, Geography, and many others. They were the premier Cryptographers and Cartographers going back to the 16th Century. It typically takes between 23 and 26 years from the time a Jesuit takes his initial vows to when he makes his final vows. The Jesuit Order weaved their way into almost every royal family in Europe. They were the most powerful order of the Catholic Church from their inception in 1540 until their suppression in 1767. I have studied the Order for about 25 years, and I can tell you that they had mines, they had the most profitable businesses in the New World, they owned most of the slaves in South America, they had so much wealth they had planned to buy Bolivia and turn it into a Jesuit Enclave, they had the largest flocks of sheep, herds of cattle and horses............and while doing all that, managed to Preach to the masses and covert tens of thousands of Indians to Catholicism, and make expeditions to add to the known world (Kino discovered that California was not an island which changed every map on Earth).


I'm smarter than your average bear, but what I can't tell you is if they had a master plan for hiding treasure, if it was individual to the person doing the hiding, or how they relayed that information back to Rome. I know some, but not a lot.

Mike

Mike, a lot of similarities between the Jesuits and Templar’s. Both sanctioned by the Church of Rome. Both smart, powerful, industrious and wealthy. Ultimately the wealth became their collective undoing. I am a firm believer both Orders we’re smarter than those that sought to destroy them. Thus, they were able to secret a great deal of their wealth. Thus the legends are born. You are spot in in your analysis of the Jesuits. Thanks for starting this thread.

 

[gollum]

Thanks for the replies, however the fact remains that unless you witnessed a Jesuit making these symbols, we can not know that they were not made by priests or lay brothers from other Orders.

Soooooooo....................you're telling me that a Franciscan or Dominican would have cast 1028 silver bars bearing the name and date of a martyred Jesuit? That idea of yours seems highly dubious to me! LOL

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Well I see that I made a mistake. Well auto correction did. That was supposed to say they were the smarter of the bunch. I don't consider myself smart just blessed. Im far from ordinary by any means. Who needs a mansion Mike? I own my site. Some 80+acres. I don't require all those material things just space. But this is where I was guided too. I study stones. They are a permanent record. Most of the time people only see the obvious. That is what they wanted you to see. I totally agree with you on who they were and what they accomplished . You did leave out the darker part of the order. They also dealt with darker side. In order to fight against evil you most know them. To know you do have power over them. That is why you see both Good and Evil features used on these sites. I promise you that I can teach you something new. I don't know all the answers. I've never claimed I did. I know you have done a great deal of research of the subject. I've enjoyed the passion you put into it. I think we all have our own strengths. You have found yours for sure. Now I know that there were many orders of priest in this country. With that being said. Could all these orders have a secret knowledge? A knowledge passed down through history and Known only a select group. I to think that the Knights Templars knew this. Maybe the code is of God. I call it the God Code. All codes can be broken if there is enough information. Seeing the same thing over and over. We can see a pattern. This is where my strength comes to play. I have a large collection of stones. There is so much more to the system than a few marks on stone. How much time is needed depends on how well you can read what there. I will be back in the Santa Clarita area at the end of july. I would like to meet you and share with you some of my work. I will show you from stones in your area. I could bring some that are crystals and show you their work in many other type stones work. They used glass ,steel, pottery, china and just about anything that they had. So you know their history and I know their work. Are you up to it?

 

[Oroblanco]

Soooooooo....................you're telling me that a Franciscan or Dominican would have cast 1028 silver bars bearing the name and date of a martyred Jesuit? That idea of yours seems highly dubious to me! LOL

Mike

Why would Franciscans set up a statue to the Jesuit saint Xavier in the Franciscan mission San Xavier del Bac? They were rivals not enemies.

As to who/whom cast those silver bars, we really can't know at this point. They could be the genuine article, stamped with the name of a Jesuit martyr, or they could be modern fakes. I am not an expert on how to tell that.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

nothing to do with much here but this is interesting

 

[sdcfia]

Why would Franciscans set up a statue to the Jesuit saint Xavier in the Franciscan mission San Xavier del Bac? They were rivals not enemies.

As to who/whom cast those silver bars, we really can't know at this point. They could be the genuine article, stamped with the name of a Jesuit martyr, or they could be modern fakes. I am not an expert on how to tell that.

Modern technology is capable of revealing fraud. https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=20813474

 

[gollum]

Why would Franciscans set up a statue to the Jesuit saint Xavier in the Franciscan mission San Xavier del Bac? They were rivals not enemies.

As to who/whom cast those silver bars, we really can't know at this point. They could be the genuine article, stamped with the name of a Jesuit martyr, or they could be modern fakes. I am not an expert on how to tell that.

Roy,

San Javier Del Bac was a Mission first founded by Eusebio Kino in the 1690s. They built it as a mission in 1756. The Franciscans came in 1783 after the Jesuit Suppression of 1767, and built the actual Church.

So....founded by a Jesuit.........first built as Jesuit Mission...........I guess the Franciscans just kept the statue and name because it was already there. If you notice, the Jesuits were all gone by 1768, but yet all of their missions still (and have always) kept the Jesuit names.


..................soooooooooo, lets see.......... you are saying that someone cast over a ton of FAKE silver bars? ...........and since they are so close to Ron Quinn's find and bear the same symbolism, the 82 pounds of gold bars must be faked as well? In 1990, silver was about $5 an ounce. That would have meant an investment of about $125K and about $500K for the gold. Since the dig was secret, they had to smelt the bars, and only got silver price for them. Lot of work for no profit Mostly kept a secret at the time......so no fame. Ron and his crew only got spot gold for the 82 pounds. No profit there. Not really seeing your theory working out.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

San Javier Del Bac was a Mission first founded by Eusebio Kino in the 1690s. They built it as a mission in 1756. The Franciscans came in 1783 after the Jesuit Suppression of 1767, and built the actual Church.

So....founded by a Jesuit.........first built as Jesuit Mission...........I guess the Franciscans just kept the statue and name because it was already there. If you notice, the Jesuits were all gone by 1768, but yet all of their missions still (and have always) kept the Jesuit names.


..................soooooooooo, lets see.......... you are saying that someone cast over a ton of FAKE silver bars? ...........and since they are so close to Ron Quinn's find and bear the same symbolism, the 82 pounds of gold bars must be faked as well? In 1990, silver was about $5 an ounce. That would have meant an investment of about $125K and about $500K for the gold. Since the dig was secret, they had to smelt the bars, and only got silver price for them. Lot of work for no profit Mostly kept a secret at the time......so no fame. Ron and his crew only got spot gold for the 82 pounds. No profit there. Not really seeing your theory working out.

Mike

Two things stand out from your post here Mike. One, you are misunderstanding what I posted, I am NOT taking the position that those alleged silver bars and alleged gold bars ARE FAKES. Don't put words in my mouth please.

Secondly, you appear to be putting a great deal of your trust in these stories. Were you there? Did you get a cut of the proceeds? How can you be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your sources are telling you the gospel truth? Don't take it the wrong way but I don't take stories like this at face value.

My point was that I sure do NOT know if those bars (seen in the photos) are real Jesuit-mined-and-smelted bars or modern fakes. I do not know how to tell without getting the assistance of some experts, and I for one certainly can NOT tell from any photos. Surely you are NOT taking the position that you could never be hoodwinked by a clever fraud?

Side point but the Franciscans arrived circa 1768, not 1783. At first they were not to handle the "temporalities" of the missions (and Indians by extension) but Galvez ordered them to take over all of the business affairs in 1769.

 

[gollum]

Two things stand out from your post here Mike. One, you are misunderstanding what I posted, I am NOT taking the position that those alleged silver bars and alleged gold bars ARE FAKES. Don't put words in my mouth please.

Secondly, you appear to be putting a great deal of your trust in these stories. Were you there? Did you get a cut of the proceeds? How can you be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your sources are telling you the gospel truth? Don't take it the wrong way but I don't take stories like this at face value.

My point was that I sure do NOT know if those bars (seen in the photos) are real Jesuit-mined-and-smelted bars or modern fakes. I do not know how to tell without getting the assistance of some experts, and I for one certainly can NOT tell from any photos. Surely you are NOT taking the position that you could never be hoodwinked by a clever fraud?

Side point but the Franciscans arrived circa 1768, not 1783. At first they were not to handle the "temporalities" of the missions (and Indians by extension) but Galvez ordered them to take over all of the business affairs in 1769.

First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly. Ron Quinn (RIP) didn't have the money to fake half a milliion dollars worth of gold bars. Chuck Kenworthy(RIP) would not have spent that kind of money to fake anything. Besides. If he would have bought a ton of silver, then mysteriously found a ton of silver bars, MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE NOTICED. And in neither case did they receive antique Jesuit Ingot historical value. They got spot prices for both gold and silver. The gold cache was found several years before the silver cache.

Second: I used the date 1783 for San Xavier Del Bac Mission, because on the San Xavier Del Bac Mission Website (under the HISTORY Subsection), it says the building of the new church began in 1783:

http://www.sanxaviermission.org/History.html

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly.

What leverage did you have with these fellows that would convince them to reveal the "real truth" about these stories to you? No offense intended, we all know you're a well-informed guy. However, most humans tend to lie about stuff in their lives, especially if it benefits them in any way. If I seem a little skeptical, maybe I came across my attitude honestly. Here are a few examples from just my lifetime. Millions of people believed these birds implicitly too, and many still want to. Go figure.

“It was a lone gunman.” Warren Report

“We are not about to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.” Johnson

“No one in the White House staff … was involved.” Nixon

“In spite of the wildly speculative and false stories of arms for hostages and alleged ransom payments, we did not, repeat, did not, trade weapons or anything else for hostages. Nor will we.” Reagan

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” Clinton

“We found the weapons of mass destruction [in Iraq]. We found biological laboratories.” Bush

“If you like the [health care] plan you have, you can keep it.” Obama

 

[Oroblanco]

First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly. Ron Quinn (RIP) didn't have the money to fake half a milliion dollars worth of gold bars. Chuck Kenworthy(RIP) would not have spent that kind of money to fake anything. Besides. If he would have bought a ton of silver, then mysteriously found a ton of silver bars, MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE NOTICED. And in neither case did they receive antique Jesuit Ingot historical value. They got spot prices for both gold and silver. The gold cache was found several years before the silver cache.

Second: I used the date 1783 for San Xavier Del Bac Mission, because on the San Xavier Del Bac Mission Website (under the HISTORY Subsection), it says the building of the new church began in 1783:

http://www.sanxaviermission.org/History.html

Mike

Thanks for explaining for me. I wish I could have your confidence in these guys. I have never met a real estate developer that I could trust at all. Plus we know that Chuck Kenworthy had been involved in hunting sunken treasure - so even if the bars are legit, they could have been retrieved from a sunken wreck, and later shown as if they were found on dry land. Maybe I have just run into one too many BS artists and can't believe things even when they are right in front of me.

 

[gollum]

Thanks for explaining for me. I wish I could have your confidence in these guys. I have never met a real estate developer that I could trust at all. Plus we know that Chuck Kenworthy had been involved in hunting sunken treasure - so even if the bars are legit, they could have been retrieved from a sunken wreck, and later shown as if they were found on dry land. Maybe I have just run into one too many BS artists and can't believe things even when they are right in front of me.

JEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZUSSSSSSSSSS Roy!

If you knew about Chuck's Shipwreck adventure in Florida, you would know that he got no relics. Only coins. Also, of all the shipwrecks EVER salvaged, there has NEVER been an ingot like any of those recovered. Silver ingots were typically 50 to 80 pounds. I refer you to either of two books: 1. "Spanish Treasure Bars of New Worlds Shipwrecks" 2. Christie's Auction House, Auction Catalog of June 14-15 1988 titled "Gold and Silver of the Atocha and Santa Margarita". Also, ever see a treasure bar in Florida Waters attributed to a Jesuit Priest from a Mission on the Sea of Cortez? Not likely. You are REALLY reaching for this theory Roy!

While Chuck might have had a drinking problem, he wasn't a liar. He was already worth tens of millions from SoCal Real Estate before he ever hunted his first treasure. Before he began, he approached Dr. Lambert Dolphin, who at the time, was head physicist at SRI (Stanford Research Institute), and widely known as the Father of Modern Ground Penetrating Radar. He told Lambert that he wanted to approach Treasure Hunting in a COMPLETELY scientific way. So, Lambert gathered a bunch of SRI Scientists, and Chuck paid for them to travel to different places all over the world to hunt various treasures. To this day, Lambert will never say a bad word about Chuck. Look at Lambert's Old Website:

Chapter Five of the True Story of the C&RPL

.....................also, its common just sense. Buy a ton of silver bullion. Smelt it and cast it into silver ingots with the SAETA info. Re-smelt it back into regular silver bullion and sell it for Silver Spot. That would be stupid. Chuck Kenworthy was not a stupid man.

....................also, same common sense for Ron Quinn. Spend half a million dollars to buy gold bullion (Ron could not have afforded that to begin with). Smelt it and cast it into Jesuit looking gold ingots. Then, sell them for spot gold. A lot of trouble for nothing.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike, assuming the story is 100% true, we still can not KNOW who made those ingots and/or who buried them. Do you see that? Kenworthy and Quinn could have been "victims" of an expensive "spoof" OR the bars could have been made by Spaniards honoring the missionaries or or or or or there are multiple possibilities we can NOT know what the situation was. We simply were not there when they were made or buried and have no documentary proof that might help. Jezus indeed.

 

[gollum]

Mike, assuming the story is 100% true, we still can not KNOW who made those ingots and/or who buried them. Do you see that? Kenworthy and Quinn could have been "victims" of an expensive "spoof" OR the bars could have been made by Spaniards honoring the missionaries or or or or or there are multiple possibilities we can NOT know what the situation was. We simply were not there when they were made or buried and have no documentary proof that might help. Jezus indeed.

While there is no documentary evidence, we can make a very good estimation based on the bars themselves. "An expensive spoof" is just ignorance. Why don't you fork out $625,000 and spoof me with gold and silver ingots? I would REALLY appreciate it! If Spaniards had made the bars HONORING the Jesuits (and in 1028 cases one specific Jesuit)....................I can't even finish the sentence it is so ludicrous. As mercenary as the Catholic Church is I can hardly imagine a Catholic Order buried the two hoards as a "Martyr Cache". I think that if it were a "Martyr Cache", they wouldn't have left clues (Mayan Numbers) as to how to find it. I think the best guess is that they were moving the hoard North when something happened and they had to hide everything. They would have needed a few days time to hide that. Maybe they got word that word of their shipment had gotten out, and they were being chased. Horses move much faster than loaded mules. Same thing happened in the Sierra Pinta Mountains. A large hoard of silver was (supposed) to have been transported to Baja via the Northern Route (around the Northern end of the Sea of Cortez). They saw Indians coming across the desert after them, so they went up some draw in the Sierra Pintas and dumped the load in a gully, then pushed rocks and dirt over it. Some of the Indian Guides got away, but the Fathers were killed and the hoard lost to time. Until many years later, when some of the guides talked.

Mike