Jesuit Symbols?

[Oroblanco]

While there is no documentary evidence, we can make a very good estimation based on the bars themselves. "An expensive spoof" is just ignorance. Why don't you fork out $625,000 and spoof me with gold and silver ingots? I would REALLY appreciate it! If Spaniards had made the bars HONORING the Jesuits (and in 1028 cases one specific Jesuit)....................I can't even finish the sentence it is so ludicrous. As mercenary as the Catholic Church is I can hardly imagine a Catholic Order buried the two hoards as a "Martyr Cache". I think that if it were a "Martyr Cache", they wouldn't have left clues (Mayan Numbers) as to how to find it. I think the best guess is that they were moving the hoard North when something happened and they had to hide everything. They would have needed a few days time to hide that. Maybe they got word that word of their shipment had gotten out, and they were being chased. Horses move much faster than loaded mules. Same thing happened in the Sierra Pinta Mountains. A large hoard of silver was (supposed) to have been transported to Baja via the Northern Route (around the Northern end of the Sea of Cortez). They saw Indians coming across the desert after them, so they went up some draw in the Sierra Pintas and dumped the load in a gully, then pushed rocks and dirt over it. Some of the Indian Guides got away, but the Fathers were killed and the hoard lost to time. Until many years later, when some of the guides talked.

Mike

Oh good lord. Have it your way Mike, I get it, you believe that is 100% genuine and will swear to it. Sorry if I don't trust it 100%.

 

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[gollum]

Oh good lord. Have it your way Mike, I get it, you believe that is 100% genuine and will swear to it. Sorry if I don't trust it 100%.

There are precious few I believe 100%, but these I do.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico

 

[sdcfia]

This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico

Well Oro, I've posted that report a couple times in the past. Unfortunately, the type of chicanery exposed has been generally ignored and uncommented on. As Maxwell Scott said:

 

[gollum]

This is not about the bars Mike is referring to, it refers to a bunch "brought to light" by the treasure hunter Milton Rose, known as the "Kino bars". The article points out a number of issues with those bars, and explains better than I can, WHY I am very hesitant to accept tales and photos, even if from Chuck Kenworthy. Of course some "issues" like the size of the bars, is highly arbitrary and subjective, we can not KNOW what size bars might have been cast at missions on the wild frontier, especially if needed for doing business where coins and currency were scarce.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10106528_father-kino-ingots-from-sonora-mexico

Roy,

I have read that article several times as well. I don't doubt there are fakes out there. I just don't believe the man would drop $125,000, and fake OVER A TON of silver bars.

Now, the part you say about "doing business" is 100% correct. See, there was a loophole in the Spanish Mining Regulations. I'll have to read through them and see exactly where it says it, but you could legally conduct business in ore or rough smelted silver or gold............as long as you were in an area far from any mints. Once you got to town, you could spend several years in prison for trying to do business in ore, dore, or anything that wasn't provable to have had taxes paid (tax stamp and assayer's bite, officially minted coinage). One way to tell a fake "legal" ingot is that there would be several tax stamps stamped into the ingot. There also MUST be an "assayer's bite". Looks like someone took a small melon baller and took out a bite about the size and shape of a small peanut. The guy at the mint had to sample every ingot and test its purity. So......if it has tax stamps and no bite......fake. Not one ingot I have seen attributed to Jesuits has ever had either a tax stamp or assayer's bite.

There is a VERY GOOD reason for that. Since the 13th Century, no "clerigos o religiosos" were permitted to own or operate mines. So...........a Jesuit Misssionary Priest couldn't just ride into town, and drop off a load of gold or silver at the mint. Unless a mine was secretly worked through a non-Jesuit, everything they mined and smelted had to be on "the down low". So to speak.

Mike

 

[gollum]

.................oh yeah, one problem I have with that article is that they call them "Father Kino Ingots".



Can anyone show me where either of them says "KINO"?

The left ingot says:
DE VARGAS
1701
MM ☩
SONORA

De Vargas would be referring to the Gobernador de Nuevo Mexico Don Diego de Vargas Zapata y Luján Ponce de León y Contreras ​(or Don Diego de Vargas). One thing that leads me to believe this is a fake is that De Vargas was only Governor until 1697. Different guy in 1701.

and the right ingot says:

S S
V
M
☩
1601

 

[Ryano]

OK.. has there EVER been a hoard of Spanish America-era gold bullion found on the North American continent and proven by archaeology to be legit ? Land burial/cache only (no shipwreck discoveries)

 

[Oroblanco]

OK.. has there EVER been a hoard of Spanish America-era gold bullion found on the North American continent and proven by archaeology to be legit ? Land burial/cache only (no shipwreck discoveries)

The only way that would ever happen, is if an archaeology dig unearthed it. Pretty unlikely since they are not ever looking for buried treasure, at least officially.

If you found a Spanish treasure, would you care if it was "authenticated" by an archaeologist?

 

[gollum]

OK.. has there EVER been a hoard of Spanish America-era gold bullion found on the North American continent and proven by archaeology to be legit ? Land burial/cache only (no shipwreck discoveries)

Ryano,

The problem (as Oro stated) is that land hoards/caches are far easier to recover than shipwreck treasures. A stack of gold bars can be dumped in the bed of a pickup and driven away. Not so easy underwater.

In the 25-30 years I have been doing this, I have met seven people who became fabulously wealthy finding Spanish/ treasures. Four of them involved bullion. Only one ever really went public (Ron Quinn and his 82 pounds of gold bars). One was accidentally made public, and two have been kept MOSTLY a secret all these years later. Ron's gold was kept a secret until after he and his three partners sold the lot, then the story got onto the cover of the August 1986 issue of TREASURE! Magazine:



The biggest problem with doing everything above board and by the book is that you will only realize about 25% (MAYBE) of the value of your find. By keeping it secret, although you risk losing everything if caught (depending on where it is found), you will wind up keeping a much larger percentage of your find, and you don't have to deal with bureaucratic crap like archaeological surveys, reclamation bonds, GSA negotiations, attorneys, etc, etc, etc. You just basically have to know a way to quietly sell it. In most cases, you will have to get very creative.

..................so, is it worth losing every penny and maybe going to jail to keep a larger share? I leave that decision to the individual.

Mike

 

[Ryano]

Thanks Oro , thank you Mike

So much to ponder..

 

[gollum]

Thanks Oro , thank you Mike

So much to ponder..

HAHAHA More than you know!

Take the story of Willie Douthitt. With ZERO equivocation I can tell you that Willie found a cave in the Caballo Mountains (just outside of what is now called Truth or Consequences, NM). This cave contained over 2000 forty pound refined gold bars (not dore). Over the years Willie took out a few at a time, and according to him, the cave still contains approximately 1200-1500 forty pound gold bars. He took the secret of the exact location of the cave to his grave in 1998. When he died in 1998, his estate was valued at about $3.5million. That was not counting the $1.5million his girlfriend found in cash in the house.

Willie learned from his mistakes. Not to go into all the gory details, but Willie let it slip to the Police that he and his friend Buster Ward had found a cave in the Caballos that had over 2000 forty pound gold bars. It made the papers. Willie was kidnapped twice and tortured for the location of the cave. He had a friend help him escape the second time. He took all the gold he could carry, took his dead cousin's name (Lawrence Foreman), and moved to L.A./San Diego. where he lived until his death in 1998.

Willie did things right. He didn't get too greedy and try to get all the gold at once. He said that he didn't go back to New Mexico until the middle of WWII (1943). He figured all the young men and guys he may have known were all drafted and gone. He grew his hair and beard, rented a car, and drove to NM. He was right nobody recognized him. He went up to his cave. Took out two or three bars, and went back to California. He repeated this same thing every year or two for many years.

I suppose that if the cave had only contained twenty or thirty bars, he would have taken them all at once, but 2000 at once is impossible without getting busted.

I know a few more cases like Willie's. Its much easier to keep a land treasure on the "down low" than a shipwreck. If you have been at this for as long as I have, you learn to keep your mouth closed and your ears open (although that is not REALLY my style ). You show respect, have some humility, and people trust your word, you will absolutely see and hear some amazing things.

Mike

 

[deducer]

HAHAHA More than you know!

Take the story of Willie Douthitt. With ZERO equivocation I can tell you that Willie found a cave in the Caballo Mountains (just outside of what is now called Truth or Consequences, NM). This cave contained over 2000 forty pound refined gold bars (not dore). Over the years Willie took out a few at a time, and according to him, the cave still contains approximately 1200-1500 forty pound gold bars. He took the secret of the exact location of the cave to his grave in 1998. When he died in 1998, his estate was valued at about $3.5million. That was not counting the $1.5million his girlfriend found in cash in the house.

Willie learned from his mistakes. Not to go into all the gory details, but Willie let it slip to the Police that he and his friend Buster Ward had found a cave in the Caballos that had over 2000 forty pound gold bars. It made the papers. Willie was kidnapped twice and tortured for the location of the cave. He had a friend help him escape the second time. He took all the gold he could carry, took his dead cousin's name (Lawrence Foreman), and moved to L.A./San Diego. where he lived until his death in 1998.

Willie did things right. He didn't get too greedy and try to get all the gold at once. He said that he didn't go back to New Mexico until the middle of WWII (1943). He figured all the young men and guys he may have known were all drafted and gone. He grew his hair and beard, rented a car, and drove to NM. He was right nobody recognized him. He went up to his cave. Took out two or three bars, and went back to California. He repeated this same thing every year or two for many years.

I suppose that if the cave had only contained twenty or thirty bars, he would have taken them all at once, but 2000 at once is impossible without getting busted.

I know a few more cases like Willie's. Its much easier to keep a land treasure on the "down low" than a shipwreck. If you have been at this for as long as I have, you learn to keep your mouth closed and your ears open (although that is not REALLY my style ). You show respect, have some humility, and people trust your word, you will absolutely see and hear some amazing things.

Mike

That would make for a great movie!

 

[gollum]

That would make for a great movie!

It really would. I didn't even include where Willie (99%) likely murdered a 15 year old boy to get the map that led to his cave, or the murders of the Loriuses and Heberers in 1935 that were connected to this cave. Its likely that George and Laura Lorius and Albert and Tillie Heberer (biggest missing persons case in US in 1935) are in that cave.

There are a hundred more twists to this story. Its really amazing.

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Maybe a movie would put interest in finding the answers

 

[Al D]

It really would. I didn't even include where Willie (99%) likely murdered a 15 year old boy to get the map that led to his cave, or the murders of the Loriuses and Heberers in 1935 that were connected to this cave. Its likely that George and Laura Lorius and Albert and Tillie Heberer (biggest missing persons case in US in 1935) are in that cave.

There are a hundred more twists to this story. Its really amazing.

Mike

If the cave is a natural feature, this would be a good place to start looking.

 

[gollum]

Maybe a movie would put interest in finding the answers

We already know most of the answers. Only thing left is the exact location of the treasure cave, and Willie/Lawrence took that secret to his grave in 1998.

Mike

 

[deducer]

We already know most of the answers. Only thing left is the exact location of the treasure cave, and Willie/Lawrence took that secret to his grave in 1998.

Mike

Any guess at where the gold came from? Since you mentioned that it was refined, it seems to be of modern origin.

 

[Dirt1955]

Mike, any evidence Willie’s cave has already been cleaned out...quietly?

 

[gollum]

Any guess at where the gold came from? Since you mentioned that it was refined, it seems to be of modern origin.

Deducer,

Gold could be refined to a very high degree hundreds of years ago as evidenced by some of the gold bars recovered from the Atocha (1622). The bars are marked in Karats from 16 through 23.5.

When I say refined, I don't necessarily mean .9999 pure. By refined, I mean a step beyond Dore.

.........as to where the bars came from...............I have no idea. None of them were marked in any way (according to Willie). Because nobody has found Willie's Cave (that I am aware of), I don't believe anything was added to the mix. In the case of The bars under Victorio Peak, Doc described the amount of bullion he saw. It was FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less than the "approximately 93 million troy ounces" as described by Capt Orby Swanner. In Doc's Case, I think the government mixed gold from either (or both) recovered plunder from Europe and\or the Pacific by the Axis Powers during WWII.


DIRT1955,

I don't believe so. At least (according to Willie) as of 1998 nobody had found his cave. Doc Noss had a second cave in the Caballos that he showed to Willie at some point. This cave MAY have been found by Fred Drolte in the 1970s. There are reports of Drolte telling all his workers to leave the site one day (the site being The Drolte Hole). Drolte supposedly hauled something out of the hole that night, then paid off his workers handsomely. One of the workers told this story. Can't verify one word of it though. LOL

Mike

 

[gollum]

If the cave is a natural feature, this would be a good place to start looking. View attachment 1733096

Not even near the ballpark. There are several historical claims near your spot, but for Willie's Cave, Drolte Hole, Doc's Caballo Cave, you need to be in the area of Burbank Canyon to the North. I promise you will never find it on G.E.

Mike