Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion

[Kace]

Tell him, anyway... he MAY have MORE info on "TEXAS Charley"; BTW... Darrel, (back EAST) was a JOKER! His wife, Gail, was an artist... knew 'em both, well!

I think since you referenced it....You should contact him if you think he might have something relevent and if you take this guy as a serious researcher.

I think he's a Joker writer like Darrell that talks about legends and obscure things folks might see off the beaten path on road trips like the Worlds Largest Pecan and Worlds Largest Ball of String...He writes for entertainment, not factual information and even says that on his blog.

Let us know what he says....Unless it's where to find the Worlds Largest Walnut. lol!

Kace

 

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[Kace]

Brewer came into his KGC knowledge late in life thanks to the help of well-informed non-family members. His book was not the book he wanted, although there is some very good information in it. Most folks acknowledge that Getler did nobody any favors with his involvement. Brewer and London's "silent partner" was going to write the much-anticipated second book, including much of his own knowledge, but he died in 2010 before he could bring himself to accepting Brewer's intended premise. Too, too bad.

I agree with you about Gelter not helping much. Do you have a copy of the original Small book that Brewer did Before Gelter?

Are you talking about Vickery being the silent partner?

Kace

 

[Kace]

My great great grandmother was married to a James. They were married from 1871-1879, but her husband James (Jim) James died young at age 24. They had 3 children and the story goes they had moved from McGargel, Texas to Archer City on a small ranch. She remarried in 1878 and her second marriage lasted about 57 years. However, I'd always heard that Jesse and Frank came to visit their sister Susie in Archer City and would visit my gggm as well, have chicken dinner out at the ranch. I actually remember her pretty well although I was very small. NOW, I find it most peculiar that the James boys sister decided to live in Archer City. It's not the scenic capital of Texas, but cattle country and mesquite and old red dirt. This was way before the oil boom days. Why did she and her husband Parmer (?) live there? She most certainly knew my gggm and the connection with the James brothers just can't be accidental. My gggm knew some secret or secrets she never divulged. Susan died about 1938 and is buried in Wichita Falls about 20 miles north of Archer. Her gravestone is very elaborate for the times. I wonder if Jesse's gold paid for the marker? He died ( or did he?) in 1882 three years after my gggm's first husband. So, between this story and Brewer and all the others that seem to be popping up daisies it has fostered my interest in the KGC. Unfortunately, the family no longer has the ranch. damn, I bet there's millions of gold coins out there.

Thanks mbb.... So that would have to be some possible cousins on the Robert Sallee James side from a brother/uncle of his since it's the James name. Easy enough to find out if it's the same James family.

Susan James Parmer, sister of Frank and Jesse died in 1889. She was only 38-39yrs old. Married to Allen Parmer at the time of her passing.

Kace

 

[mbb]

Thanks mbb.... So that would have to be some possible cousins on the Robert Sallee James side from a brother/uncle of his since it's the James name. Easy enough to find out if it's the same James family.

Susan James Parmer, sister of Frank and Jesse died in 1889. She was only 38-39yrs old. Married to Allen Parmer at the time of her passing.

Kace

Yes, my mistake. It was indeed 1889 and here's a link to her gravesite in Archer City. Jim James would have been a cousin. He was born in Arkansas and I've yet to follow the leads through Ancestry. com.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/10700891/susan-lavenia-parmer

 

[Kace]

Yes, my mistake. It was indeed 1889 and here's a link to her gravesite in Archer City. Jim James would have been a cousin. He was born in Arkansas and I've yet to follow the leads through Ancestry. com.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/10700891/susan-lavenia-parmer

I haven't looked extensively for quite awhile but from memory and records of RS James...He and his siblings were born in Kentucky and most, if not all of the boys came to Missouri. One brother Thomas was a Very Wealthy business owner in Kansas City. He sold his James Building in KCMO to Joyce Hall of Hallmark Card fame. Drury went on to California as did RSJ and both died there according to records...but the others stayed fairly local to KC in Missouri. Interesting tidbit is that on Find A Grave...Drury Isn't Listed as RSJ brother...But we all know that site can be manipulated, so since some people add to it or take information away from it that's not right, all the other records have to be verified.

Now...since it's been awhile, I could of forgotten one brother...So, I'm not going to say I'm 100% right on that as far as referring to every brother. Maybe when you do your James genealogy you'd post it for us... hopefully.

Are you referring to the Vaughn family of Arkansas claims of being the James'? I ask because I'm only speaking of the Robert Sallee James Family of Kearney, MO and when you gave the dates and said Arkansas it made me think of them.

There are also at least two other Jesse James in this book that haven't come up yet.

Kace

 

[mbb]

I haven't looked extensively for quite awhile but from memory and records of RS James...He and his siblings were born in Kentucky and most, if not all of the boys came to Missouri. One brother Thomas was a Very Wealthy business owner in Kansas City. He sold his James Building in KCMO to Joyce Hall of Hallmark Card fame. Drury went on to California as did RSJ and both died there according to records...but the others stayed fairly local to KC in Missouri. Interesting tidbit is that on Find A Grave...Drury Isn't Listed as RSJ brother...But we all know that site can be manipulated, so since some people add to it or take information away from it that's not right, all the other records have to be verified.

Now...since it's been awhile, I could of forgotten one brother...So, I'm not going to say I'm 100% right on that as far as referring to every brother. Maybe when you do your James genealogy you'd post it for us... hopefully.

Are you referring to the Vaughn family of Arkansas claims of being the James'? I ask because I'm only speaking of the Robert Sallee James Family of Kearney, MO and when you gave the dates and said Arkansas it made me think of them.

There are also at least two other Jesse James in this book that haven't come up yet.

Kace

Another "slight" twist in the geneology, perhaps. In my Ancestery thread so far, and I admit I have a long way to go, particularly since James was NOT blood kin. My gggm's second husband was Wiley Demoss, who is very well documented and was my gggf who died before I was born.
Anyway, James P. James was born 29 Nov., 1853 in Arkansas (no specific local given). He died 21 Mar., 1877 in Johnson, Texas, which is basically Johnson County and the towns of Cleburne and Burleson just south of Fort Worth. Pretty heavy Confederate country in that time period. He's buried there and there's a photo of his badly worn gravestone. James P James's father is listed as Johnson James, born 14 Dec., 1832 in Hickman, Tenn. He also died a young man in Johnson, Texas, on 19 Sept. 1864, obviously during the Civil War and apparently brought the family with him. He had a boat load of kids as most families did in those days.

I know THE James bunch was from all around Kearney, KC, St. Joe, etc. so maybe be a blind alley here. But Susan Parmer moved to Archer City and essentially died there. That sticks in my craw plus my family oral traditions.

I'm afraid we're way off topic here and I apologize for that. I do appreciate your comments though and I don't discount them in the least.

Question though. How is it the Find a Grave can be manipulated? Couldn't the same be said for Ancestry as well? That's a little troublesome for a serious researcher,

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Hey LC...Was there something specific on the Ancestry page you posted for us to look at?

Kace

CHARLEY BIGALOW, but don't waste your time....

 

[Kace]

Another "slight" twist in the geneology, perhaps. In my Ancestery thread so far, and I admit I have a long way to go, particularly since James was NOT blood kin. My gggm's second husband was Wiley Demoss, who is very well documented and was my gggf who died before I was born.
Anyway, James P. James was born 29 Nov., 1853 in Arkansas (no specific local given). He died 21 Mar., 1877 in Johnson, Texas, which is basically Johnson County and the towns of Cleburne and Burleson just south of Fort Worth. Pretty heavy Confederate country in that time period. He's buried there and there's a photo of his badly worn gravestone. James P James's father is listed as Johnson James, born 14 Dec., 1832 in Hickman, Tenn. He also died a young man in Johnson, Texas, on 19 Sept. 1864, obviously during the Civil War and apparently brought the family with him. He had a boat load of kids as most families did in those days.

I know THE James bunch was from all around Kearney, KC, St. Joe, etc. so maybe be a blind alley here. But Susan Parmer moved to Archer City and essentially died there. That sticks in my craw plus my family oral traditions.

I'm afraid we're way off topic here and I apologize for that. I do appreciate your comments though and I don't discount them in the least.

Question though. How is it the Find a Grave can be manipulated? Couldn't the same be said for Ancestry as well? That's a little troublesome for a serious researcher,

mbb...As far as off topic...it's gonna happen and if folks have a connection or a possible familial history to anyone discussed in this book I hope they share it like you did. To me that's not off topic.

With Find A Grave...Not only can it be manipulated by adding names or comments or by taking names away....It's Never been against the law or illegal anywhere to put Anything or Any Name on a Tombstone. The Only thing illegal about putting false information on anything concerning a death is if Anyone Profits from it like through life or other insurance, stocks or any investment or loan type payouts.

Years ago, anyone could just get up one day and decide to be some other name and start going by that name, no questions asked. Walk in and get a drivers license when those came about and even join the military under that new name. I knew that but didn't realize that even Death Certificates could reflect the New name the person chose. About 10yrs ago I was looking for a woman who died in the early '60's. I couldn't find her anywhere after '61. She had bought her own stone, casket and plot under a name other than her own and got a drivers license in that name...She was 22yrs old. So, when she died a few months later her Real Name was on Nothing official like a death certificate and the New Name and photo of the stone is on Find A Grave and the Death Certificate and autopsy report is under the New Name.

Your question about can Ancestry be manipulated?...Absolutely it can be and is. You're right it is troublesome for serious researchers who want the truth. . The only way to know for sure what's what is to verify independently what's claimed yourself using 3 different official records if possible...on each person.

There's a lot of false claims about famous or infamous people in books and gen forums. I'm not directing this at you at all and please don't take it that way, but some people intentionally go to great lengths to be related to an actor, outlaw, well known civil war participants or very wealthy and large influential dynasty type families like Rockefeller's, Roosevelts or DuPonts by putting false info on Find A Grave and Ancestry and at some point they get found out by making outrageous claims that a serious researcher will uncover. The bad thing is, someone comes around and reads these things, not always realizing they are lies and that stuff just keeps getting repeated....like has happened from some of the books that followed the Black Book.

Others unintentionally by hearing generational stories of course believe what their families have said, but rarely do you see them posting false information on any site. It happens but not a lot. They look into things and if there are questions in their mind about what they've heard, they research them to find out if they are true or not. That's pretty easy to do now.

I'm interested in hearing what you find out on your history and look forward to you participating in this thread.

Kace

 

[Kace]

CHARLEY BIGALOW, but don't waste your time....

Gotcha...I won't look again or again or again! lol!

Kace

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Sorry for stepping out of topic here...Are there some records somewhere that state everyone that was in the KGC? I've seen where someone said All of Quantrills guys were KGC...I know that's wrong for a fact.

I also know there's Not any written records of Jesse or Frank James being Mason's....I talked to a very knowledgeable Mason just last week who's done a lot of historical research on KGC, Outlaws, Civil War and Masonic Events during that time.

There are No Written Records on either of them being Mason's, Not even at the Temple in DC. But, he did say that it's possible that any lodge wouldn't of wanted to advertise the fact they had been made at sight or were members of a lodge due to their outlaw notoriety. That made sense to me....Not to the point it's an Absolute without confirmation, but I could see where that might be the case. I hadn't thought of it that way.

So with your ancestor being initiated into a military lodge on sight, was he added later to the lodge books? How does that work? Very Cool you found him there!!

Thanks Walker,
Kace

Honestly, would you want this to be a poster child for your upstanding secret society made up of outstanding citzens, lawyers, judges, buisnessmen, and bankers?



HELL NO!

Why that would be like hiring a hitman and admitting you bought him GUNS and BULLETS


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/kgc/381439-john-brown-told-who-kill-radical-republicans.html

No honest upstanding political or secret society or club wants to admit what they are capable of when it comes to money!

L.C.

 

[sdcfia]

Who is the silent partner? It is not London or Brewer or Getler or are you referring to Jesse James III?

Neither a real or alleged James relative nor a person anyone reading these posts has ever heard of. He was anonymous and his identity is irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with you about Gelter not helping much. Do you have a copy of the original Small book that Brewer did Before Gelter?

Are you talking about Vickery being the silent partner?

Kace

Yes, I have his self-written "Forbidden Knowledge - The Story of the Knights of the Golden Circle" (Ouachita Treasure Publications, 1994, 52 pages). I liked it.

I've never heard of anyone named Vickery.

 

[Kace]

Yes, I have his self-written "Forbidden Knowledge - The Story of the Knights of the Golden Circle" (Ouachita Treasure Publications, 1994, 52 pages). I liked it.

I've never heard of anyone named Vickery.

He worked with London and Brewer and was involved as a witness between Brewer and Griffith after that trespassing fiasco with Griffith and the Gillespie Sisters property.

He's rarely mentioned in anything...Is why I asked if he was the silent partner you spoke of.

Kace

 

[uglymailman]

Wow. Get a wk. behind on this thread & it takes awhile to catch up. Sorry (again) for being late but here goes to the prior posts.
Kace, did you say JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Eng.? I doubt that as he was just 17 or 18 when the Unpleasntness between the States started. No doubt well educated for the time and his local but not a Civil Engineer. Most of them came from West Point in those days. Cole says his parents wanted to send him away to school at the time he left home, his words. So that being said, I'd take anything that guy say's with a big grain of salt.
L.C.- Which came first, KCG or OAK? I remember reading (maybe Edwards, another I take with a big grain of salt) that OAK went to visit Gen. Sterling Price C.S.A.in Ark. to put pressure on him to invade Missouri.

There were more than a few in Western Mo. during the war that survived because of the flashing of Masonic signs. This was true for prisoners from both sides involving the Union and Partisan Rangers. Redlegs (from Kansas) were another matter.

et al- Merry Christmas!

 

[mbb]

mbb...As far as off topic...it's gonna happen and if folks have a connection or a possible familial history to anyone discussed in this book I hope they share it like you did. To me that's not off topic.

With Find A Grave...Not only can it be manipulated by adding names or comments or by taking names away....It's Never been against the law or illegal anywhere to put Anything or Any Name on a Tombstone. The Only thing illegal about putting false information on anything concerning a death is if Anyone Profits from it like through life or other insurance, stocks or any investment or loan type payouts.

Years ago, anyone could just get up one day and decide to be some other name and start going by that name, no questions asked. Walk in and get a drivers license when those came about and even join the military under that new name. I knew that but didn't realize that even Death Certificates could reflect the New name the person chose. About 10yrs ago I was looking for a woman who died in the early '60's. I couldn't find her anywhere after '61. She had bought her own stone, casket and plot under a name other than her own and got a drivers license in that name...She was 22yrs old. So, when she died a few months later her Real Name was on Nothing official like a death certificate and the New Name and photo of the stone is on Find A Grave and the Death Certificate and autopsy report is under the New Name.

Your question about can Ancestry be manipulated?...Absolutely it can be and is. You're right it is troublesome for serious researchers who want the truth. . The only way to know for sure what's what is to verify independently what's claimed yourself using 3 different official records if possible...on each person.

There's a lot of false claims about famous or infamous people in books and gen forums. I'm not directing this at you at all and please don't take it that way, but some people intentionally go to great lengths to be related to an actor, outlaw, well known civil war participants or very wealthy and large influential dynasty type families like Rockefeller's, Roosevelts or DuPonts by putting false info on Find A Grave and Ancestry and at some point they get found out by making outrageous claims that a serious researcher will uncover. The bad thing is, someone comes around and reads these things, not always realizing they are lies and that stuff just keeps getting repeated....like has happened from some of the books that followed the Black Book.

Others unintentionally by hearing generational stories of course believe what their families have said, but rarely do you see them posting false information on any site. It happens but not a lot. They look into things and if there are questions in their mind about what they've heard, they research them to find out if they are true or not. That's pretty easy to do now.

I'm interested in hearing what you find out on your history and look forward to you participating in this thread.

Kace

Well, I'm not the type to beat my chest about famous or infamous people especially a psychotic killer like Jesse James. So far, I only know (1) gggm marriage to James James was real, (2) he died young, they had three kids, and his gravestone is in Cleburne, Texas (3) without some clear reasoning Susan James lived in Archer City and is buried in Wichita Falls, (4) family oral tradition says the James often visited their sister in town and my gggm and Frank as well after Jesse was dead or hiding. I am just learning about Ancestry. At first I was disappointed that a lot of history is NOT attached to the every spreading tree, but in view of your comments about falsification perhaps that's a good thing. History is going to be a lot harder to dig out and verify. My real interest in the KGC originated with Brewer's book which I've already said dwindled IMHO towards the end into outrageous claims of black helicopters hovering around the Superstition Mountains. Jesse and Frank are something of a sideshow only because their sister and my gggm lived in the same town which sure isn't the garden spot of Texas. Why?? So, it appears that Ancestry and bonafide historical research are parallel tracks but care must be taken not to cross the information without some kind of proof. I have yet to access Ancestry's link to newspapers, so that may be next. Good grief, it would be a lot easier to just go out an pan some gold on a Montana creek, eh? I can't believe there's any KGC up here in the northern Rockies anyway...…………..but open minds are a necessity. BTW, Merry Christmas and God Bless

 

[Kace]

Wow. Get a wk. behind on this thread & it takes awhile to catch up. Sorry (again) for being late but here goes to the prior posts.
Kace, did you say JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Eng.? I doubt that as he was just 17 or 18 when the Unpleasntness between the States started. No doubt well educated for the time and his local but not a Civil Engineer. Most of them came from West Point in those days. Cole says his parents wanted to send him away to school at the time he left home, his words. So that being said, I'd take anything that guy say's with a big grain of salt.
L.C.- Which came first, KCG or OAK? I remember reading (maybe Edwards, another I take with a big grain of salt) that OAK went to visit Gen. Sterling Price C.S.A.in Ark. to put pressure on him to invade Missouri.

There were more than a few in Western Mo. during the war that survived because of the flashing of Masonic signs. This was true for prisoners from both sides involving the Union and Partisan Rangers. Redlegs (from Kansas) were another matter.

et al- Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas To You!

Yes, I did say that JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Engineer and also he said that Cole Younger was Jesse W. James Brother In Law. I agree with you're reply to that..

Your question to Baker on KGC and OAK...KGC turned into OAK..OR it can be looked at as the same thing but with OAK being CFO's and Upper Management so to speak. I didn't know if he saw your question here. He will explain that better I'm sure when he sees it.

Did you see my post about Cole Younger's home in LS on the other thread? I was hoping you'd see that...Unbelievable!!

Kace

 

[Kace]

Well, I'm not the type to beat my chest about famous or infamous people especially a psychotic killer like Jesse James. So far, I only know (1) gggm marriage to James James was real, (2) he died young, they had three kids, and his gravestone is in Cleburne, Texas (3) without some clear reasoning Susan James lived in Archer City and is buried in Wichita Falls, (4) family oral tradition says the James often visited their sister in town and my gggm and Frank as well after Jesse was dead or hiding. I am just learning about Ancestry. At first I was disappointed that a lot of history is NOT attached to the every spreading tree, but in view of your comments about falsification perhaps that's a good thing. History is going to be a lot harder to dig out and verify. My real interest in the KGC originated with Brewer's book which I've already said dwindled IMHO towards the end into outrageous claims of black helicopters hovering around the Superstition Mountains. Jesse and Frank are something of a sideshow only because their sister and my gggm lived in the same town which sure isn't the garden spot of Texas. Why?? So, it appears that Ancestry and bonafide historical research are parallel tracks but care must be taken not to cross the information without some kind of proof. I have yet to access Ancestry's link to newspapers, so that may be next. Good grief, it would be a lot easier to just go out an pan some gold on a Montana creek, eh? I can't believe there's any KGC up here in the northern Rockies anyway...…………..but open minds are a necessity. BTW, Merry Christmas and God Bless

I Never Ever took you for the Chest Beating claim to fame type by being related to anyone well known! lol!

I took it by your posts you were going to start your genealogy and build your family tree and I just wanted to point out what hazards are there especially on sites where's there's folks who want attention and are obsessed with someone or some family.

No kidding...Just on Jesse James....if you posted an invite for 25 people that you've met on civil war, outlaw and genealogy forums to meet you at Jesse James grave at a certain time and they all RSVP'd they would be there...Maybe 5 would be at the grave where You were waiting for them! lol! The rest would be at other graves that they thought were his. It's That bad on some of these people with all of the claims and imposters. It's not just Jesse James, there's others too but you see what I mean I'm sure.

There's a site you might know about called Stray Leaves.. it's a blog type of site maintained by the Jesse Woodson James Family of Kearney, MO. They don't have forum discussions like here, they just post news, book reviews and event type of things. They have a section there where you can enter a surname and it will show you any links to that family That Have Been Discovered to this point in time. But even with that... if the name(s) you enter do or do not come up...still do the research because like any site like that there still could be some errors... it's a start though.

I'm not sure why the Parmer's went to Texas... there were a lot of Confederates that did though. He was with Quantrill at a very young age and it seemed like many who were with him at times settled or went to Jackson County, MO and farther South in Missouri and on down to Texas. I didn't see where he had previous ties there, I didn't look really deep into it though. It will be interesting to see what you find out. Land Records might be a good place to start to see if that could of been a reason...Archer County wasn't a huge metropolis like you said and it isn't a wealthy type of area.

Stay tuned to this book... might be a reason in there, never know.

Merry Christmas!

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I think since you referenced it....You should contact him if you think he might have something relevent and if you take this guy as a serious researcher.

I think he's a Joker writer like Darrell that talks about legends and obscure things folks might see off the beaten path on road trips like the Worlds Largest Pecan and Worlds Largest Ball of String...He writes for entertainment, not factual information and even says that on his blog.

Let us know what he says....Unless it's where to find the Worlds Largest Walnut. lol!

Kace

Nah... won't do it. YOU have the info to DEBUNK him; HH! Good Luck! Have FUN!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

CHARLEY BIGALOW, but don't waste your time....

BIGALOW…? LOL!

 

[mbb]

I Never Ever took you for the Chest Beating claim to fame type by being related to anyone well known! lol!

I took it by your posts you were going to start your genealogy and build your family tree and I just wanted to point out what hazards are there especially on sites where's there's folks who want attention and are obsessed with someone or some family.

No kidding...Just on Jesse James....if you posted an invite for 25 people that you've met on civil war, outlaw and genealogy forums to meet you at Jesse James grave at a certain time and they all RSVP'd they would be there...Maybe 5 would be at the grave where You were waiting for them! lol! The rest would be at other graves that they thought were his. It's That bad on some of these people with all of the claims and imposters. It's not just Jesse James, there's others too but you see what I mean I'm sure.

There's a site you might know about called Stray Leaves.. it's a blog type of site maintained by the Jesse Woodson James Family of Kearney, MO. They don't have forum discussions like here, they just post news, book reviews and event type of things. They have a section there where you can enter a surname and it will show you any links to that family That Have Been Discovered to this point in time. But even with that... if the name(s) you enter do or do not come up...still do the research because like any site like that there still could be some errors... it's a start though.

I'm not sure why the Parmer's went to Texas... there were a lot of Confederates that did though. He was with Quantrill at a very young age and it seemed like many who were with him at times settled or went to Jackson County, MO and farther South in Missouri and on down to Texas. I didn't see where he had previous ties there, I didn't look really deep into it though. It will be interesting to see what you find out. Land Records might be a good place to start to see if that could of been a reason...Archer County wasn't a huge metropolis like you said and it isn't a wealthy type of area.

Stay tuned to this book... might be a reason in there, never know.

Merry Christmas!

Kace

A couple of good leads which I will check out. Thank you very much. Two or three years ago I watched the History Channel show on the Jesse James. So, here it is Christmas Eve and I find it on YouTube, so I watch it again with a more critical eye. Surprise, surprise, Ron Pastore is the star attraction which you've already mentioned a few pages back. Dr. Rousch also gets honorable mention. More interesting to me is that this search location in central Kansas was on land owned by the Parmer family or their heirs. The lack of DNA evidence from 1995 exhumation was disappointing, but 23 years later maybe technology is to the point of a re-evaluation. Also the facial recognition software I thought left something to be desired in comparing Jeremiah James in Kansas as an older Jesse. All of this may not matter since it now appears that the KGC was valid and more than one of their stashes have been uncovered. Funny thing is that on both sides of my family they were all from either Clay County of Ray County Missouri...………...all border ruffians and undoubtedly both reb and yankee. It is academic for the moment unless some information connects the KGC activities with Montana or Wyoming. My family situation will not allow me wander all over Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, or Kansas looking for KGC bullion. Did Pastore ever find in thing in the big hole he was digging? Apparently not or we'd have hear about it. In the end, it's not about the money. At age 71 I really don't need it, but hey, I'm not crazy to turn it down either. Old Forest Fenn said it best...………...it's the thrill of the chase. (Something else I've studied rather extensively and it's closer to home. I appreciate the pointers.