Don't Ignore the Franciscans for Treasures

[Oroblanco]

Not to try to pick a fight with anyone here over this aspect of the Jesuit treasure legends, but IMHO we as treasure hunters are selling ourselves short when we just ignore the Franciscan padres who replaced the Jesuits in Pimeria.

For starters, consider that smelting slag is found built right into the very walls of the Franciscan missions at both Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac. Now it is entirely possible that they (the Franciscan padres) had simply picked up the slag left behind by earlier Jesuit or Spanish or Mexican miners and used it to decorate the walls as a nice dark contrast. However it is circumstantial evidence that the Franciscans themselves could have been involved in at least smelting silver ores at their missions. And yes before someone corrects me, I am fully aware that the Franciscan missions at these two locations were supposedly just rebuilding the crumbling Jesuit missions which had been there first.

Next, consider that the impressive solid silver altar service witnessed by several of the earliest American visitors to San Xavier del Bac, was during the Franciscan period not the Jesuits. This altar service was estimated to be worth at least $40,000 in 1850s dollars. This impressive silver treasure is lost today, according to the stories it was hidden during the Civil War and the location has been lost since.

It is true that the Franciscans arrived in 1768, and impressed on the Indians that they were not there merely to become their new "bosses" (I am using an Americanism not quoting) for endless forced labors, which greatly helped in their being accepted by the Indians as their spiritual 'fathers'. The various business enterprises that were formerly run by the Jesuits, had been "plundered" by 1768 and the Visitador General (Galvez) ordered the administration of all of these business enterprises (to include the farming, livestock ranching, mining etc) to be returned to the Padres, so the Franciscans assumed control over all these businesses just as had the Jesuits before.

Further, one of the little known lost mines, the Lost Mojave mine, which you can see from the road west of Quartzsite and visit in person if you wish (it is played out however) was a Franciscan mine. The Franciscans attempted to found two missions on the Colorado river near Yuma, (both on the CA side if memory serves - correction welcomed) and the Indians rebelled against their masters, killing the padres and driving the Spanish out. According to a Franciscan source, years later a party of Mexican treasure hunters dug in the old Franciscan mission ruins and recovered a treasure of gold, gold which had been the product of the Franciscan missionaries mining activities. Unlike the Jesuits, the Franciscans do not deny that their missionaries had been involved in mining, after all every one of the missions were expected to become self supporting, the padres having (in the legal sense) that of a legal guardian or parent for the poor innocent Indians whom were viewed as "children" in the eyes of the padres and the Spanish authorities, unable to administer their own business enterprises without someone acting as a "parental control".

One of the sources is available online (free) at:
https://ia800503.us.archive.org/16/items/TheFranciscansInArizona/TheFranciscansInArizona.pdf

It was written by a Franciscan padre so do not expect to read a full description of all the silver mines and the gold mines, as Franciscan padres are bound to protect and defend their Order against any sort of imputation of wrongdoing. But it is enlightening to realize that these later padres were doing very much the exact same type of works in the American southwest, just arriving later and leaving later. Plus as to hidden treasures and mines, while the Jesuits were 'rounded up' and expelled, likewise the Franciscans were also ordered out of what was then Mexico, I believe the year was 1823, and they were given a full YEAR to get out. This allowed plenty of time to hide mines and bury treasures for the return of the padres at a later date. Also it is quite reasonable to understand why the padres would be hiding the wealth and mines from the greedy and grasping Mexican government, much as many folks today will take advantage of every possible exemption to pay the least possible income taxes.

Besides the Franciscans, we ought not ignore other possible candidates - remember that the first documented placer gold mining within Arizona is recognized as the work of an Augustinian padre at the mission near Baboquiviri, padre Manuel Lopez circa 1774. (Maurice Johnson, Placer Gold Deposits of Arizona, pp 1) Don't focus ONLY on the Jesuits!

Any thoughts or opinions? Thanks in advance,
Oroblanco

 

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[KANACKI]

Hello Oro

I have no doubt other orders had their finger in the pie. And they had very good reason to keep knowledge of their treasures secret?

As for example you can see in the following newspaper story below.



Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Even in 1937 they was still persecuting the church in Mexico. In 1855 a law was passed all church property belonged to the state.





So you can see all orders of the Catholic church was vulnerable at one time or another to being plundered either by war or corrupt polices of state.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

At end of day regardless of faith God did not build churches and cathedrals and monasteries and convents. Man did but not by faith alone they did it through money like all the great cathedrals in Europe paid for by industrious enterprise through donations and various business enterprises. Each religious order operates and still operates as a business entity. In effect a religious franchise. Some orders in some areas was poorer than other regions where their order operates. Depending on demographic of the region they operated. Cathedrals and Churches reflect the wealth in region at time of construction. Areas with very crude structures generally indicated a more impoverished area. Areas with more substantial building indicate more affluence. We can see that to day with certain suburbs and towns across America as well as across the world.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Again. The reality the greatest wealth lies in Panama, Cuba mexico, Peru and Ecuador. New mexico and Arizona was on the outer edges of the Spanish Empire. While no doubt wealth was generated from the region. I believe most church treasures hidden was due to war and Indian rebellions. And rather more a simple affair money and jewelry. Not great pieces of church plate and altar pieces. Here is an example of an alleged Church treasure and as far and I am aware not Jesuit.



Kanacki

 

[releventchair]

At end of day regardless of faith God did not build churches and cathedrals and monasteries and convents. Man did but not by faith alone they did it through money like all the great cathedrals in Europe paid for by industrious enterprise through donations and various business enterprises. Each religious order operates and still operates as a business entity. In effect a religious franchise. Some orders in some areas was poorer than other regions where their order operates. Depending on demographic of the region they operated. Cathedrals and Churches reflect the wealth in region at time of construction. Areas with very crude structures generally indicated a more impoverished area. Areas with more substantial building indicate more affluence. We can see that to day with certain suburbs and towns across America as well as across the world.

Kanacki

Cosmetics.
Ornamental art.

From a knock your eye out and make you almost scream at the visual glory....To a simple painted figure...

A kingdom in the sky represented by anything , depending on resources.

But where the resources exist(ed)... Who could fail to be impressed?

 

[KANACKI]

Still some interesting information.

Father Fernando Consag, who sailed on a voyage of discovery to California in the year 1746. He gives some very curious particulars, and says, that on the vessel sailing along the coast, they put into a "bay, which has a very delightful aspect of safety
- it is rocky, with a narrow beach, which, at spring tides, is entirely under water. The mountains surrounding the bay have the appearance of rich mines."

In a Spanish work, entitled. "Noticia de la California,'' by Miguel "Venegas, printed at Madrid, in 1738, and to which I am indebted for
many of the above particulars, there is a full and curious account of the inhabitants, and an interesting, though partial, history of the progress of the Jesuits' mission there, to which body the author belonged. In the fourth section of this work, Venegas gives a description of the natural productions of California, and the following striking passage is too interesting just now to pass
unnoticed:- )

"It is probable," says he, " that there are numerous rich mines in California, as the coasts of Sonora and Pimeria are well known to
contain many; in 1730, a vein was discovered on a mountain at the latter place, the ore of which, with a very small amount of labour,
yielded so large a quantity of silver as quite surprised the Spaniards, it was uncertain with some whether it was not treasure hid there by the Indians; veins of other valuable metals have also been discovered there."

So with opportunities available in the outer reaches of the Spanish empire no wonder various Orders set up evangelical enterprises in those regions?

Kanacki

 

[Oroblanco]

Well I have to agree that the AZ/NM missions were really on the 'wild frontier' of Spanish Mexico, it is not exactly on the scale of some few pesos and jewelry either. Just ONE of the old silver mines formerly worked by the padres of Tumacacori, the Santa Rita mine, had several hundred thousand TONS of silver ore removed when first re-discovered by Anglos. The slag from smelting these ores was gathered up by early American prospectors and sold to be re-smelted, each ton of the slag resulting in eight to ten ounces of silver recovered - meaning that the ore that had been first smelted was FAR richer than that.

The famous solid silver altar service seen at San Xavier del Bac was witnessed by a number of visitors in the earliest days of the American period, before it was hidden (in the Civil War) the last time, they estimated its value at least $40,000 in silver and in 1850 dollars. San Xavier was at that time under the Franciscans and had been for eighty years.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Well I have to agree that the AZ/NM missions were really on the 'wild frontier' of Spanish Mexico, it is not exactly on the scale of some few pesos and jewelry either. Just ONE of the old silver mines formerly worked by the padres of Tumacacori, the Santa Rita mine, had several hundred thousand TONS of silver ore removed when first re-discovered by Anglos. The slag from smelting these ores was gathered up by early American prospectors and sold to be re-smelted, each ton of the slag resulting in eight to ten ounces of silver recovered - meaning that the ore that had been first smelted was FAR richer than that.

The famous solid silver altar service seen at San Xavier del Bac was witnessed by a number of visitors in the earliest days of the American period, before it was hidden (in the Civil War) the last time, they estimated its value at least $40,000 in silver and in 1850 dollars. San Xavier was at that time under the Franciscans and had been for eighty years.

Hey Oro, I have some questions. First, would you happen to have any photos of slag as it would appear from an old mine?
Second, how might I find out where the early Spanish landed in America? I mean where they tended to have ports.
Just thinking.

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro, I have some questions. First, would you happen to have any photos of slag as it would appear from an old mine?
Second, how might I find out where the early Spanish landed in America? I mean where they tended to have ports.
Just thinking.

You won't find slag at a mine site unless they were smelting there as well (99% usually not). At mine sites, you want to look at the tailings. Slag is a byproduct of the smelting process, so you have to have kilns/ovens.

Mike

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

You won't find slag at a mine site unless they were smelting there as well (99% usually not). At mine sites, you want to look at the tailings. Slag is a byproduct of the smelting process, so you have to have kilns/ovens.

Mike

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Holyground]

Franciscan padres did indeed mine. If not for greed, then to create a rich and beautiful worship experience for the Indians and themselves. It cost money to run a farm. Well fed Indians became happy not trying to rustle up their grub, day in and day out. Comfortable homes, beds with sheets, and protection from marauding Apaches was a big lure to the Indians and created a work force for all Padres. Again, it took gold and silver to have these supplies shipped. Also, being thousands of miles from the King and Pope, with their rules and laws, allowed for personal choices. The only thing to look out for were the king's spies, which also had a price, being so far from the king and his laws. I'm quite certain that the Jesuits were nation building for the Jesuits only. The Franciscan padres were just flying under the radar because the march to Vera Cruz was a killer.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hey Oro, I have some questions. First, would you happen to have any photos of slag as it would appear from an old mine?
Second, how might I find out where the early Spanish landed in America? I mean where they tended to have ports.
Just thinking.

I see that Mike already clarified the one point, it is pretty unusual to have smelting AT the mines. I do have a hunk of slag found at an old copper mine that they were smelting the ore on the spot in the Dragoon mountains, just never thought to get a photo of it. I will have to see if I can find it and get a photo for you. It is somewhat like volcanic glass (obsidian) but not as pretty. It might take me a little while to find it though, hope you are not in a hurry.

 

[Rawhide]

After seeing a strange carving I suspect to be that of a Fransican I would say folks do dismiss all the signs over signs as more than one spanish ruled the roost.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I see that Mike already clarified the one point, it is pretty unusual to have smelting AT the mines. I do have a hunk of slag found at an old copper mine that they were smelting the ore on the spot in the Dragoon mountains, just never thought to get a photo of it. I will have to see if I can find it and get a photo for you. It is somewhat like volcanic glass (obsidian) but not as pretty. It might take me a little while to find it though, hope you are not in a hurry.

I didn't ask very well. What I should have asked was how to recognize evidence of old mining activity.
I should have asked for pics of tailings. But please don't go to any trouble

 

[gollum]

I didn't ask very well. What I should have asked was how to recognize evidence of old mining activity.
I should have asked for pics of tailings. But please don't go to any trouble

..........and here is another biiiiiiiig issue when searching for Spanish/Mexican/Jesuit/Franciscan Mines............NO TAILINGS PILES!

Typically, the rock from underground is lighter in color than the surface rock, so if you see what looks like a waterfall lighter than its surroundings coming down the side of a mountain or piled at the base, there is a mine nearby:



This far North, the Spanish/Mexican Miners couldn't work the mine year round. They could only work them from late Summer to the next late Spring. The entrances would be tiny and easy to hide. They would cart their tailings several miles away so as to make it almost impossible to find the mine while they were back in Mexico. It was illegal for any flavor of religious person to own or operate mines in New Spain. They went to great lengths as well to hide the locations of their mines. They would also cart away the tailings. That is what makes hunting Spanish/Mexican/Jesuit/Franciscan Lost Mines so difficult. There is almost nothing to show a mine's location. Only rock monuments and carvings in stone..........and even they mostly had coded meanings..........and yes, sometimes they were even booby-trapped. Traps that would not only kill trespassers two or three hundred years ago, but today will kill you just as dead. They are few and far between, but if you find a legitimate booby-trap (death trap) you have found something rich.

I have seen dozens of people on TNet claim to have found death traps, but I don't think I have ever seen a legitimate one. In 28 years, I know of three:

1. In New Mexico near Hardscrabble Peak, there is a hill with a small cave entrance. Once inside it leads to a staircase cut by hand into bedrock that goes deeper than any (so far) flashlight can go. Nobody has gone past a strange set of rocks in the cave because it looks like a booby-trap. I have spoken to one person who has been in that cave in the last ten or so years. They claim the trap was sprung, and a huge cut boulder blocks the stairs.

cave entrance

2. In Old Mexico, a group of Treasure Hunters found a rock on a rocky hillside that looked like a man's silhouette. They looked where the rock was facing (bottom of hill) and had to dig out a section of the base of the hill. It exposed a HUGE boulder balanced on a pointy piece of bedrock. The only thing keeping it balanced on that bedrock was a six foot long rock that went behind the boulder. This rock blocked the entrance of a rich gold mine. If anyone just shoved the rock out of the way to get into the mine, it would cause the boulder to roll off the back of the bedrock. That would block your way out (if you were squished), and the bedrock it used to sit on would prevent the trapped person from rolling it away. The pics were sent to me by Mike Pickett that used to have a website called treasurehuntersuniversity.com (long defunct now). The whole story is here: DEATH TRAPS


silhouette

before digging out

exposed trap. That balanced boulder is about 25 tons.

3. In Anza-Borrego Desert I found a collapsed shaft and the trap guarding it consisted of two boulders supported by strangely placed timber. One of the boulders had been tripped and fell wedged into the entrance.

I posted these pics here back in 2006. The last pic is from about 100 feet into the shaft. It was collapsed right after a right turn. The boulder that hadn't fallen was still on the cliff above the cut. Notice how nicely fit the rocks are under and behind it.


Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Mine dumps. Be aware of colors and shapes that don't match the surrounding terrain. Colors: mined rock normally looks different than what shows on the surface. Also, vegetation tends to be different and much sparser growing out of bare rock than that from the adjoining undisturbed surface. This fact can be overridden in forested terrain if disguised by a carpet of pine needles, for example. Shapes: prospectors/miners dispose of waste rock the easiest way they can, and that's by tossing it into a growing pile below their work area. Look for uniformly shaped mounds and humps on hillsides. If you can, wander around in a known mining district and observe the old workings. You'll soon get the idea.

But, you can always be wrong. Here's an obvious old mine dump. I found it back in the 90s in an extremely remote ravine, thickly vegetated. It's a substantial pile of bare red dirt and small rocks on a limestone hill. It's uniformly dispersed from up above where it flattens out level, leading straight back to a rocky outcropping. No evidence of a backfilled adit or filled in shaft at the top end. Where'd it come from?


Not only a dump, but look at these markers. Classic carved heart right at the top end of the dump. Dagger rock pointing to the same spot. Flat arrow rock and old stump pointing to dump from a hundred feet below on the hill. Triple-blazed tree right above.





Oh, boy, expecting results, I was pumped and went to work. First place to dig - where the adit or shaft should be, according to the flat top of the dump. Results: all undisturbed ground.


Next two years, off and on: ravaged everything above and to the right and left. Even dug up much of the flat top of the dump. Results: all undisturbed tight natural ground. Zilch. Finally, one day when I was trying to figure where the hell to dig next, I went to get my hidden tools and found a bad omen. Haven't been back since.

 

[Rawhide]

I didn't ask very well. What I should have asked was how to recognize evidence of old mining activity.
I should have asked for pics of tailings. But please don't go to any trouble

Mine have been documented and you can find them if you know how to use a gps. There are over 16k abandoned mines in my state alone.

 

[sdcfia]

Mine have been documented and you can find them if you know how to use a gps. There are over 16k abandoned mines in my state alone.

There was a big push in the 1980s to remediate old mine workings. The dumps all remain in original conditions, but most adits were back-filled and shafts plugged. By now, many of the adits have begun to wash open at ceiling level.

 

[gollum]

I had to go through Jerome today, so I took some pics of a couple of tailings falls:





Mike