Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
Last edited:

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
YOU can prove that Charlie Bigelow was "made up"...?

No more than Finis Bates could prove that David George was John Wilkes Booth........and he even had a corpse!

david george.jpg
 

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
On 5 September 1947, J. Frank Dalton came forth and rekindled the flames of the speculation that Jesse W. James had faked his death. Dalton took hold of the figment of truth and used it as a catalyst for his made up claim to faim.
"Charlie was from Bigelow, Missouri…the little town being named in honor of his father…and he had
ridden with the James gang until he acquired the James technique of planning and robbing. It was easy
for him to impersonate Jesse, as he did bear a physical resemblance and was raised on the same border
war field as the James family, and when he began calling himself Jesse James, Dalton began to formulate
a way to get Bigelow killed in his place. Dalton did not like Bigelow, and since several of Bigelow’s men
truly thought their boss was the wanted bandit, Dalton thought it would be easy to pass Bigelow off on
the unsuspecting public, too. According to Dalton, it was Charlie Bigelow that Bob Ford knew as Jesse James, and Ford was then
commissioned to kill Bigelow. The plan called for several bankers to come forth to identify the body as
the man who had robbed their banks as "Jesse James," and thus, the real Jesse would be able to escape."


https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/james/21701/

thats all.jpg

L.C.:thumbsup:
 

Rebel - KGC

Gold Member
Jun 15, 2007
21,680
14,737
I'm not sure where to go with that contribution to the discussion....Jesse James at this time in the book isn't in Texas...And I'll Alert The Missouri Media.

JJ3 next says JWJ was wounded in the shooting in St Joe and his brother Dr Sylvester Franklin James patched him up.

JJ3 also says that Jesse Robert (Dingus) James is laid up at the Ranch in Nebraska from a broken leg.

JJ3 says JWJ sent Bob Ford to the St Joe Sheriffs office to say "I just shot Jesse James".
And he Sent Trammell and Uncle Bud Dalton to get his Aunt Zerelda Cole James Samuels. At the same time in the book, (I'm guessing by accident) JJ3 says JWJ and Bud Dalton are in the house talking to Zerelda Bigelow, Charlie's Wife.

Kace

PS..Remember in the book, JWJ is the Kentucky Jesse Woodson and JR (Dingus) James is the Missouri Jesse.

LOL! Don't give a rat's ass about the BB; either... we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Last edited:

Rebel - KGC

Gold Member
Jun 15, 2007
21,680
14,737
On 5 September 1947, J. Frank Dalton came forth and rekindled the flames of the speculation that Jesse W. James had faked his death. Dalton took hold of the figment of truth and used it as a catalyst for his made up claim to faim.
"Charlie was from Bigelow, Missouri…the little town being named in honor of his father…and he had
ridden with the James gang until he acquired the James technique of planning and robbing. It was easy
for him to impersonate Jesse, as he did bear a physical resemblance and was raised on the same border
war field as the James family, and when he began calling himself Jesse James, Dalton began to formulate
a way to get Bigelow killed in his place. Dalton did not like Bigelow, and since several of Bigelow’s men
truly thought their boss was the wanted bandit, Dalton thought it would be easy to pass Bigelow off on
the unsuspecting public, too. According to Dalton, it was Charlie Bigelow that Bob Ford knew as Jesse James, and Ford was then
commissioned to kill Bigelow. The plan called for several bankers to come forth to identify the body as
the man who had robbed their banks as "Jesse James," and thus, the real Jesse would be able to escape."


https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/james/21701/

View attachment 1665700

L.C.:thumbsup:
WHERE was JJ "killed"...?
 

OP
OP
Kace

Kace

Bronze Member
Aug 15, 2017
2,099
4,910
Detector(s) used
Whites DFX, Whites Bullseye 2 Pointer, Audio 200 D Headphones,
Garrett AT MAX, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT, MS-3 Headphones,
Lesche Digger, Lesche Shovel, 4' T Handle Probe.
GoPro, RC Truck, Drone.
Primary Interest:
Other
One of the surprises for me in the BB was the KGC's apparent strong relationships with African Americans and Native Americans. The blacks as seemingly important-level field operatives and the tribes in some sort of alliances in specific regions of the country. I don't see either group in any sort of slave role. If this idea is true, learning how the blacks and natives were recruited and motivated would be interesting to know.

These ideas are speculations on my part.

True. What's known by records and the book is that the James' owned slaves and by having personal records of my own family and their slaves is that there was a strong relationship that extended past the word slave. There were many families like mine who's slaves didn't want to leave and then shortly came back to the work, land, family unit and friendship that any family has. I only use the word slave due to the time period. Reading old wills and journals show a real caring about the welfare of those folks in the event of death by bequeathing assets to them to insure a life that wasn't entirely dependent on someone else. In other words they weren't considered 'property' in any way except the law.

They were very loyal to the end, extremely loyal...I met a gggGrandson of one of my family's slaves several years ago and the stories that had been passed through his family were nothing but admiration and praise. I was happy to hear that and be able to help a bit in filling in some blanks for him that he couldn't get.

I do believe that JWJ et al moved effortlessly in and around blacks due to his early relationships and that contributed greatly to moving around the country in the black world in a time where most white men, especially those of authority couldn't. IF it's true that JWJ did have a black guy, Trammell or not riding with him, that would of given him an in with them.

As far as Howk/JJ3, and I'll have to look more at this too, I've read gen sites and have seen photos of a young Howk where it appears Howk had a considerable amount of Indian blood in him. I've wondered if the stories in the book are actually taken in a somewhat truthful way from his own family stories. That would make sense and even in later years he still liked to be referred to as 'The Hawk', 'Hawk Eye' or just 'Hawk' like an Indian name.

JJ3, in the book says Obediah Howk, which was his own father from what I've seen was at the shooting in St Joe...While writing about JWJ's thoughts that day he did focus heavily on the black and Indian guys named in the BB.

I think the word Sentinal is highly misused or misunderstood sometimes when talking about guardians of possible large KGC vaults. No doubt in many areas locals keep eyes on things, but some people do take the thoughts of a Sentinal a bit overboard in this day and age I believe.

I also agree that Few knew what the work they were doing was for. I also believe there was a hierarchy just like any corporation and there was a need to know on everything.

Just my thoughts on that as well.

Kace
 

Last edited:

franklin

Gold Member
Jun 1, 2012
5,030
7,167
Detector(s) used
Garrett ADS-7X, Fisher Two Box M-Scope, Mother Lode Locator, Dowsing Model 20 Electroscope, White's TM808, White's TM900, Inground Scanners
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I believe he DIED of natural causes in another country.

I believe JJ died when Bob Ford shot him in the back. If JJ was still living after 1882, his brother Frank would have been at his side but he wasn't. JJ's family and Frank too resorted to all kinds of means to make money off of the death of JJ. There is even a photo of Frank standing at the front gate to the farm with a sign selling stones from JJ's grave. Frank joined in road shows of using his pistols and re-enacting robberies to make money. You think JJ over the KGC with millions of dollars could not help his family out not even his brother Frank or his mother and family. I simply do not believe JJ was over the KGC maybe a member but not acting President. When the Civil War ended he was only like 17 years old. Come on JJ died in 1882 at the hand of Bob Ford.
 

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
I believe JJ died when Bob Ford shot him in the back. If JJ was still living after 1882, his brother Frank would have been at his side but he wasn't. JJ's family and Frank too resorted to all kinds of means to make money off of the death of JJ. There is even a photo of Frank standing at the front gate to the farm with a sign selling stones from JJ's grave. Frank joined in road shows of using his pistols and re-enacting robberies to make money. You think JJ over the KGC with millions of dollars could not help his family out not even his brother Frank or his mother and family. I simply do not believe JJ was over the KGC maybe a member but not acting President. When the Civil War ended he was only like 17 years old. Come on JJ died in 1882 at the hand of Bob Ford.



It would have been a shock to Frank's system to know the whole truth about Jesse if he lived on without his brother, that is for sure. This is all I have to offer on that and even though it is worth 1000 words it is not enough to prove anything..Not wholeheartedly disagreeing with you on the subject of fake death or shot in the back, either way, it fits the K.G.C. or O.A.K.

Higher archy is ruled by those who are higher than you unless you are on the top, and in a secret societies case that is never dictated by one body. That would mean some "TUFF LOVE" could be involved to make it work out flawlessly. Is that Jesse in the rocking chair?:dontknow: If it was, then "flawless" was the plan.

jesse in 1904.jpg
 

franklin

Gold Member
Jun 1, 2012
5,030
7,167
Detector(s) used
Garrett ADS-7X, Fisher Two Box M-Scope, Mother Lode Locator, Dowsing Model 20 Electroscope, White's TM808, White's TM900, Inground Scanners
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Just from that pick, I would say I do not know. What year and what location and who surrounds him? I would still say JJ was killed by Bob Ford. There are people after 41 years still believe Elvis Lives. Some people you just have to let go they died.
 

OP
OP
Kace

Kace

Bronze Member
Aug 15, 2017
2,099
4,910
Detector(s) used
Whites DFX, Whites Bullseye 2 Pointer, Audio 200 D Headphones,
Garrett AT MAX, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT, MS-3 Headphones,
Lesche Digger, Lesche Shovel, 4' T Handle Probe.
GoPro, RC Truck, Drone.
Primary Interest:
Other
I believe JJ died when Bob Ford shot him in the back. If JJ was still living after 1882, his brother Frank would have been at his side but he wasn't. JJ's family and Frank too resorted to all kinds of means to make money off of the death of JJ. There is even a photo of Frank standing at the front gate to the farm with a sign selling stones from JJ's grave. Frank joined in road shows of using his pistols and re-enacting robberies to make money. You think JJ over the KGC with millions of dollars could not help his family out not even his brother Frank or his mother and family. I simply do not believe JJ was over the KGC maybe a member but not acting President. When the Civil War ended he was only like 17 years old. Come on JJ died in 1882 at the hand of Bob Ford.

I've said this before several times... I have such a Difficult Time wrapping my mind around JJ getting shot like that in his own home by Ford. Maybe it's just you'd think someone with that reputation wouldn't go out that way, and the casket photo doesn't help me any either. lol! The other two things are that the Bullet Hole at the St Joe Home wasn't made by a bullet hitting Anything Hard Before Hitting The Wall. I've seen plenty of gunshots to the skull and if they exit it doesn't look like That wall hole.

I haven't been there in awhile, I heard they've put plexiglass over it now because people were pulling the plaster away from the hole. But years ago before that, it wasn't a hole made by a bullet or slug that hit something hard first.

The last thing is...at the 1978 exhumation there was a slug in there that was pristine. It hadn't hit a bone or anything... to me it looked like someone had tossed it in almost as an afterthought if that makes sense. I wasn't standing at the edge of the grave to say with certainty what caliber it was, but it was there.

Those are just my reasons for doubting he was killed according to the reports. Proves Nothing. Just Thoughts.

I agree with you there was no way JWJ was head of, or upper management of KGC. JJ was and is a brand that thanks to John Newman Edwards was/is looked on favorably by many and a frontman for anything he was involved with.

It did occur to me that Frank would have to show some kind of income no matter what he could of had stashed away, so giving tours of the farm and selling rocks from that grave would be very open to anyone watching, same with the shows. Again it's just thoughts, nothing proven except that he did those things.

His son Robert took over the farm for him. Clay County has it now.

Kace
 

franklin

Gold Member
Jun 1, 2012
5,030
7,167
Detector(s) used
Garrett ADS-7X, Fisher Two Box M-Scope, Mother Lode Locator, Dowsing Model 20 Electroscope, White's TM808, White's TM900, Inground Scanners
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Have you read the full autopsy report. To me it convinced me that JJ had been shot by Bob Ford. JJ even had the bullet he carried from being shot in the Civil War. There were two slugs with two different calibers. And both matched what JJ had been shot with. There was something else found, I can not remember what but JJ was wearing it in one of his photos and it was in the grave also.
 

OP
OP
Kace

Kace

Bronze Member
Aug 15, 2017
2,099
4,910
Detector(s) used
Whites DFX, Whites Bullseye 2 Pointer, Audio 200 D Headphones,
Garrett AT MAX, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT, MS-3 Headphones,
Lesche Digger, Lesche Shovel, 4' T Handle Probe.
GoPro, RC Truck, Drone.
Primary Interest:
Other
Yes, I've read it and the full inquest.

I know it makes sense, I guess I just like the idea of him going out in a hail of bullets and not shot from behind in his own home! lol!

Kace
 

Last edited:

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
Just from that pick, I would say I do not know. What year and what location and who surrounds him? I would still say JJ was killed by Bob Ford. There are people after 41 years still believe Elvis Lives. Some people you just have to let go they died.

At Arbor Lodge in Nebraska City, 1904, and it seems the seated man on the left is drawing attention from more men than Teddy Roosevelt (arms crossed)and a whole host of monopolists, but I don't want to stray too far from Kace's thread.:icon_thumleft:

Disscussion for another day perhaps:occasion14:

Teddy at Arbor Lodge meeting.jpg
 

L.C. BAKER

Silver Member
Sep 9, 2012
3,805
4,643
Nebraska City, Nebraska
Primary Interest:
Other
I've said this before several times... I have such a Difficult Time wrapping my mind around JJ getting shot like that in his own home by Ford. Maybe it's just you'd think someone with that reputation wouldn't go out that way, and the casket photo doesn't help me any either. lol! The other two things are that the Bullet Hole at the St Joe Home wasn't made by a bullet hitting Anything Hard Before Hitting The Wall. I've seen plenty of gunshots to the skull and if they exit it doesn't look like That wall hole.

I haven't been there in awhile, I heard they've put plexiglass over it now because people were pulling the plaster away from the hole. But years ago before that, it wasn't a hole made by a bullet or slug that hit something hard first.

The last thing is...at the 1978 exhumation there was a slug in there that was pristine. It hadn't hit a bone or anything... to me it looked like someone had tossed it in almost as an afterthought if that makes sense. I wasn't standing at the edge of the grave to say with certainty what caliber it was, but it was there.

Those are just my reasons for doubting he was killed according to the reports. Proves Nothing. Just Thoughts.

I agree with you there was no way JWJ was head of, or upper management of KGC. JJ was and is a brand that thanks to John Newman Edwards was/is looked on favorably by many and a frontman for anything he was involved with.

It did occur to me that Frank would have to show some kind of income no matter what he could of had stashed away, so giving tours of the farm and selling rocks from that grave would be very open to anyone watching, same with the shows. Again it's just thoughts, nothing proven except that he did those things.

His son Robert took over the farm for him. Clay County has it now.

Kace

The ONLY way that would make sense to me is if Ford was a pawn.

" Maybe it's just you'd think someone with that reputation wouldn't go out that way, "

I would venture to say, sneaking up behind Jesse W. James with a gun in your hand would be like sneaking up on a Game Cock.

Cock.jpg
 

OP
OP
Kace

Kace

Bronze Member
Aug 15, 2017
2,099
4,910
Detector(s) used
Whites DFX, Whites Bullseye 2 Pointer, Audio 200 D Headphones,
Garrett AT MAX, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT, MS-3 Headphones,
Lesche Digger, Lesche Shovel, 4' T Handle Probe.
GoPro, RC Truck, Drone.
Primary Interest:
Other
The ONLY way that would make sense to me is if Ford was a pawn.

" Maybe it's just you'd think someone with that reputation wouldn't go out that way, "

I would venture to say, sneaking up behind Jesse W. James with a gun in your hand would be like sneaking up on a Game Cock.

View attachment 1665972

Awww...He looks like RuPaul.. The fancy chicken at the farm that was rescued from some Whiskey Tango, POS Cock Fighting group.

RP loves teasing my pup! He's a sweetheart though.

Kace
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top