KGC and freemasons the same thing???

[Hal Croves]

Walker Colt,
Thank you for your input, but I honestly feel that simply describing the conditions of the time is not an answer. It can not be as simple as monkey see, monkey do, but you are correct in that some of the "greatest" men of those times held slaves. But there were those who openly challenged the practice... for example my personal hero John Quincy Adams... who as you know challenged Freemasonry and Manifest Destiny... and obviously slavery. "What can I do for the cause of God and man, for the progress of human emancipation, for the suppression of the African slave-trade? Yet my conscience presses me on; let me but die upon the breach."
The anti-slavery movement in France (the true home of Scottish Rite Freemasonry) began as early as 1789 and they finally outlawed slavery by 1818. The enlightened movement (via Masonic ties) influenced the Mexican government to abolish slavery by 1829, which as we all know gave rise to the fighting with Anglo-Americans in Texas. Why did it take so long for American Freemasons to turn their backs on slavery? It wasn't because "everyone" was doing it and if that were the reason, Masonry should have challenged the practice based on the morality and principles of Freemasonry. This is what I can not get my head around. With all the good that Masonry represents, there just seems to be a underlying historical pattern of self-serving manipulation. Right or wrong, I believe that these examples are what fuel the "conspiracy theorist". When non-Masons today learn of the Masonic role in U.S. government, it is only natural that they feel detached and threatened. I think that the secrecy of Masonry might just be its biggest enemy.

"It wasn't until the 1960s or so before alot of Christian churchs allowed african americans into their congregations." I agree, but this conversation is about Masonry. The shortcomings of the Church is a whole other topic... unless you feel they are in some way connected?

"They looked at all the scientific, mathematical and engineering progress of Europe compared to nothing from the african continent. Europe had castles, roads, bridges, science, philosophy, etc and the africans had nothing compared." What about the discoveries made in Egypt & Ethiopia? What about the cera perduta process? I don't think that the perception of Africa and its cultural accomplishments were as inferior as you make it seem. The enlightened Masons would have known better. Anyway, it was kind of you to respond.

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[paratrooper]

Just to clear up a point that has been said and repeated many times. Masonry is NOT a secret society. If it were a "secret" society then most people would not even know of it'e existance. What we are is a society "with secrets". BIG difference. Try calling Coca Cola and getting the formulas from them. Good luck. Try asking KFC what the formula of the "11 herbs and spices" is. Fat chance. The fact that many of a specific group were Freemasons only goes to show that many people at that time found themselves good enough to become a member of the craft. Many people that do not become Masons do so because they know in their heart of hearts that they are not worthy. They find pleasure in bashing Masonry. This attitude is very much akin to a 3 year old that hits an adult in the knee in an effort to gain attention however negative it might be. This behavior is most often allowed and viewed with some amusement until it wears a bit thin and the child is placed somewhere to enjoy a much needed nap. As an adult I find this behaviour amusing to a point. It is usually displayed by someone that lives in his mothers basement and has a public speaking job. "Did you want fries with that?" .... They don't even know enough to rattle an EA.

[cccalco]

cccalco,
I am not sure if you made a mistake when typing your second sentence but it seems to contradict your quote.

Thank you, and yes I did make a mistake because it should have been written "Walker is dead on. There is no Mason higher than the 3rd degree Master Mason." True, there are the often called "higher degrees" but these were all created by a 3rd degree Master Mason.

[Hal Croves]

paratrooper,
If you don't mind, please, to whom was that last post directed?

"Many people that do not become Masons do so because they know in their heart of hearts that they are not worthy." While that may or may not be true, I honestly never thought that I would read something like this written by an enlightened Mason.

[paratrooper]

paratrooper,
If you don't mind, please, to whom was that last post directed?

"Many people that do not become Masons do so because they know in their heart of hearts that they are not worthy." While that may or may not be true, I honestly never thought that I would read something like this written by an enlightened Mason.

It is directed at those that for no just reason choose to bash Masonry. Many people bash a much larger than themselves entity thinking that it grants then some type of status. They believe that it puts them in the "same league" as that much larger entity therefore granting them more status than they would deserve.

[Hal Croves]

paratrooper,
And the rest of us who ask questions with respect and courtesy? Are we in that "same league"? I have asked a very specific question about those Masons that were pro-slavery, and the few that were members of the KGC. I agree that being disrespectful to any person/group (religious or other) is a sign of insecurity, but it may simply come from a lack of understanding... which is why people ask questions (hopefully intelligent ones). I think that we nonmembers appreciate the insight and honesty more than you and other Masons may believe. If you have an opinion about my question, it would be worth reading. The brotherhood may even win over a few converts.
Anyway, thank you.

[Rebel - KGC]

HC, it is good that you asked questions... you are searching. My answer is that in THAT "period of time" it was a "Southern thing", a "State Rights thing". The CONFEDERATE WAR was brother against brother (family thing) and brother against brother (fraternal thing); HA! It was Christian Church against Christian Church thing! WC & paratrooper are correct... AND! In the "cloudy MISTS of time" (1820's) we also had the ANTI-MASON political party, of which J. Q. Adams MAY have been involved with. ALSO! We listen to our state Grand Lodges and follow "State Rights"... even TODAY, the lodges are segregated along "color lines"; tho, there are "mixed" lodges, which I am OK with... I think DC Federal # 1 (F.A.A.M.) is "mixed". AND! The 3rd Degree of MASTER MASON... IS the HIGHEST degree... w/o it you CAN'T BE a York Rite (Royal Arch Mason, KT) nor Scottish Rite, which is more ESOTERIC! Coffee?

[Rebel - KGC]

AND! We look at Bro., Past Master, PRESIDENT George Washington; he was also YORK RITE. PLUS! He owned MANY slaves...

[Hal Croves]

Rebel-KGC,
Thank you for posting your explanation. Yes, searching to be sure.
Also, about J.Q.A., I understood it that he WAS involved in the Anti-Masonic party... along with a few Masons that held varying alliances. I will have another look. Thank you!

President Washington understood the nature of slavery. “To sell the overplus I cannot, because I am principled against this kind of traffic in the human species. To hire them out is almost as bad, because they could not be disposed of in families to any advantage, and to disperse the families I have an aversion.What then is to be done? Something must or I shall be ruined…” GW 1799 (Hirschfield,p74) History may have been much kinder to us had GW set the example in his lifetime. One of those lost opportunities I guess.

[Rebel - KGC]

[paratrooper]

Things were different in Washingtons time. Just learning how he died shows us something.

[Hal Croves]

paratrooper,
"Things were different in Washington's time." For most of us non-Masons, that is the question. Looking back in history (American) it is not difficult to see the influence of Freemasonry on U.S. government... esp. in Washington's time. I just think that people in a democracy want to know if any of that "influence" remains, two hundred + years later. It is not "conspiratorial" to ask uncomfortable questions.

"Just learning how he died shows us something." Is it the quickness of his death ("due two poor doctoring") or the controversy that surrounds his secretary? What do you mean? The topic seems complicated by the fact that three of the four men caring for the dying President were Masons... and the forth, T. Lear became one a few years later. For me, the connections don't suggest any wrong doing, but it does show a level of Masonic "influence" on the President.

[paratrooper]

He died from a common practice of the day known as "blood letting".

[Hal Croves]

President Washington's condition (whatever it may have been) was aggravated by "blood letting" but I don't believe that it was the cause of his death. This link is worth reading, paints a positive image of the Masons treating the President, and may even help dispel some of the rumors. Lear is the only person in that group of four with a questionable character. He certainly used the President.

http://open.salon.com/blog/michael_h...rge_washington

[Rebel - KGC]

BACK to KGC "era"; by then, the lodges WERE more "cohesive"... AND! IF... FreeMasons WERE "involved"... it would PROBABLY have to be "The Brotherhood" from the "Blue Lodges" (Master Masons), "Red Lodges" (Royal Arch Masons), "Black Lodges" (Knights Templar), "Purple Lodges" (Scottish Rite Masons)... according to VARIOUS state Grand Lodges, "back then". IF... Bro. Albert Pike WAS in the KGC, it would have to be MOSTLY "Purple Lodges" (Scottish Rite Masons), as HE was the "Head" of the SOUTHERN Jurisdiction; THEY were (THEN), more into Masonic Astronomy, use of GEMATRIA, "Masonic" Symbols. NOT, as part of a "Slave EMPIRE", which even goes back to the CLOUDY MISTS of time (@ 1801 or so), when Vice-Prez Aaron Burr wanted to be EMPEROR of a "slave-owning" EMPIRE in the American South West & PROBABLY Mexico. Burr WAS a FreeMason, Prez Jefferson was not; Burr was found GUILTY of Treason, by Chief Justice John Marshall (a FreeMason!). Coffee?

[Rebel - KGC]

THIS is interesting... knightsofthegoldencircle.webs.com AND! forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=277670.0 THAT was/is a "thread" by Texas Jay... KGC AFTER THE CIVIL WAR GREAT "Thread"! Coffee?

[Rebel - KGC]

Ah well... in TJ's "thread" was info on the FIRST DEGREE (Military) of the KGC. From the Castroville, TX CASTLE... NOT a LODGE! ANYWAY... "google" it, MAY find IT! Coffee?

[Hal Croves]

Rebel-KGC,
Thank you. I will read through both sites. One thing that you and other Masons on this site might help me with. There have been several locations found in the Superstitions, each with large (app. 30-40' in length) symbols carved into the soil. These symbols (alchemical?) were intended to be viewed from above, but to my disappointment, perhaps not from higher than the highest mountain in the surrounding area... so, not necessarily from an airplane or aerostat. Would this have been a means of marking important mining sites used by any order of Freemasons... at any point in history? The symbols are real, but I have never read an explanation as to who may have created them. I have posted an example in the Lost Dutchman's Forum... under "Stone Charts of the Superstitions".

What I find most amazing is the obvious rivalry between certain Masonic groups.. even to the point of war (in Mexico) circa the US invasion. So, while the Freemasons may not be a "secret society" there were (are?) secrets unique to the individual lodges or branches. A splinter group with "Masonic" ties seems plausible... for example the KGC.

[Rebel - KGC]

MAYBE; don't know much about "The SUPER(S)"... MY guess in that binocular, telescope, or even a balloon with a surveyor in a basket COULD have been used. Balloons WERE used by the SIGNAL CORPS/SECRET SERVICE (MAINLY Yanks) during the CONFEDERATE WAR, (LIMITED USE). "They" MAY have ALSO been FreeMasons...

[Rebel - KGC]

Reviewing my memory about KGC; there WAS something about the "4 Corners area" for the King & Queen Treasures. If YOU have a QUEEN VALLEY in the "Super(s)" mountain, MY guess is that the QUEEN Treasure is nearby... where the HEART carving is. HEART is a BIG "sign" for KGC depository... AND! I reckon the KING Treasure (depository) is ALSO in AZ; BUT! Look out for FED-Land for US Military Practice Ranges (LDM?). KGC utilized Masonic symbols, Spanish symbols, and the BEST source of treasure signs for THAT "area" is HAWKEYE, and the Treasure Hunters University. He had a web-site, once; I used his BASIC premise for Beale Treasure Hunting in Virginia; and the Swift Silver Mines in OLD Virginia (Kentucky, West Virginia, SW Virginia, etc). The KGC named their depositories by the cards (King, Queen, Jack, Joker, etc) & I think the Beale Treasure/CSA Treasury would be the JOKER Treasure ...