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Thread: Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

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  1. #331

    Jun 2007
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    Ditto! Kace, MY info on Rebel Generals, etc. (and Yanks) came from VARIOUS sources (books, mags, ppl); I was THE "expert" on Civil War in 7th grade, and re-enactor in the early 70's for Comp. I, 10th Va. Calvary (Stonewall Jackson's "Foot Calvary" in the Shenandoah Valley)... People TALK! MOSTLY from OR...
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Jan 30, 2019 at 09:53 AM.
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  2. #332
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    Next...Before we get too far at the lightning speed we're moving...lol!

    Does Anyone have information on John Trammell? He's already been mentioned quite a bit and is going to be coming up a lot.

    Kace
    I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

    I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

    Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

    Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

    OK, Kentuck, bring it.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  3. #333
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Metal Detecting, Relic and Artifact Hunting, Prohibition Era and Civil War Era Cache Hunting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    Ditto! Kace, MY info on Rebel Generals, etc. (and Yanks) came from VARIOUS sources (books, mags, ppl); I was THE "expert" on Civil War in 7th grade, and re-enactor in the early 70's for Comp. I, 10th Va. Calvary (Stonewall Jackson's "Foot Calvary" in the Shenandoah Valley... People TALK! MOSTLY from OR...
    Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

    As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

    Thanks,
    Kace

  4. #334
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
    Whites DFX, Whites Bullseye 2 Pointer, Audio 200 D Headphones, Garrett AT MAX, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT, MS-3 Headphones, Lesche Digger, Lesche Shovel, 4' T Handle Probe. GoPro, RC Truck, Drone.
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    Metal Detecting, Relic and Artifact Hunting, Prohibition Era and Civil War Era Cache Hunting.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

    I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

    Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

    Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

    OK, Kentuck, bring it.
    I'm in complete agreement about folks with credible stories being passed down. A lot of knowledge can be obtained that way.

    Trammell/Skates whatever name is used I asked just to get a handle on the guy. Not because of any treasure stories.

    At his Claimed Age and what was said about him, he would of been a slave... there are slave schedules and tax records on that so that was where I was going by asking about him. I've done some checking on him that way and his claimed residences after being freed as well and have found nothing official.

    In all reality...nobody knows for sure who he was or how old he was. He might of Never been a slave and been 70yrs old in 1950. Nobody knows.

    Stories and memories passed down like from your friend Ross are great resources. I was fortunate to have those experiences as a little kid going with my grandparents to visit the old folks in their lives. Those stories would never make print like you said.

    Looking forward to what Kentuck finds too.

    Kace

  5. #335

    Jun 2007
    21,185
    13630 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

    As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

    Thanks,
    Kace
    Could BE!

  6. #336

    Jun 2007
    21,185
    13630 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    Thanks...I asked because I think we have to know what the sources are, since we know sometimes the net, mags, books newspapers and videos are copied and/or embellished a bit and also some of us use Official Records or Research Libraries and some of us also have journals that have been passed down. Some of us use the same sources too... no need for us on this topic to all be using the same sources.

    As you know, stories in magazines are a lot of times made up and it could be the same writer using a different name because they got paid to submit stories to the magazines.

    Thanks,
    Kace
    Sorta like "HACKS"...?

  7. #337
    us
    Jun 2018
    349
    601 times
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    I'm obviously interested in Ol' Kentuck's research into Trammell (or Skates or whatever other names he may have used) since I provided an anecdote re the man back in Post #224. Here's a bit more on that. After the meeting described therein, my now deceased mentor JW and his outlaw loot hunting partner RW made a special trip down to Silver City from Kansas to meet with Ross Cherry. These two guys were very much low profile and serious actors in th activities. I wasn't privy to that discussion, but JW later told me that he and especially RW were taken aback about Ross's depth of knowledge about the MO-KS-OK hunters and hidden loot allegations - things some of which RW (a PI by trade) assumed was proprietary to himself and only a very few others.

    I asked JW if the KGC or the BB were discussed and it was his opinion that Ross had no knowledge of the book, which is not surprising to me because I had asked Ross earlier about his books and where his information came from. He chuckled and said he didn't have any th books or had ever wasted time with them. He and his daddy would "talk to the people who knew what they were talking about." Ross was not connected to the internet and his electronic expertise was limited to an old flip phone which he could barely operate. When it came to JJ and his alleged post-death activities and associations, all he ever said to me, and later JW and RW, was that they were Masons.

    Interestingly, Ross dowsed some KS maps for JW and RW during their meeting. Later I was informed by JW that Ross could indeed dowse maps. This was something I already knew since he had proven it to me when he gave me a dozen or so targets on a topo map of my choosing and I found 8 or 10 hits on it - manmade things in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the things Ross and I talked about before his untimely passing had nothing to do with the KGC lore, as he had great stuff to share about other things - Map Cave on Lamp Bright Draw, Doc Noss's years in Clovis NM, how he dowsed maps, and others. I was anticipating many future talks with Ross that never happened.

    Why this long-winded spiel? Because Ross Cherry mentioned to me, out of the blue, his father's association with a black man named Trammell, and I consider Ross to be a credible witness. I could be wrong of course, but IMO Trammell or a man claiming that identity existed in the 1930s. Here's another thing. We base our yea/nay evidence on hard documentation for the most part. Official things everyone might agree with because, well, it's "official". Genealogy records, filed courthouse documents, census data, et al. These types of things do provide a compelling outline of a named person's life, but so much is accomplished that is private and not recorded. Not nowadays, with smartphones and surveillance cameras tracking our every move, but IMO, prior to WWII all bets are off. I won't go as far as to support Fomenko's claims, and theorists like him (including, interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton) but a lot of accepted history is nothing more than a narrative that can be manipulated.

    OK, Kentuck, bring it.



    Why Johnny Ringo, does this mean we can't be friends anymore?

    I'd wager 50% of tha field of Anthropology involves researching Anecdotal evidence. Oral histories. Native Americans would have no personal history without oral tradition. But oral histories are subjective and can sometimes be misleading. If there were no historical records ta research as well, then we would never have known that tha gold bearing lands traditional Cherokee oral history claims were always their home...were actually taken from the Creeks.

    Anecdotal evidence is a wonderful thing, I'm curious though....how would YOU cite yer reference to Mr. Cherry in a Historical Record?

    Being basically a "he said/ she said" testimonial, and highly subjective to the individual passing on tha anecdote, would you state it as Fact... or cite it as what it truly is, a statement made by a mentor you personally trust tha judgement of based on yer own prior dealings with them as a map dowser?

    Historians frequently include Anecdotal Evidence in their research, but always cite it as such. If corroborating evidence is found in Historical Records, it lends the Anecdotal Evidence more weight. If not, then it remains Anecdotal only, until such time as corroborating evidence may become available at a later date. Failure ta do so amounts ta publishing Supposition as Fact.

    You are correct, History is being re-written ever day, as more information is made available. That is never more evident than on todays Internet. Unfortunately, with that spread of information comes a cost ta accuracy. Every day Anecdotal Evidence is being presented to the public at large as FACT. Artificial Facts, with no corroborating evidence in tha Historical Record...or anywhere else for that matter, other than tha authors "Personal Narrative".

    Often times, these same authors cite erroneous information they found online, from suspect sources, as corroboration fer their narratives and simply propagate tha misinformation in tha process.

    It were my understandin, from tha opening post made by Kace, that this thread was started ta discuss the BB and compare the claims in it to Official Records....


    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post

    This thread will be discussing the Black Book by Del Schrader and Orvus Lee Houk aka Jesse James lll and comparing the claims and stories in it with Official Records. ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post

    Anyway, if we can do this thread just on the book with its stories and claims vs. proven records we will All know what's what. .....

    ....and that is what I have tried to contribute. Every one of us has their own "bedrock personal narrative", as demonstrated here time and again. I applaude Kace fer trying ta stay the course of her original objective, hard as it has been ta do so far (meow). There is a time and place fer Anecdotal Evidence, but I'm of a mind Kace is wantin ta examine any obtainable Official Records and Documentation first. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
    L.C. BAKER and Kace like this.

  8. #338
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,567
    6682 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    Anecdotal evidence is a wonderful thing, I'm curious though....how would YOU cite yer reference to Mr. Cherry in a Historical Record?
    Let's see. "2004 personal interview with Ross Cherry provided by SDC"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    There is a time and place fer Anecdotal Evidence, but I'm of a mind Kace is wantin ta examine any obtainable Official Records and Documentation first. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
    You're correct Ol' K. Let's stick to the facts - that is what Kace called for and I agree we should respect those guidelines. Now, just what are facts? I'd say filed courthouse documents, census records, passenger manifests, military rolls and such. Although none of these are patently factual, they're about the best we have. It's tricky accepting genealogy claims, real tricky, but people like to believe them. I'd draw the line on newspaper articles, like that Joe Hunter interview. Remember newspaperman Scott's credo:
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  9. #339
    us
    Jun 2018
    349
    601 times
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Let's see. "2004 personal interview with Ross Cherry provided by SDC"



    You're correct Ol' K. Let's stick to the facts - that is what Kace called for and I agree we should respect those guidelines. Now, just what are facts? I'd say filed courthouse documents, census records, passenger manifests, military rolls and such. Although none of these are patently factual, they're about the best we have. It's tricky accepting genealogy claims, real tricky, but people like to believe them. I'd draw the line on newspaper articles, like that Joe Hunter interview. Remember newspaperman Scott's credo:

    Might want ta throw in your Cred's after your name, jest ta make it 'Official'


    And I agree regarding newspaper interviews, as far as content.

    But official printed dates time-stamping newspaper photographs are invaluable in establishing connections between people within a specific timeline.
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  10. #340
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    Jun 2018
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #341
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    ?with no corroborating evidence in tha Historical Record...or anywhere else for that matter, other than tha authors "Personal Narrative".
    I agreed with your post all but this little bit because when a man has something that is new, unknown, and foreign to all known research, the same thing can be said. One should always keep an open mind to unique information and take it as a grain of salt until you want to know if it is true. At that point, you will have to do your own research to find the truth. If it is true, there will be proof.

    L.C.

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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  12. #342
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Makes me excited to read it, and I want to swallow it until words like. "CLAIMS TO HAVE BEEN" "CLAIMS TO BE" hit the gag reflex in me.
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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  13. #343
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    “Uncle John” Trammel who was participating in a search for buried treasure in the Zanesville, Ohio area. Other members of the search team were given as Archie Miller, Mrs. Miller his wife, Lee Howk, Roscoe James, James Cooper, and Floyd Chaplin. John Trammel gave his age then (1949) as 109 years. The ex-slave “Charlie Smith” is reported as being 133 years old in 1976. Subtracting 1949 from 1976 yields 27. John Trammel 109 years old in 1949 plus 27 equals John Trammel 136 years old in 1976. Was John Trammel in other words the Charlie Smith who visited Montana Senator William Clark? John Trammel told The Zanesville Signal that he and Jesse James had buried a chest of gold sometime in the 1880s “after snatching it from a stagecoach which they held up north of Zanesville.” But were stage coaches still operating in Ohio in the 1880s?"

    "Trammel claimed “as a newly-freed slave at the end of the Civil War, but on the run from the law, he had strayed into the James gang camp. Jesse James had forced him into his gang as a cook and unpaid servant and that he had stayed with the gang for an unspecified time.”

    "Jesse James allegedly arranged to fake his death. But John Trammel, alias “the Black Cobra”, according to Schrader’s book, left a coded message about the general situation. Trammel got some wet bricks, and a friend helped him scratch some messages into them before they dried. One brick “contained an image of a Spanish dagger, the numerals 777, KGC, and JJ [Jesse James]…” Trammel reportedly buried the bricks in St. Joseph, Missouri, and later exclaimed, “Just wait ‘til they find them St. Joe bricks!”
    Last edited by L.C. BAKER; Jan 31, 2019 at 01:07 AM.
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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

  14. #344
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    You may need these......Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #345
    us
    Jun 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    I agreed with your post all but this little bit because when a man has something that is new, unknown, and foreign to all known research, the same thing can be said. One should always keep an open mind to unique information and take it as a grain of salt until you want to know if it is true. At that point, you will have to do your own research to find the truth. If it is true, there will be proof.

    L.C.

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    I believe we are saying the same thing here, LC. The same thing would apply to something entirely new and unknown.

    " Historians frequently include Anecdotal Evidence in their research, but always cite it as such. If corroborating evidence is found in Historical Records, it lends the Anecdotal Evidence more weight. If not, then it remains Anecdotal only, until such time as corroborating evidence may become available at a later date. Failure ta do so amounts ta publishing Supposition as Fact. "

    I was not saying ye should discard anything that can't be corroborated elsewhere. Jest don't state Anecdotal evidence/Supposition as FACT until ye find the proof/Corroborating evidence yer alluding to. I'm all fer working theories.
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