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Thread: Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

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  1. #376
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    While I understand your hesitance to ascribe patriotism to tha character being portrayed as JWJ in tha Black Book, attempts to apply tha same cynicism to tha real life personna of Jesse Woodson James reveals tha complete disconnect between tha Conspiracy Theorist and tha well documented historical record. Jesse held a deep personal hatred for anything Union, and Cody's complicity in tha Battle of Westport, tha decisive battle of Price’s Missouri Expedition and largest battle of tha Civil War fought west of tha Mississippi, would have precluded any friendship...period.

    And yes, by now we are all aware of your "working model", thank you. But AGAIN, This Thread is attempting to establish Documented Facts, not "working models".

    In tha real world, fact checking and JJ3's own contradicting statements in tha BB all appear to disprove any JWJ - Clark association. Just sayin.
    I doubt this question can ever be conclusively answered. Assuming JJ was alive in 1893, you'd have a stronger argument that an alleged Chicago meeting between Bill Cody and JJ was impossible if you could "document" JJ's personal hatred for Cody the individual either before or after 1882. The "patriotism" net cast over all Yankees was undoubtedly valid at one time, but 30 years afterwards, feelings often change between former combatants. Remember, I'm a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. You're the theorist on this point, based on JJ's reputation.

    Re Clark, I thought I made my position clear. If not, I'll repeat it. Senator Clark and JJ were two separate humans.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  2. #377
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    I doubt this question can ever be conclusively answered. Assuming JJ was alive in 1893, you'd have a stronger argument that an alleged Chicago meeting between Bill Cody and JJ was impossible if you could "document" JJ's personal hatred for Cody the individual either before or after 1882. The "patriotism" net cast over all Yankees was undoubtedly valid at one time, but 30 years afterwards, feelings often change between former combatants. Remember, I'm a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. You're the theorist on this point, based on JJ's reputation.

    Re Clark, I thought I made my position clear. If not, I'll repeat it. Senator Clark and JJ were two separate humans.


    What question is that?

    I thought I made my position clear that JWJ had a deep personal hatred for "anything Union". Quite frankly I have seen no evidence that he ever met Cody. Have you? Have you seen any evidence JWJ ever befriended or had business dealings with a Union Spy, either before or after 1882? The historical record argues that he would not have. Anything else is just speculation, or in tha case of tha BB, pure fiction.

    Yes, you have made your position very clear.

    Over and over again.
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  3. #378
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    What question is that?

    I thought I made my position clear that JWJ had a deep personal hatred for "anything Union". Quite frankly I have seen no evidence that he ever met Cody. Have you? Have you seen any evidence JWJ ever befriended or had business dealings with a Union Spy, either before or after 1882? The historical record argues that he would not have. Anything else is just speculation, or in tha case of tha BB, pure fiction.

    Yes, you have made your position very clear.

    Over and over again.
    Geez, this reminds me of "discussions" I used to have with my dad back in the 60s. I realize you've staked out a rather rigid personal position about all this stuff, and that's OK by me. I've got no dog in the fight myself except for a curiosity about the subject. We all are interested in the truth (I hope), but that's a damned elusive critter to track. Ha ha, just a month ago my partner found out she may as well throw her birth certificate in the trash as it was a lie. So much for documents. Go figure.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  4. #379
    us
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    Paducah, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Geez, this reminds me of "discussions" I used to have with my dad back in the 60s. I realize you've staked out a rather rigid personal position about all this stuff, and that's OK by me. I've got no dog in the fight myself except for a curiosity about the subject. We all are interested in the truth (I hope), but that's a damned elusive critter to track. Ha ha, just a month ago my partner found out she may as well throw her birth certificate in the trash as it was a lie. So much for documents. Go figure.


    I'll consider that a compliment, Son.

    Beer?
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  5. #380
    us
    Feb 2010
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    Could Bill Cody and Jesse James met in a train car yrs. after Jesse's supposed death? Maybe. Could Wild Bill have walked through crowd's unnoticed? Probably not as his main deal as a Showman was to make his image as well know as possible. Perhaps Jesse could as he was supposed to be dead.
    With due respect to Ol' Kentuck, not all vet's of The Unpleasantness Between the States had hard feelings for the other side, at least not years after the event. A LOT of them viewed the other guy as someone who had gone through what they had. Urich,MO. will have their 125th Reunion this year. Today it is mostly a time to get together with people that have roots there or have moved away, but 125 years ago it started as an encampment for the vets of that war, with both sides on the same campground. (I have a Lapel Pin that was probably worn at that reunion by a Union Officer who served in 8th and 17th KY. Vol. Calvary.) The same was true a few years later when Wm. Jennings Bryant went to Clinton,MO. (15 miles down the road) and a former Confederate Officer allowed vet's to camp on his property near the Park where Bryant spoke. Urich,MO. is about 3 miles from Cass County,MO., that fell under General Order 11 during the Civil War. That Order declared that anyone living more than a mile from the County Seat had to move. Most of those that moved had their homes burnt, crops destroyed and livestock either killed or confiscated by the Union troops to prevent aid to Parisian Rangers operating in the area. For several years after the war, the only remains of those homesteads where the chimneys that still stood that were dubbed "Tennisons Monuments" after the Kansas Redleg leader. Many homesteads where never rebuilt.
    I'm not sure how the Partisan Rangers felt. I have read when they had THEIR reunions they prayed for Tennison and Sen. Jim Lane to burn in Hell.
    There is also an account of Cole Younger when in Clinton,MO. with one of the Wild West shows being confronted on the town square and being called "Nothing but a damned secessionist" by a local citizen and Cole pulling a pistol before others could come between them and the citizen being hustled off to safer climes. Not everyone got along. Good luck.

  6. #381
    us
    Jun 2018
    Paducah, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Could Bill Cody and Jesse James met in a train car yrs. after Jesse's supposed death? Maybe. Could Wild Bill have walked through crowd's unnoticed? Probably not as his main deal as a Showman was to make his image as well know as possible. Perhaps Jesse could as he was supposed to be dead.
    With due respect to Ol' Kentuck, not all vet's of The Unpleasantness Between the States had hard feelings for the other side, at least not years after the event. A LOT of them viewed the other guy as someone who had gone through what they had. Urich,MO. will have their 125th Reunion this year. Today it is mostly a time to get together with people that have roots there or have moved away, but 125 years ago it started as an encampment for the vets of that war, with both sides on the same campground. (I have a Lapel Pin that was probably worn at that reunion by a Union Officer who served in 8th and 17th KY. Vol. Calvary.) The same was true a few years later when Wm. Jennings Bryant went to Clinton,MO. (15 miles down the road) and a former Confederate Officer allowed vet's to camp on his property near the Park where Bryant spoke. Urich,MO. is about 3 miles from Cass County,MO., that fell under General Order 11 during the Civil War. That Order declared that anyone living more than a mile from the County Seat had to move. Most of those that moved had their homes burnt, crops destroyed and livestock either killed or confiscated by the Union troops to prevent aid to Parisian Rangers operating in the area. For several years after the war, the only remains of those homesteads where the chimneys that still stood that were dubbed "Tennisons Monuments" after the Kansas Redleg leader. Many homesteads where never rebuilt.
    I'm not sure how the Partisan Rangers felt. I have read when they had THEIR reunions they prayed for Tennison and Sen. Jim Lane to burn in Hell.
    There is also an account of Cole Younger when in Clinton,MO. with one of the Wild West shows being confronted on the town square and being called "Nothing but a damned secessionist" by a local citizen and Cole pulling a pistol before others could come between them and the citizen being hustled off to safer climes. Not everyone got along. Good luck.
    Excellent post Uglymailman

    No offense taken UMM, you are absolutely correct. Many Vets went on to live lives unencumbered by hard feelings in later years. Considering JWJ's personal experiences, both during tha war and after, do you believe his animosity could have been tempered in tha years following The Unpleasantness Between The States? Have You seen any Evidence that suggests it may have?

    I have no problem at all adjusting my position IF there is credible evidence to justify it.
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  7. #382
    us
    Feb 2010
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    Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

  8. #383
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    I'll consider that a compliment, Son.

    Beer?
    Anytime, Ol' K.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  9. #384
    us
    Jun 2018
    Paducah, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.

    And ye can jest call me Old, and keep yer fingers crossed we both don't get moderated.

    In complete agreement with ye on yer assessment, well said.




    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Anytime, Ol' K.

    I'll hold ye to that, in fact...after coughin' up them hairballs we could both probly use a cold one or two.

    Wonder where our Herd Mistress has got off to, she's fallin' down on tha job an it's only by tha grace o'good hooch we ain't had a stampede.
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  10. #385
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post
    Jesse held a deep personal hatred for anything Union,
    I am pretty darn sure that is what took them to Davies County in 1869 at the request of a wealthy friend and Brother, but I cannot be 100% on it....yet.
    Rebel - KGC likes this.
    “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
    ― Albert Pike

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post

    In tha real world, fact checking and JJ3's own contradicting statements in tha BB all appear to disprove any JWJ - Clark association. Just sayin.

    Although I agree with your post 100%, I believe it is imperative to realize that the "Real World" can sometimes be very deceptive and filled with lies that create a false persona and thus reflect an illusion that has become excepted as "real" fact instead of being based on the hidden " truth".

    Case and point,
    Name:  morton33.jpg
Views: 25
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    History of Nebraska By Morton & Watkins

    L.C.
    sdcfia and Rebel - KGC like this.
    “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
    ― Albert Pike

  12. #387
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Ol' Kentuck, being friends you can just call me ugly. I think anyone that would pray someone burn in Hell probably had hard feelings. Jesse had problems with the Union because his brother Frank had joined the Partisan Rangers and it went on from there. I don't think that group had problems with anything Union as a whole after the war but the group out of Kansas called Redlegs was another matter. I doubt Jesse was alive years later and I doubt he ever lost his hate. Good luck.
    I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

    Click image for larger version. 

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    sdcfia likes this.
    “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
    ― Albert Pike

  13. #388
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
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    K.G.C. Cache
    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Kentuck View Post

    I have no problem at all adjusting my position IF there is credible evidence to justify it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    L.C. Baker
    sdcfia and Rebel - KGC like this.
    “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
    ― Albert Pike

  14. #389
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    Paducah, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    I believe It was all about money after 1866. The plan for what to do with it was manipulated for a few months and then a few years and then who knows, but I can safely say that it carried on until at least 1904. In my heart, as much as I want to believe that Jesse was there to see it, the facts say he was dead. However,,,, there is this fella setting in a rocker at a special meeting that took place in 1904 that looks one heck of a lot like the man......just say'n

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	jesse in 1904.jpg 
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ID:	1680125


    Stampede!!!



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  15. #390
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,405
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    Although I agree with your post 100%, I believe it is imperative to realize that the "Real World" can sometimes be very deceptive and filled with lies that create a false persona and thus reflect an illusion that has become excepted as "real" fact instead of being based on the hidden " truth".

    Case and point,
    Name:  morton33.jpg
Views: 25
Size:  21.8 KB
    History of Nebraska By Morton & Watkins

    L.C.

    "... sometimes ..." Sometimes?!?


    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

 

 
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