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Thread: Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

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  1. #196

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    YOU can prove that Charlie Bigelow was "made up"...?
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  2. #197
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    Kace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    YOU can prove that Charlie Bigelow was "made up"...?
    What Anyone Who Researches Records Can Prove, Is.. He Did Not Exist In Missouri or Anywhere Else During That Time Period and +/- 5 years of The Age The Guy Would Of Had To Be By Using Records. Residents of Bigelow, MO laugh at the story and believe me, they could use the tourism $$$ from saying that family existed and the village was named after them. When you go back Prior to the shooting in St Joe With records...He Doesn't Exist.

    Is there a reason You seem to be insistent on Bigelows existence? If there is, please tell the reason. There's been at least 4 researchers that I can think of off the top of my head who use official records that for over a year now that have told you that Charlie Bigelow did not exist, but every time he comes up you say the same things. I'd really like to know why.

    Just a suggestion, You could sign up with Ancestry for a 14day FREE Trial and Get The Full Access Package. You'll get military including the civil war, newspapers, vital records and all immigration and census records plus family genealogy access and the gen forums associated with Ancestry. After the time expires and we get to another part you might want it, have Mrs Reb sign up for another 14 day Free Trial. You would be able to really do research on everything you like about historical events and people and feel confident with 3-4 sources on accuracy. It's very easy to use, I think you'd like it.

    Kace
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  3. #198

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    No on Ancestry web-site; I am satisfied with my R & I in TEXAS. Don't give a rat's ass about Missouri folks.
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  4. #199
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    Kace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    No on Ancestry web-site; I am satisfied with my R & I in TEXAS. Don't give a rat's ass about Missouri folks.
    I'm not sure where to go with that contribution to the discussion....Jesse James at this time in the book isn't in Texas...And I'll Alert The Missouri Media.

    JJ3 next says JWJ was wounded in the shooting in St Joe and his brother Dr Sylvester Franklin James patched him up.

    JJ3 also says that Jesse Robert (Dingus) James is laid up at the Ranch in Nebraska from a broken leg.

    JJ3 says JWJ sent Bob Ford to the St Joe Sheriffs office to say "I just shot Jesse James".
    And he Sent Trammell and Uncle Bud Dalton to get his Aunt Zerelda Cole James Samuels. At the same time in the book, (I'm guessing by accident) JJ3 says JWJ and Bud Dalton are in the house talking to Zerelda Bigelow, Charlie's Wife.

    Kace

    PS..Remember in the book, JWJ is the Kentucky Jesse Woodson and JR (Dingus) James is the Missouri Jesse.
    Last edited by Kace; Dec 30, 2018 at 10:44 PM.
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  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    One of the surprises for me in the BB was the KGC's apparent strong relationships with African Americans and Native Americans. The blacks as seemingly important-level field operatives and the tribes in some sort of alliances in specific regions of the country. I don't see either group in any sort of slave role. If this idea is true, learning how the blacks and natives were recruited and motivated would be interesting to know.

    Regarding the work needed for the alleged caches, I think the hard jobs were likely done by all sorts of folks who had no idea what they truly were working on - underground mines, public works projects, etc. When the time came for hiding the money, I believe that crew was higher-level, well-paid and well-threatened to keep quiet. There may well be some level of monitoring of sites (the Utes come to mind), but I think any threat from "Sentinels" is greatly exaggerated.

    Joe Blow is a "Useful Idiot" in the classic Lenin sense, IMO. Targeted in many cases because he's vulnerable to "treasure tales" (Mexican with a map), observant enough to find the "signs" (carvings, templates, altered terrain, gravestone messages, etc), persistent enough to doggedly chase the legend, establishing an "awareness of treasure" in a certain vicinity. This keeps the new searchers circling the wrong area for years, thus adding security for the alleged prize. Every 40 or 50 years, a new Joe Blow is found.

    These ideas are speculations on my part.
    Speculation is what drives us as treasure hunters. When you begin hunting the treasure with tangible artifacts in your hand leading you, it takes a turn but the speculation never stops because nothing about symbolism is certain. I hope you are right about the slaves because I really don't want to have to dig through them to get what we want.

    {_I think the hard jobs were likely done by all sorts of folks who had no idea what they truly were working on -)

    I think that too.
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  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    No on Ancestry web-site; I am satisfied with my R & I in TEXAS. Don't give a rat's ass about Missouri folks.
    I heard the Virginian accent when I read I don't give a Rats ASS about Missouri folks!! LMAO! S.F. Nuckolls just rolled over in his grave! HAHAHA!
    Last edited by L.C. BAKER; Dec 31, 2018 at 04:22 PM.
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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    YOU can prove that Charlie Bigelow was "made up"...?
    No more than Finis Bates could prove that David George was John Wilkes Booth........and he even had a corpse!

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  8. #203
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    On 5 September 1947, J. Frank Dalton came forth and rekindled the flames of the speculation that Jesse W. James had faked his death. Dalton took hold of the figment of truth and used it as a catalyst for his made up claim to faim.
    "Charlie was from Bigelow, Missouri…the little town being named in honor of his father…and he had
    ridden with the James gang until he acquired the James technique of planning and robbing. It was easy
    for him to impersonate Jesse, as he did bear a physical resemblance and was raised on the same border
    war field as the James family, and when he began calling himself Jesse James, Dalton began to formulate
    a way to get Bigelow killed in his place. Dalton did not like Bigelow, and since several of Bigelow’s men
    truly thought their boss was the wanted bandit, Dalton thought it would be easy to pass Bigelow off on
    the unsuspecting public, too. According to Dalton, it was Charlie Bigelow that Bob Ford knew as Jesse James, and Ford was then
    commissioned to kill Bigelow. The plan called for several bankers to come forth to identify the body as
    the man who had robbed their banks as "Jesse James," and thus, the real Jesse would be able to escape."


    https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surn...s/james/21701/

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    L.C.
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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  9. #204

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I'm not sure where to go with that contribution to the discussion....Jesse James at this time in the book isn't in Texas...And I'll Alert The Missouri Media.

    JJ3 next says JWJ was wounded in the shooting in St Joe and his brother Dr Sylvester Franklin James patched him up.

    JJ3 also says that Jesse Robert (Dingus) James is laid up at the Ranch in Nebraska from a broken leg.

    JJ3 says JWJ sent Bob Ford to the St Joe Sheriffs office to say "I just shot Jesse James".
    And he Sent Trammell and Uncle Bud Dalton to get his Aunt Zerelda Cole James Samuels. At the same time in the book, (I'm guessing by accident) JJ3 says JWJ and Bud Dalton are in the house talking to Zerelda Bigelow, Charlie's Wife.

    Kace

    PS..Remember in the book, JWJ is the Kentucky Jesse Woodson and JR (Dingus) James is the Missouri Jesse.
    LOL! Don't give a rat's ass about the BB; either... we will have to agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Dec 31, 2018 at 07:06 AM.
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  10. #205

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    On 5 September 1947, J. Frank Dalton came forth and rekindled the flames of the speculation that Jesse W. James had faked his death. Dalton took hold of the figment of truth and used it as a catalyst for his made up claim to faim.
    "Charlie was from Bigelow, Missouri…the little town being named in honor of his father…and he had
    ridden with the James gang until he acquired the James technique of planning and robbing. It was easy
    for him to impersonate Jesse, as he did bear a physical resemblance and was raised on the same border
    war field as the James family, and when he began calling himself Jesse James, Dalton began to formulate
    a way to get Bigelow killed in his place. Dalton did not like Bigelow, and since several of Bigelow’s men
    truly thought their boss was the wanted bandit, Dalton thought it would be easy to pass Bigelow off on
    the unsuspecting public, too. According to Dalton, it was Charlie Bigelow that Bob Ford knew as Jesse James, and Ford was then
    commissioned to kill Bigelow. The plan called for several bankers to come forth to identify the body as
    the man who had robbed their banks as "Jesse James," and thus, the real Jesse would be able to escape."


    https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surn...s/james/21701/

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    L.C.
    WHERE was JJ "killed"...?
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  11. #206
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    Kace

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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    One of the surprises for me in the BB was the KGC's apparent strong relationships with African Americans and Native Americans. The blacks as seemingly important-level field operatives and the tribes in some sort of alliances in specific regions of the country. I don't see either group in any sort of slave role. If this idea is true, learning how the blacks and natives were recruited and motivated would be interesting to know.

    These ideas are speculations on my part.
    True. What's known by records and the book is that the James' owned slaves and by having personal records of my own family and their slaves is that there was a strong relationship that extended past the word slave. There were many families like mine who's slaves didn't want to leave and then shortly came back to the work, land, family unit and friendship that any family has. I only use the word slave due to the time period. Reading old wills and journals show a real caring about the welfare of those folks in the event of death by bequeathing assets to them to insure a life that wasn't entirely dependent on someone else. In other words they weren't considered 'property' in any way except the law.

    They were very loyal to the end, extremely loyal...I met a gggGrandson of one of my family's slaves several years ago and the stories that had been passed through his family were nothing but admiration and praise. I was happy to hear that and be able to help a bit in filling in some blanks for him that he couldn't get.

    I do believe that JWJ et al moved effortlessly in and around blacks due to his early relationships and that contributed greatly to moving around the country in the black world in a time where most white men, especially those of authority couldn't. IF it's true that JWJ did have a black guy, Trammell or not riding with him, that would of given him an in with them.

    As far as Howk/JJ3, and I'll have to look more at this too, I've read gen sites and have seen photos of a young Howk where it appears Howk had a considerable amount of Indian blood in him. I've wondered if the stories in the book are actually taken in a somewhat truthful way from his own family stories. That would make sense and even in later years he still liked to be referred to as 'The Hawk', 'Hawk Eye' or just 'Hawk' like an Indian name.

    JJ3, in the book says Obediah Howk, which was his own father from what I've seen was at the shooting in St Joe...While writing about JWJ's thoughts that day he did focus heavily on the black and Indian guys named in the BB.

    I think the word Sentinal is highly misused or misunderstood sometimes when talking about guardians of possible large KGC vaults. No doubt in many areas locals keep eyes on things, but some people do take the thoughts of a Sentinal a bit overboard in this day and age I believe.

    I also agree that Few knew what the work they were doing was for. I also believe there was a hierarchy just like any corporation and there was a need to know on everything.

    Just my thoughts on that as well.

    Kace
    Last edited by Kace; Dec 31, 2018 at 03:07 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    WHERE was JJ "killed"...?
    I believe he DIED of natural causes in another country.
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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    I believe he DIED of natural causes in another country.
    I believe JJ died when Bob Ford shot him in the back. If JJ was still living after 1882, his brother Frank would have been at his side but he wasn't. JJ's family and Frank too resorted to all kinds of means to make money off of the death of JJ. There is even a photo of Frank standing at the front gate to the farm with a sign selling stones from JJ's grave. Frank joined in road shows of using his pistols and re-enacting robberies to make money. You think JJ over the KGC with millions of dollars could not help his family out not even his brother Frank or his mother and family. I simply do not believe JJ was over the KGC maybe a member but not acting President. When the Civil War ended he was only like 17 years old. Come on JJ died in 1882 at the hand of Bob Ford.
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  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    LOL! Don't give a rat's ass about the BB; either... we will have to agree to disagree.

    I see your rat's ass and raise you a care less and a wooden nickel!

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    L.C.
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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    I believe JJ died when Bob Ford shot him in the back. If JJ was still living after 1882, his brother Frank would have been at his side but he wasn't. JJ's family and Frank too resorted to all kinds of means to make money off of the death of JJ. There is even a photo of Frank standing at the front gate to the farm with a sign selling stones from JJ's grave. Frank joined in road shows of using his pistols and re-enacting robberies to make money. You think JJ over the KGC with millions of dollars could not help his family out not even his brother Frank or his mother and family. I simply do not believe JJ was over the KGC maybe a member but not acting President. When the Civil War ended he was only like 17 years old. Come on JJ died in 1882 at the hand of Bob Ford.


    It would have been a shock to Frank's system to know the whole truth about Jesse if he lived on without his brother, that is for sure. This is all I have to offer on that and even though it is worth 1000 words it is not enough to prove anything..Not wholeheartedly disagreeing with you on the subject of fake death or shot in the back, either way, it fits the K.G.C. or O.A.K.

    Higher archy is ruled by those who are higher than you unless you are on the top, and in a secret societies case that is never dictated by one body. That would mean some "TUFF LOVE" could be involved to make it work out flawlessly. Is that Jesse in the rocking chair? If it was, then "flawless" was the plan.

    Click image for larger version. 

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