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  1. #31

    Dec 2012
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    nothing to do with much here but this is interesting
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    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  2. #32
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Why would Franciscans set up a statue to the Jesuit saint Xavier in the Franciscan mission San Xavier del Bac? They were rivals not enemies.

    As to who/whom cast those silver bars, we really can't know at this point. They could be the genuine article, stamped with the name of a Jesuit martyr, or they could be modern fakes. I am not an expert on how to tell that.

    Modern technology is capable of revealing fraud. https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=20813474
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Why would Franciscans set up a statue to the Jesuit saint Xavier in the Franciscan mission San Xavier del Bac? They were rivals not enemies.

    As to who/whom cast those silver bars, we really can't know at this point. They could be the genuine article, stamped with the name of a Jesuit martyr, or they could be modern fakes. I am not an expert on how to tell that.

    Roy,

    San Javier Del Bac was a Mission first founded by Eusebio Kino in the 1690s. They built it as a mission in 1756. The Franciscans came in 1783 after the Jesuit Suppression of 1767, and built the actual Church.

    So....founded by a Jesuit.........first built as Jesuit Mission...........I guess the Franciscans just kept the statue and name because it was already there. If you notice, the Jesuits were all gone by 1768, but yet all of their missions still (and have always) kept the Jesuit names.


    ..................soooooooooo, lets see.......... you are saying that someone cast over a ton of FAKE silver bars? ...........and since they are so close to Ron Quinn's find and bear the same symbolism, the 82 pounds of gold bars must be faked as well? In 1990, silver was about $5 an ounce. That would have meant an investment of about $125K and about $500K for the gold. Since the dig was secret, they had to smelt the bars, and only got silver price for them. Lot of work for no profit Mostly kept a secret at the time......so no fame. Ron and his crew only got spot gold for the 82 pounds. No profit there. Not really seeing your theory working out.

    Mike
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Roy,

    San Javier Del Bac was a Mission first founded by Eusebio Kino in the 1690s. They built it as a mission in 1756. The Franciscans came in 1783 after the Jesuit Suppression of 1767, and built the actual Church.

    So....founded by a Jesuit.........first built as Jesuit Mission...........I guess the Franciscans just kept the statue and name because it was already there. If you notice, the Jesuits were all gone by 1768, but yet all of their missions still (and have always) kept the Jesuit names.


    ..................soooooooooo, lets see.......... you are saying that someone cast over a ton of FAKE silver bars? ...........and since they are so close to Ron Quinn's find and bear the same symbolism, the 82 pounds of gold bars must be faked as well? In 1990, silver was about $5 an ounce. That would have meant an investment of about $125K and about $500K for the gold. Since the dig was secret, they had to smelt the bars, and only got silver price for them. Lot of work for no profit Mostly kept a secret at the time......so no fame. Ron and his crew only got spot gold for the 82 pounds. No profit there. Not really seeing your theory working out.

    Mike
    Two things stand out from your post here Mike. One, you are misunderstanding what I posted, I am NOT taking the position that those alleged silver bars and alleged gold bars ARE FAKES. Don't put words in my mouth please.

    Secondly, you appear to be putting a great deal of your trust in these stories. Were you there? Did you get a cut of the proceeds? How can you be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your sources are telling you the gospel truth? Don't take it the wrong way but I don't take stories like this at face value.

    My point was that I sure do NOT know if those bars (seen in the photos) are real Jesuit-mined-and-smelted bars or modern fakes. I do not know how to tell without getting the assistance of some experts, and I for one certainly can NOT tell from any photos. Surely you are NOT taking the position that you could never be hoodwinked by a clever fraud?

    Side point but the Franciscans arrived circa 1768, not 1783. At first they were not to handle the "temporalities" of the missions (and Indians by extension) but Galvez ordered them to take over all of the business affairs in 1769.

    Last edited by Oroblanco; Jun 28, 2019 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Correction
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  5. #35
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Two things stand out from your post here Mike. One, you are misunderstanding what I posted, I am NOT taking the position that those alleged silver bars and alleged gold bars ARE FAKES. Don't put words in my mouth please.

    Secondly, you appear to be putting a great deal of your trust in these stories. Were you there? Did you get a cut of the proceeds? How can you be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your sources are telling you the gospel truth? Don't take it the wrong way but I don't take stories like this at face value.

    My point was that I sure do NOT know if those bars (seen in the photos) are real Jesuit-mined-and-smelted bars or modern fakes. I do not know how to tell without getting the assistance of some experts, and I for one certainly can NOT tell from any photos. Surely you are NOT taking the position that you could never be hoodwinked by a clever fraud?

    Side point but the Franciscans arrived circa 1768, not 1783. At first they were not to handle the "temporalities" of the missions (and Indians by extension) but Galvez ordered them to take over all of the business affairs in 1769.

    First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly. Ron Quinn (RIP) didn't have the money to fake half a milliion dollars worth of gold bars. Chuck Kenworthy(RIP) would not have spent that kind of money to fake anything. Besides. If he would have bought a ton of silver, then mysteriously found a ton of silver bars, MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE NOTICED. And in neither case did they receive antique Jesuit Ingot historical value. They got spot prices for both gold and silver. The gold cache was found several years before the silver cache.

    Second: I used the date 1783 for San Xavier Del Bac Mission, because on the San Xavier Del Bac Mission Website (under the HISTORY Subsection), it says the building of the new church began in 1783:

    http://www.sanxaviermission.org/History.html

    Mike
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  6. #36
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly.
    What leverage did you have with these fellows that would convince them to reveal the "real truth" about these stories to you? No offense intended, we all know you're a well-informed guy. However, most humans tend to lie about stuff in their lives, especially if it benefits them in any way. If I seem a little skeptical, maybe I came across my attitude honestly. Here are a few examples from just my lifetime. Millions of people believed these birds implicitly too, and many still want to. Go figure.

    “It was a lone gunman.” Warren Report

    “We are not about to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.” Johnson

    “No one in the White House staff … was involved.” Nixon

    “In spite of the wildly speculative and false stories of arms for hostages and alleged ransom payments, we did not, repeat, did not, trade weapons or anything else for hostages. Nor will we.” Reagan

    “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” Clinton

    “We found the weapons of mass destruction [in Iraq]. We found biological laboratories.” Bush

    “If you like the [health care] plan you have, you can keep it.” Obama
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    First: I trust the sources for both caches implicitly. Ron Quinn (RIP) didn't have the money to fake half a milliion dollars worth of gold bars. Chuck Kenworthy(RIP) would not have spent that kind of money to fake anything. Besides. If he would have bought a ton of silver, then mysteriously found a ton of silver bars, MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE NOTICED. And in neither case did they receive antique Jesuit Ingot historical value. They got spot prices for both gold and silver. The gold cache was found several years before the silver cache.

    Second: I used the date 1783 for San Xavier Del Bac Mission, because on the San Xavier Del Bac Mission Website (under the HISTORY Subsection), it says the building of the new church began in 1783:

    http://www.sanxaviermission.org/History.html

    Mike
    Thanks for explaining for me. I wish I could have your confidence in these guys. I have never met a real estate developer that I could trust at all. Plus we know that Chuck Kenworthy had been involved in hunting sunken treasure - so even if the bars are legit, they could have been retrieved from a sunken wreck, and later shown as if they were found on dry land. Maybe I have just run into one too many BS artists and can't believe things even when they are right in front of me.

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  8. #38
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Thanks for explaining for me. I wish I could have your confidence in these guys. I have never met a real estate developer that I could trust at all. Plus we know that Chuck Kenworthy had been involved in hunting sunken treasure - so even if the bars are legit, they could have been retrieved from a sunken wreck, and later shown as if they were found on dry land. Maybe I have just run into one too many BS artists and can't believe things even when they are right in front of me.

    JEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZUSSSSSSSSSS Roy!

    If you knew about Chuck's Shipwreck adventure in Florida, you would know that he got no relics. Only coins. Also, of all the shipwrecks EVER salvaged, there has NEVER been an ingot like any of those recovered. Silver ingots were typically 50 to 80 pounds. I refer you to either of two books: 1. "Spanish Treasure Bars of New Worlds Shipwrecks" 2. Christie's Auction House, Auction Catalog of June 14-15 1988 titled "Gold and Silver of the Atocha and Santa Margarita". Also, ever see a treasure bar in Florida Waters attributed to a Jesuit Priest from a Mission on the Sea of Cortez? Not likely. You are REALLY reaching for this theory Roy!

    While Chuck might have had a drinking problem, he wasn't a liar. He was already worth tens of millions from SoCal Real Estate before he ever hunted his first treasure. Before he began, he approached Dr. Lambert Dolphin, who at the time, was head physicist at SRI (Stanford Research Institute), and widely known as the Father of Modern Ground Penetrating Radar. He told Lambert that he wanted to approach Treasure Hunting in a COMPLETELY scientific way. So, Lambert gathered a bunch of SRI Scientists, and Chuck paid for them to travel to different places all over the world to hunt various treasures. To this day, Lambert will never say a bad word about Chuck. Look at Lambert's Old Website:

    Chapter Five of the True Story of the C&RPL

    .....................also, its common just sense. Buy a ton of silver bullion. Smelt it and cast it into silver ingots with the SAETA info. Re-smelt it back into regular silver bullion and sell it for Silver Spot. That would be stupid. Chuck Kenworthy was not a stupid man.

    ....................also, same common sense for Ron Quinn. Spend half a million dollars to buy gold bullion (Ron could not have afforded that to begin with). Smelt it and cast it into Jesuit looking gold ingots. Then, sell them for spot gold. A lot of trouble for nothing.

    Mike
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  9. #39
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    Mike, assuming the story is 100% true, we still can not KNOW who made those ingots and/or who buried them. Do you see that? Kenworthy and Quinn could have been "victims" of an expensive "spoof" OR the bars could have been made by Spaniards honoring the missionaries or or or or or there are multiple possibilities we can NOT know what the situation was. We simply were not there when they were made or buried and have no documentary proof that might help. Jezus indeed.
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  10. #40
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Mike, assuming the story is 100% true, we still can not KNOW who made those ingots and/or who buried them. Do you see that? Kenworthy and Quinn could have been "victims" of an expensive "spoof" OR the bars could have been made by Spaniards honoring the missionaries or or or or or there are multiple possibilities we can NOT know what the situation was. We simply were not there when they were made or buried and have no documentary proof that might help. Jezus indeed.
    While there is no documentary evidence, we can make a very good estimation based on the bars themselves. "An expensive spoof" is just ignorance. Why don't you fork out $625,000 and spoof me with gold and silver ingots? I would REALLY appreciate it! If Spaniards had made the bars HONORING the Jesuits (and in 1028 cases one specific Jesuit)....................I can't even finish the sentence it is so ludicrous. As mercenary as the Catholic Church is I can hardly imagine a Catholic Order buried the two hoards as a "Martyr Cache". I think that if it were a "Martyr Cache", they wouldn't have left clues (Mayan Numbers) as to how to find it. I think the best guess is that they were moving the hoard North when something happened and they had to hide everything. They would have needed a few days time to hide that. Maybe they got word that word of their shipment had gotten out, and they were being chased. Horses move much faster than loaded mules. Same thing happened in the Sierra Pinta Mountains. A large hoard of silver was (supposed) to have been transported to Baja via the Northern Route (around the Northern end of the Sea of Cortez). They saw Indians coming across the desert after them, so they went up some draw in the Sierra Pintas and dumped the load in a gully, then pushed rocks and dirt over it. Some of the Indian Guides got away, but the Fathers were killed and the hoard lost to time. Until many years later, when some of the guides talked.

    Mike
    Last edited by gollum; Jun 30, 2019 at 04:33 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    While there is no documentary evidence, we can make a very good estimation based on the bars themselves. "An expensive spoof" is just ignorance. Why don't you fork out $625,000 and spoof me with gold and silver ingots? I would REALLY appreciate it! If Spaniards had made the bars HONORING the Jesuits (and in 1028 cases one specific Jesuit)....................I can't even finish the sentence it is so ludicrous. As mercenary as the Catholic Church is I can hardly imagine a Catholic Order buried the two hoards as a "Martyr Cache". I think that if it were a "Martyr Cache", they wouldn't have left clues (Mayan Numbers) as to how to find it. I think the best guess is that they were moving the hoard North when something happened and they had to hide everything. They would have needed a few days time to hide that. Maybe they got word that word of their shipment had gotten out, and they were being chased. Horses move much faster than loaded mules. Same thing happened in the Sierra Pinta Mountains. A large hoard of silver was (supposed) to have been transported to Baja via the Northern Route (around the Northern end of the Sea of Cortez). They saw Indians coming across the desert after them, so they went up some draw in the Sierra Pintas and dumped the load in a gully, then pushed rocks and dirt over it. Some of the Indian Guides got away, but the Fathers were killed and the hoard lost to time. Until many years later, when some of the guides talked.

    Mike
    Oh good lord. Have it your way Mike, I get it, you believe that is 100% genuine and will swear to it. Sorry if I don't trust it 100%.

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  12. #42
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Oh good lord. Have it your way Mike, I get it, you believe that is 100% genuine and will swear to it. Sorry if I don't trust it 100%.

    There are precious few I believe 100%, but these I do.

    Mike
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  13. #43
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    This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

    https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico


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  14. #44
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

    https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico


    Well Oro, I've posted that report a couple times in the past. Unfortunately, the type of chicanery exposed has been generally ignored and uncommented on. As Maxwell Scott said:

    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  15. #45
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

    https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico


    Roy,

    I have read that article several times as well. I don't doubt there are fakes out there. I just don't believe the man would drop $125,000, and fake OVER A TON of silver bars.

    Now, the part you say about "doing business" is 100% correct. See, there was a loophole in the Spanish Mining Regulations. I'll have to read through them and see exactly where it says it, but you could legally conduct business in ore or rough smelted silver or gold............as long as you were in an area far from any mints. Once you got to town, you could spend several years in prison for trying to do business in ore, dore, or anything that wasn't provable to have had taxes paid (tax stamp and assayer's bite, officially minted coinage). One way to tell a fake "legal" ingot is that there would be several tax stamps stamped into the ingot. There also MUST be an "assayer's bite". Looks like someone took a small melon baller and took out a bite about the size and shape of a small peanut. The guy at the mint had to sample every ingot and test its purity. So......if it has tax stamps and no bite......fake. Not one ingot I have seen attributed to Jesuits has ever had either a tax stamp or assayer's bite.

    There is a VERY GOOD reason for that. Since the 13th Century, no "clerigos o religiosos" were permitted to own or operate mines. So...........a Jesuit Misssionary Priest couldn't just ride into town, and drop off a load of gold or silver at the mint. Unless a mine was secretly worked through a non-Jesuit, everything they mined and smelted had to be on "the down low". So to speak.

    Mike
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