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Thread: Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

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  1. #31
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Kace, your idea of starting at the beginning of the BB and progressing forward is probably the best way to thoroughly examine and discuss its contents. Staying on point without too many wanderings will be like herding cats and will require a gatekeeper. That job is clearly yours - good luck.

    Houk himself ought not to be a part of the discussion IMO. The book's content alone is the focus and it needs to be discussed strictly on its own merits, regardless whose name is on the title page. Besides, how can we be certain that Houk provided all/some of the book's content to Schrader? How do we know that information wasn't provided by the Organization, with Houk's purpose only being the controversial "insider", the barker? I think Houk is too big a distraction and may hijack the thread - maybe he needs his own thread.

    The motivation for publishing the BB in the first place may go a long way in evaluating its content. IMO, the book is essentially an allegory and can't be taken at its preposterous face value. Some of the characters and events can be verified factually, some may have been totally fabricated, some are somewhere in between. They all ought to be discussed - the rich and powerful, the politically connected, the Native American connections, the Booth story, the black James associates. When it's all put together, I see a message.

    Back in the day, it seems many bank robberies were impossibly attributed to Jesse because of his notoriety. Dozens of characters in the BB are alleged to be Jesse aliases, which of course is ridiculous and the primary reason the book is scorned. James has become the poster boy for the Organization, but IMO the BB's message is that the Organization (like the Deep State) is pervasive, well-connected and below the radar.

    So, Kace, it'll be up to you to moderate this thread in a manner that satisfies your mission statement. You'll need to try to establish and manage some sort of scheduling format to do that. We're already 30 posts into the thread without much said.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  2. #32

    Jun 2007
    21,112
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    "Herding cats"... LOL! NO "gate-keeping" is possible with cats, to my knowledge.
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Dec 15, 2018 at 09:22 AM.
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  3. #33

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I think we have to start at the Beginning of the book, go in order and not just pull claims out of it... The Henry Ford character of FOMOCO doesn't play in til later in the story. I think it's Very important to address it and show like you did that it has been repeated even on many Genealogy, Outlaw,Civil War, Treasure and KGC sites.

    I saw one claim by some girl on a Genforum site who said she was a Great-granddaughter of Alexander Franklin James of Missouri and that she had 200 cousins by just Frank and Jesse James! 200! She was serious and believed all that stuff that's been written. Alexander Franklin James had ONE son who Never had children....Which means he had No Grandchildren. Jesse Woodson James of Missouri had 8 Grandchildren and some of them Didn't have children.

    Could Houks motivation of claiming Jesse James bankrolled Henry Ford or Was Henry Ford be to get a Ford car Given to him by advertising Jesse James Drove a Ford? Houk didn't have a dependable car and he even says in the book his broke down trying to get 'Grandpa' to Missouri and had they to go back wherever they came from. No money to fix it.

    This is a very Confusing and Convoluted book with Many, Many Outlandish claims that to avoid False information being propagated now and in the future can be addressed in order, starting at the prologue and researching them against Official Records to get the truth as questions arise.

    I know we all have had different opinions on these things and that's happened because of what we have read somewhere or saw online. So...My thoughts are to Keep Opinions Out Of This Thread and Only Talk About What's In The Book and Official Records. If we do it that way, this thread 'shouldn't get heated' because we are all only talking about what's in the book and printed records.

    Reb asked the question about other books/authors that have followed the BB in repeating claims which is a valid point for this thread...lots of folks have read other books or have seen the videos that have done that and they do not realize that those books, videos and lectures are are just a repeat of Houks claims worded differently. If folks haven't read the BB, How would they know that?

    The people, claims and statements that are quoted from the BB on this thread will undoubtedly bring up the point that Rousch, Brewer, Pastore, Epperson, Carter and guests etc said these things too and that's where using the Official Records come in to play to either confirm or refute the claims of the Black Book and show that some of these guys currently using it have discovered that the money isn't in finding tangible buried treasure, but in book sales, paid lectures and online hits by repeating Houks tales just like he tried to do in his time with John James,Dalton and the Maps.

    I've said what I thought plenty of times...ad nauseam...but if this thread can be kept just on the book Jesse James Was One Of His Names and Official Records. We all would be seeing the same things...claims....true or false to confirm or denounce them.

    It is my opinion though that it's going to be Very Hard if Not Impossible to prove or disprove some of the KGC stuff written in that book since there are not any extensive records on it like franklin said. We all know Knights of the Golden Circle existed... that's provable. What all they did, who was in charge of what, who did what or every group they were or were not associated with in that book isn't provable.

    I skimmed over some of that in the book and the only thing I really could see to do was use dates and names. There's never been a KGC Vault or Depository Recovered at this point in time so even though Houk talks in the book about the vast riches and property he and Dalton owned and had at their disposal...Many records show otherwise.

    If you guys have another idea on that or maybe just skipping over the KGC Vault/Depository parts of the book, I'm open to any thoughts on it. Just say what you guys want to do on that. I'm just trying to avoid any disagreements on that topic since that part can only be opinions.

    Say what you think on what I've said and let's get started...Has anyone that doesn't have the book tried to locate one? I'm just wondering how hard it will be to locate a loaner. Hopefully not too hard.

    Kace
    If the BB is in a Reference Section of a library; it CAN NOT be checked out; research must be done "in situ"... CARRY ON!
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Dec 15, 2018 at 09:35 AM.
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  4. #34

    Jun 2007
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    13573 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I'd say the top 3 Books Copying the Black Book are from:
    Dr. Roy Rousch
    Bob Brewer
    Ron Pastore

    But there's A Lot of repeating of the claims of the BB on YouTube. America Unearthed with Wolter and then Decoded with Metzler hit on it and of course Pastore with his Kansas reality show are on there.

    Epperson and Carter along with his guests are probably the two largest online that repeat and reference the claims of the BB and large KGC Vaults.

    None of those guys or their guests have ever found a large KGC vault, but they do try and tell you how to do it. Brewer has found what he says are KGC depositories valued at $200k IN TODAYS $$$$. There was nothing saying that the caches were KGC and $200k in TODAY's VALUE isn't what I'd call a LARGE KGC Depository. A depository of $200k in gold back then, yes that would be Very large today. WOW! That would be great to find!! lol!

    Kace
    Did YOU "confront" Roush, Brewer, and Pastore…?
    franklin likes this.

  5. #35

    Jun 2007
    21,112
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    INTERESTING... Roush on KGC, Brewer on CSA/Sentinels, Pastore on Jesse James.
    franklin likes this.

  6. #36
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Kace, your idea of starting at the beginning of the BB and progressing forward is probably the best way to thoroughly examine and discuss its contents. Staying on point without too many wanderings will be like herding cats and will require a gatekeeper. That job is clearly yours - good luck.

    Houk himself ought not to be a part of the discussion IMO. The book's content alone is the focus and it needs to be discussed strictly on its own merits, regardless whose name is on the title page. Besides, how can we be certain that Houk provided all/some of the book's content to Schrader? How do we know that information wasn't provided by the Organization, with Houk's purpose only being the controversial "insider", the barker? I think Houk is too big a distraction and may hijack the thread - maybe he needs his own thread.

    The motivation for publishing the BB in the first place may go a long way in evaluating its content. IMO, the book is essentially an allegory and can't be taken at its preposterous face value. Some of the characters and events can be verified factually, some may have been totally fabricated, some are somewhere in between. They all ought to be discussed - the rich and powerful, the politically connected, the Native American connections, the Booth story, the black James associates. When it's all put together, I see a message.

    Back in the day, it seems many bank robberies were impossibly attributed to Jesse because of his notoriety. Dozens of characters in the BB are alleged to be Jesse aliases, which of course is ridiculous and the primary reason the book is scorned. James has become the poster boy for the Organization, but IMO the BB's message is that the Organization (like the Deep State) is pervasive, well-connected and below the radar.

    So, Kace, it'll be up to you to moderate this thread in a manner that satisfies your mission statement. You'll need to try to establish and manage some sort of scheduling format to do that. We're already 30 posts into the thread without much said.
    SD...I'm happy you are going to participate! Do you have the BB?

    This isn't just my project, but starting at the beginning of that book I do feel is necessary to cover everything you mentioned and Everything and Every Character in it.

    I'm glad you brought up the metaphorical possibilities of the book... I've heard that before regarding it and after we all go through it from a literal point as published, it would be fun to discuss the possibility it was written as an allegory. I personally believe that No Organization would have Houk around for Anything, but I'd love to hear another side from you and others why that could be the case after the actual claims, people and statements are straightened out from the book as written.

    I agree 100% that there's No Way to know who really said what, and I also think that character assessments or attacks on Houk have no place in this thread about the BB as written. Obviously he'll have to be referred to as JJ3 or Lee, whatever is going on in the book at that time.

    As far as moderation...I'm not a moderator and I'd like it if nothing happens to make any moderator feel the need to get involved except if they want to participate in the thread...If we start at the beginning, which I'll post the first statements in the prologue today and we all just go with the characters and events that are written in the book and verifying or eliminating them from records and not opinions, this thread 'should' run itself.

    There will have to be a time frame like you said for each section of the book that's put up for confirmation or rebuttal.
    The book itself backtracks in places and is not always in chronological order.

    Does everyone think two days are enough to allow for confirmation or rebuttal on sections by everyone participating and those who might join the thread?

    Kace
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  7. #37
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    If the BB is in a Reference Section of a library; it CAN NOT be checked out; research must be done "in situ"... CARRY ON!
    They won't let you put a deposit on it for a week at a time?

    Kace
    Rebel - KGC and Rebel - KGC like this.

  8. #38
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    Did YOU "confront" Roush, Brewer, and Pastore…?
    I don't know what YOU mean by "confront"?

    If they've been on here or read any of those topics here, then yes I haven't hidden my thoughts. I do not belong to any other sites or FB. I know none of them personally, just what they've Publicly said. I'm not a stalker if that's what you mean by 'confront' as in person. I'd say exactly what I've said here to anyone to their face in a conversation... I wouldn't run up and start yelling my views at them and I've never left a negative comment on anyone's book or video, that includes YouTube channels too.

    My opinion is if some individual, business or group make any sort of PUBLIC CLAIMS On Forums, Web Sites, In Ads or Books and Video stating them AS Factual....They've Opened The Door for People to Ask Questions, Ask for Proof of the Claims, Make Comments and Debate them in a Polite, Professional Manner....Not Attacking or Name Calling by either side. If people wanna make claims without rebuttal or not be willing to talk about them or answer direct questions besides saying...
    'I can't tell you now, but I will soon' and then get upset when folks don't believe them, because Soon never happens....They need to get a diary or dog to talk to. Or wait until the whole story can be told.

    Your question earlier was who did I think copied, took from or referenced the BB...Who I mentioned is who does that the most.

    Pastore with his badge and sidearm along with those shotgun blasts and helicopter sound effects look too scary to confront! ROFL!!

    Here's my opinion on those guys... I think they truly have a sincere interest in large scale treasure hunting...It didn't work out to be a very consistent income or profitable line of work like a lot of businesses, not just theirs and they had to make a living, so they decided to go with selling books and videos, doing paid lectures or hoping to have income from internet channels or television shows filming their hunts.

    The other thing too is people get older and physically cannot do what they used to do and they have to find people to do manual labor that they feel they can trust, even if it's just getting GPR around and digging holes and usually they want them to work for free and promising the workers a percentage of the for sure it's there treasure just as soon as it's recovered. Well... when no treasure is found, Then What? They either have to pay them or make enemies that know a lot of what the hunter thinks is valuable information along with knowing them and their families personally. That's kinda dangerous depending on the people they are dealing with and if those people were really vested in that and maybe incurred debt while working for the hunter it makes for a potentially volatile situation. It's easier to just write, lecture or film about it.

    The Jesse James Brand Always Sells...It Always Will and There's Even Kids Books On Frank and Jesse James Buried Treasure To Insure The Legends Continue. They Will.

    It takes a very significant amount of discretionary cash, time and equipment to do something like large scale treasure hunting and it doesn't always work out the way you hoped it would.

    Kace

    PS...Are there any other comments or questions directed at or to anyone Not about the Book before we get started?
    ************************************************** *********************
    Do you guys think 2 days are sufficient from the last post of confirmation or rebuttal on what's written in the book?

    Kace
    Last edited by Kace; Dec 15, 2018 at 06:30 PM.
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  9. #39
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    Time has that effect on things that are repeated without rebuttal, and after a while, B.S. can become "undisputed" fact.

    EXACTLY...And the more it's repeated the more real it Has to be. Very Well Said!

    Kace

  10. #40
    us
    Feb 2010
    1,105
    1174 times
    Hi Kace, et.al.. I just saw this thread today. That being said, I would vote against putting a deadline on reply's to a page or chapter of discussion. It would also hamper those like me who come late to the game.
    Thanks for the invite to participate. I will lurk for a bit as I have no copy of said book. But I'd guess my input will not amount to much. I have few FACTS. Facts seem to be a problem when talking about much of the lives of the James or Youngers and some of their associates. People can't even agree when and where some of them died. So just for the record, my OPINION is Jessie James died in St. Jo, MO.. I'll also throw in Bloody Bill Anderson died in MO. in 1865. Bill HATED and it's just about impossible to turn that off. There is also no doubt he LIKED killing Yankees or the Dutch. From what I've read that comes from those that served with or under him, he wouldn't have just rode away.
    I'll look forward to what TRUTH yall can come up with. I even enjoy reading the wild stories that are out there, just don't expect me to buy em. Good luck.
    Rebel - KGC, Kace and L.C. BAKER like this.

  11. #41

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    They won't let you put a deposit on it for a week at a time?

    Kace
    NOPE.
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  12. #42
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    NOPE.
    What I've done on papers that have to stay somewhere is use a Scanner App that I put on my phone. Or Take pics of pages. Or see if they will let you copy 10-20 pages at a time. Either those options or I guess take notes at the library.

    Whatever is easiest for you.

    Kace
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  13. #43
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Hi Kace, et.al.. I just saw this thread today. That being said, I would vote against putting a deadline on reply's to a page or chapter of discussion. It would also hamper those like me who come late to the game.
    Thanks for the invite to participate. I will lurk for a bit as I have no copy of said book. But I'd guess my input will not amount to much. I have few FACTS. Facts seem to be a problem when talking about much of the lives of the James or Youngers and some of their associates. People can't even agree when and where some of them died. So just for the record, my OPINION is Jessie James died in St. Jo, MO.. I'll also throw in Bloody Bill Anderson died in MO. in 1865. Bill HATED and it's just about impossible to turn that off. There is also no doubt he LIKED killing Yankees or the Dutch. From what I've read that comes from those that served with or under him, he wouldn't have just rode away.
    I'll look forward to what TRUTH yall can come up with. I even enjoy reading the wild stories that are out there, just don't expect me to buy em. Good luck.
    Glad You're Here Ug! A lot of folks do not have that book so those of us that do will be posting what's in there starting at the beginning and then anyone can research the names, dates and claims. No reason anyone needs to buy it.

    This thread is just to go with records and that book only.

    Hope all Is Well!

    Kace
    Rebel - KGC likes this.

  14. #44
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,534
    6536 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    SD...I'm happy you are going to participate! Do you have the BB?

    This isn't just my project, but starting at the beginning of that book I do feel is necessary to cover everything you mentioned and Everything and Every Character in it.

    I'm glad you brought up the metaphorical possibilities of the book... I've heard that before regarding it and after we all go through it from a literal point as published, it would be fun to discuss the possibility it was written as an allegory. I personally believe that No Organization would have Houk around for Anything, but I'd love to hear another side from you and others why that could be the case after the actual claims, people and statements are straightened out from the book as written.

    I agree 100% that there's No Way to know who really said what, and I also think that character assessments or attacks on Houk have no place in this thread about the BB as written. Obviously he'll have to be referred to as JJ3 or Lee, whatever is going on in the book at that time.

    As far as moderation...I'm not a moderator and I'd like it if nothing happens to make any moderator feel the need to get involved except if they want to participate in the thread...If we start at the beginning, which I'll post the first statements in the prologue today and we all just go with the characters and events that are written in the book and verifying or eliminating them from records and not opinions, this thread 'should' run itself.

    There will have to be a time frame like you said for each section of the book that's put up for confirmation or rebuttal.
    The book itself backtracks in places and is not always in chronological order.

    Does everyone think two days are enough to allow for confirmation or rebuttal on sections by everyone participating and those who might join the thread?

    Kace
    Yes, I have the book.

    I don't believe there should be any sort of time schedule per topic or book chapter. Some things may not draw enough attention to discuss much at all. Others could develop long vital lives of their own, and folks might not wish to quit on them when the clock runs out. Also, some people check TNet daily and might be able to help keep moving the discussion, while others check in much less often and need to keep catching up. Both types might have important things to contribute. I used to be all over KGC lore in years past, but in the last few years, I haven't thought a lot about it and have rarely looked at the TNet threads.

    I guess you may as well just plunge ahead and see what happens. Since this was your idea, I guess you're the person who needs to signal a change when the time seems right.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  15. #45
    us
    Kace

    Aug 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Yes, I have the book.

    I don't believe there should be any sort of time schedule per topic or book chapter. Some things may not draw enough attention to discuss much at all. Others could develop long vital lives of their own, and folks might not wish to quit on them when the clock runs out. Also, some people check TNet daily and might be able to help keep moving the discussion, while others check in much less often and need to keep catching up. Both types might have important things to contribute. I used to be all over KGC lore in years past, but in the last few years, I haven't thought a lot about it and have rarely looked at the TNet threads.

    I guess you may as well just plunge ahead and see what happens. Since this was your idea, I guess you're the person who needs to signal a change when the time seems right.
    lol! OK....T-30min before Prologue Begins.

    Any requests, statements, questions by anyone....Nows the time.

    Anything written in the BB is fine starting with Prologue. Then records. I will start that and then after the prologue everyone can decide together to move it along, but coming back to anything previously posted is fine. Just not jumping ahead.

    Questions on what's been posted from the BB already on the thread is fine.

    Records are fine, relating to the posts already made.

    Opinions are Not fine due to the potential for disagreements and keeping it just about the books claims, names, dates and events.

    Let's try and keep it fluid without just lol's and emojis and nothing else.

    No time limit on referring back to posts, just use the quote on what is being referenced about from the book or records.

    Official Vital Statistic Records from the Robert Sallee and Zerelda Cole James Family are on the first page of this thread for reference.

    This isn't just my thread...everyone with the book or access to it is contributing to this and answering questions from those who don't have the BB and everyone with research sites that carry official records is posting too. It'll probably take all winter, but will be fun to do!

    I'm glad everyone is showing an interest in it and those that haven't been around for awhile are back! I've missed all of these topics with you guys.

    Kace
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