Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Kace]

I'm Happy You Are Going To Participate T!

JJ is a Very Interesting Guy and Topic!

There's a ton of stuff on him out there...lots of truth and lots of fiction...that's what this thread is about, separating the fact from legends that have no truth. It'll be fun.

That picture you have is one of just a few that have been authenticated to actually be Jesse Woodson James. If you look on Pinterest you'll see a whole lotta photos of guys who are imposters that are claimed to be him. It's Crazy!

If you're thinking about buying any books on him, make sure and research the author first because they might not be writing about the guy in your pic even though the book title implies that.

Glad You're Here!!

Kace

 

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[Kace]

Back To The BB...

In the book, US Marshall FRANK DALTON is referred to as JWJ's COUSIN and BUD DALTON Is referred to as JWJ's UNCLE.

JJ3 says BUD DALTON is a former CONFEDERATE GENERAL. Bud, I'm Assuming is a nickname, maybe not.

I Cannot Find Any Confederate General By The Name Of DALTON.

Can anyone provide Military Records confirmation of a Confederate General Dalton?

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

NONE found...

 

[Kace]

NONE found...

Thanks

Where did you check?

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Back To The BB...

In the book, US Marshall FRANK DALTON is referred to as JWJ's COUSIN and BUD DALTON Is referred to as JWJ's UNCLE.

JJ3 says BUD DALTON is a former CONFEDERATE GENERAL. Bud, I'm Assuming is a nickname, maybe not.

I Cannot Find Any Confederate General By The Name Of DALTON.

Can anyone provide Military Records confirmation of a Confederate General Dalton?

Kace

The first and only mention of a Bud Dalton in connection to JJ was in the names chiseled on the brass bucket Joe Hunter found in 1934 in Oklahoma.

Before that date there is no mention of him in any records, military or otherwise.

 

[Kace]

The first and only mention of a Bud Dalton in connection to JJ was in the names chiseled on the brass bucket Joe Hunter found in 1934 in Oklahoma.

Before that date there is no mention of him in any records, military or otherwise.

Thanks...That's all I found too...He was hooked up with JJ3.

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Thanks...That's all I found too...He was hooked up with JJ3.

Kace

That is correct.

 

[Kace]

Next...Before we get too far at the lightning speed we're moving...lol!

Does Anyone have information on John Trammell? He's already been mentioned quite a bit and is going to be coming up a lot.

Kace

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Next...Before we get too far at the lightning speed we're moving...lol!

Does Anyone have information on John Trammell? He's already been mentioned quite a bit and is going to be coming up a lot.

Kace

Workin on that as we speak.

Before I move on I wanted to add these fer posterity showin Hunter's association with Dalton and JJ3....

 

[Kace]

Workin on that as we speak.

Before I move on I wanted to add these fer posterity showin Hunter's association with Dalton and JJ3....


View attachment 1675875 View attachment 1675876

Sweet! I know you research a lot!

Thanks Kentuck!

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Ditto! Kace, MY info on Rebel Generals, etc. (and Yanks) came from VARIOUS sources (books, mags, ppl); I was THE "expert" on Civil War in 7th grade, and re-enactor in the early 70's for Comp. I, 10th Va. Calvary (Stonewall Jackson's "Foot Calvary" in the Shenandoah Valley)... People TALK! MOSTLY from OR...

 

[sdcfia]

Next...Before we get too far at the lightning speed we're moving...lol!

Does Anyone have information on John Trammell? He's already been mentioned quite a bit and is going to be coming up a lot.

Kace

I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

OK, Kentuck, bring it.

 

[Kace]

Ditto! Kace, MY info on Rebel Generals, etc. (and Yanks) came from VARIOUS sources (books, mags, ppl); I was THE "expert" on Civil War in 7th grade, and re-enactor in the early 70's for Comp. I, 10th Va. Calvary (Stonewall Jackson's "Foot Calvary" in the Shenandoah Valley... People TALK! MOSTLY from OR...

Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

Thanks,
Kace

 

[Kace]

I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

OK, Kentuck, bring it.

I'm in complete agreement about folks with credible stories being passed down. A lot of knowledge can be obtained that way.

Trammell/Skates whatever name is used I asked just to get a handle on the guy. Not because of any treasure stories.

At his Claimed Age and what was said about him, he would of been a slave... there are slave schedules and tax records on that so that was where I was going by asking about him. I've done some checking on him that way and his claimed residences after being freed as well and have found nothing official.

In all reality...nobody knows for sure who he was or how old he was. He might of Never been a slave and been 70yrs old in 1950. Nobody knows.

Stories and memories passed down like from your friend Ross are great resources. I was fortunate to have those experiences as a little kid going with my grandparents to visit the old folks in their lives. Those stories would never make print like you said.

Looking forward to what Kentuck finds too.

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

Thanks,
Kace

Could BE!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

Thanks,
Kace

Sorta like "HACKS"...?

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

OK, Kentuck, bring it.

Why Johnny Ringo, does this mean we can't be friends anymore?

I'd wager 50% of tha field of Anthropology involves researching Anecdotal evidence. Oral histories. Native Americans would have no personal history without oral tradition. But oral histories are subjective and can sometimes be misleading. If there were no historical records ta research as well, then we would never have known that tha gold bearing lands traditional Cherokee oral history claims were always their home...were actually taken from the Creeks.

Anecdotal evidence is a wonderful thing, I'm curious though....how would YOU cite yer reference to Mr. Cherry in a Historical Record?

Being basically a "he said/ she said" testimonial, and highly subjective to the individual passing on tha anecdote, would you state it as Fact... or cite it as what it truly is, a statement made by a mentor you personally trust tha judgement of based on yer own prior dealings with them as a map dowser?

Historians frequently include Anecdotal Evidence in their research, but always cite it as such. If corroborating evidence is found in Historical Records, it lends the Anecdotal Evidence more weight. If not, then it remains Anecdotal only, until such time as corroborating evidence may become available at a later date. Failure ta do so amounts ta publishing Supposition as Fact.

You are correct, History is being re-written ever day, as more information is made available. That is never more evident than on todays Internet. Unfortunately, with that spread of information comes a cost ta accuracy. Every day Anecdotal Evidence is being presented to the public at large as FACT. Artificial Facts, with no corroborating evidence in tha Historical Record...or anywhere else for that matter, other than tha authors "Personal Narrative".

Often times, these same authors cite erroneous information they found online, from suspect sources, as corroboration fer their narratives and simply propagate tha misinformation in tha process.

It were my understandin, from tha opening post made by Kace, that this thread was started ta discuss the BB and compare the claims in it to Official Records....

This thread will be discussing the Black Book by Del Schrader and Orvus Lee Houk aka Jesse James lll and comparing the claims and stories in it with Official Records. ....

Anyway, if we can do this thread just on the book with its stories and claims vs. proven records we will All know what's what. .....

....and that is what I have tried to contribute. Every one of us has their own "bedrock personal narrative", as demonstrated here time and again. I applaude Kace fer trying ta stay the course of her original objective, hard as it has been ta do so far (meow). There is a time and place fer Anecdotal Evidence, but I'm of a mind Kace is wantin ta examine any obtainable Official Records and Documentation first. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[sdcfia]

Anecdotal evidence is a wonderful thing, I'm curious though....how would YOU cite yer reference to Mr. Cherry in a Historical Record?

Let's see. "2004 personal interview with Ross Cherry provided by SDC"

There is a time and place fer Anecdotal Evidence, but I'm of a mind Kace is wantin ta examine any obtainable Official Records and Documentation first. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

You're correct Ol' K. Let's stick to the facts - that is what Kace called for and I agree we should respect those guidelines. Now, just what are facts? I'd say filed courthouse documents, census records, passenger manifests, military rolls and such. Although none of these are patently factual, they're about the best we have. It's tricky accepting genealogy claims, real tricky, but people like to believe them. I'd draw the line on newspaper articles, like that Joe Hunter interview. Remember newspaperman Scott's credo:

 

[Ol' Kentuck]

Let's see. "2004 personal interview with Ross Cherry provided by SDC"



You're correct Ol' K. Let's stick to the facts - that is what Kace called for and I agree we should respect those guidelines. Now, just what are facts? I'd say filed courthouse documents, census records, passenger manifests, military rolls and such. Although none of these are patently factual, they're about the best we have. It's tricky accepting genealogy claims, real tricky, but people like to believe them. I'd draw the line on newspaper articles, like that Joe Hunter interview. Remember newspaperman Scott's credo:

Might want ta throw in your Cred's after your name, jest ta make it 'Official'


And I agree regarding newspaper interviews, as far as content.

But official printed dates time-stamping newspaper photographs are invaluable in establishing connections between people within a specific timeline.

 

[Ol' Kentuck]