Jesse James Was One Of His Names...Black Book Discussion - Page 7
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  1. #91
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Who is the silent partner? It is not London or Brewer or Getler or are you referring to Jesse James III?
    Neither a real or alleged James relative nor a person anyone reading these posts has ever heard of. He was anonymous and his identity is irrelevant to the conversation.
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  2. #92
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I agree with you about Gelter not helping much. Do you have a copy of the original Small book that Brewer did Before Gelter?

    Are you talking about Vickery being the silent partner?

    Kace
    Yes, I have his self-written "Forbidden Knowledge - The Story of the Knights of the Golden Circle" (Ouachita Treasure Publications, 1994, 52 pages). I liked it.

    I've never heard of anyone named Vickery.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    Yes, I have his self-written "Forbidden Knowledge - The Story of the Knights of the Golden Circle" (Ouachita Treasure Publications, 1994, 52 pages). I liked it.

    I've never heard of anyone named Vickery.
    He worked with London and Brewer and was involved as a witness between Brewer and Griffith after that trespassing fiasco with Griffith and the Gillespie Sisters property.

    He's rarely mentioned in anything...Is why I asked if he was the silent partner you spoke of.

    Kace
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  4. #94
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    Wow. Get a wk. behind on this thread & it takes awhile to catch up. Sorry (again) for being late but here goes to the prior posts.
    Kace, did you say JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Eng.? I doubt that as he was just 17 or 18 when the Unpleasntness between the States started. No doubt well educated for the time and his local but not a Civil Engineer. Most of them came from West Point in those days. Cole says his parents wanted to send him away to school at the time he left home, his words. So that being said, I'd take anything that guy say's with a big grain of salt.
    L.C.- Which came first, KCG or OAK? I remember reading (maybe Edwards, another I take with a big grain of salt) that OAK went to visit Gen. Sterling Price C.S.A.in Ark. to put pressure on him to invade Missouri.

    There were more than a few in Western Mo. during the war that survived because of the flashing of Masonic signs. This was true for prisoners from both sides involving the Union and Partisan Rangers. Redlegs (from Kansas) were another matter.

    et al- Merry Christmas!
    Last edited by uglymailman; Dec 24, 2018 at 12:21 PM.
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  5. #95
    mbb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    mbb...As far as off topic...it's gonna happen and if folks have a connection or a possible familial history to anyone discussed in this book I hope they share it like you did. To me that's not off topic.

    With Find A Grave...Not only can it be manipulated by adding names or comments or by taking names away....It's Never been against the law or illegal anywhere to put Anything or Any Name on a Tombstone. The Only thing illegal about putting false information on anything concerning a death is if Anyone Profits from it like through life or other insurance, stocks or any investment or loan type payouts.

    Years ago, anyone could just get up one day and decide to be some other name and start going by that name, no questions asked. Walk in and get a drivers license when those came about and even join the military under that new name. I knew that but didn't realize that even Death Certificates could reflect the New name the person chose. About 10yrs ago I was looking for a woman who died in the early '60's. I couldn't find her anywhere after '61. She had bought her own stone, casket and plot under a name other than her own and got a drivers license in that name...She was 22yrs old. So, when she died a few months later her Real Name was on Nothing official like a death certificate and the New Name and photo of the stone is on Find A Grave and the Death Certificate and autopsy report is under the New Name.

    Your question about can Ancestry be manipulated?...Absolutely it can be and is. You're right it is troublesome for serious researchers who want the truth. . The only way to know for sure what's what is to verify independently what's claimed yourself using 3 different official records if possible...on each person.

    There's a lot of false claims about famous or infamous people in books and gen forums. I'm not directing this at you at all and please don't take it that way, but some people intentionally go to great lengths to be related to an actor, outlaw, well known civil war participants or very wealthy and large influential dynasty type families like Rockefeller's, Roosevelts or DuPonts by putting false info on Find A Grave and Ancestry and at some point they get found out by making outrageous claims that a serious researcher will uncover. The bad thing is, someone comes around and reads these things, not always realizing they are lies and that stuff just keeps getting repeated....like has happened from some of the books that followed the Black Book.

    Others unintentionally by hearing generational stories of course believe what their families have said, but rarely do you see them posting false information on any site. It happens but not a lot. They look into things and if there are questions in their mind about what they've heard, they research them to find out if they are true or not. That's pretty easy to do now.

    I'm interested in hearing what you find out on your history and look forward to you participating in this thread.

    Kace
    Well, I'm not the type to beat my chest about famous or infamous people especially a psychotic killer like Jesse James. So far, I only know (1) gggm marriage to James James was real, (2) he died young, they had three kids, and his gravestone is in Cleburne, Texas (3) without some clear reasoning Susan James lived in Archer City and is buried in Wichita Falls, (4) family oral tradition says the James often visited their sister in town and my gggm and Frank as well after Jesse was dead or hiding. I am just learning about Ancestry. At first I was disappointed that a lot of history is NOT attached to the every spreading tree, but in view of your comments about falsification perhaps that's a good thing. History is going to be a lot harder to dig out and verify. My real interest in the KGC originated with Brewer's book which I've already said dwindled IMHO towards the end into outrageous claims of black helicopters hovering around the Superstition Mountains. Jesse and Frank are something of a sideshow only because their sister and my gggm lived in the same town which sure isn't the garden spot of Texas. Why?? So, it appears that Ancestry and bonafide historical research are parallel tracks but care must be taken not to cross the information without some kind of proof. I have yet to access Ancestry's link to newspapers, so that may be next. Good grief, it would be a lot easier to just go out an pan some gold on a Montana creek, eh? I can't believe there's any KGC up here in the northern Rockies anyway...…………..but open minds are a necessity. BTW, Merry Christmas and God Bless
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Wow. Get a wk. behind on this thread & it takes awhile to catch up. Sorry (again) for being late but here goes to the prior posts.
    Kace, did you say JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Eng.? I doubt that as he was just 17 or 18 when the Unpleasntness between the States started. No doubt well educated for the time and his local but not a Civil Engineer. Most of them came from West Point in those days. Cole says his parents wanted to send him away to school at the time he left home, his words. So that being said, I'd take anything that guy say's with a big grain of salt.
    L.C.- Which came first, KCG or OAK? I remember reading (maybe Edwards, another I take with a big grain of salt) that OAK went to visit Gen. Sterling Price C.S.A.in Ark. to put pressure on him to invade Missouri.

    There were more than a few in Western Mo. during the war that survived because of the flashing of Masonic signs. This was true for prisoners from both sides involving the Union and Partisan Rangers. Redlegs (from Kansas) were another matter.

    et al- Merry Christmas!
    Merry Christmas To You!

    Yes, I did say that JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Engineer and also he said that Cole Younger was Jesse W. James Brother In Law. I agree with you're reply to that..

    Your question to Baker on KGC and OAK...KGC turned into OAK..OR it can be looked at as the same thing but with OAK being CFO's and Upper Management so to speak. I didn't know if he saw your question here. He will explain that better I'm sure when he sees it.

    Did you see my post about Cole Younger's home in LS on the other thread? I was hoping you'd see that...Unbelievable!!

    Kace

  7. #97
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    Kace

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbb View Post
    Well, I'm not the type to beat my chest about famous or infamous people especially a psychotic killer like Jesse James. So far, I only know (1) gggm marriage to James James was real, (2) he died young, they had three kids, and his gravestone is in Cleburne, Texas (3) without some clear reasoning Susan James lived in Archer City and is buried in Wichita Falls, (4) family oral tradition says the James often visited their sister in town and my gggm and Frank as well after Jesse was dead or hiding. I am just learning about Ancestry. At first I was disappointed that a lot of history is NOT attached to the every spreading tree, but in view of your comments about falsification perhaps that's a good thing. History is going to be a lot harder to dig out and verify. My real interest in the KGC originated with Brewer's book which I've already said dwindled IMHO towards the end into outrageous claims of black helicopters hovering around the Superstition Mountains. Jesse and Frank are something of a sideshow only because their sister and my gggm lived in the same town which sure isn't the garden spot of Texas. Why?? So, it appears that Ancestry and bonafide historical research are parallel tracks but care must be taken not to cross the information without some kind of proof. I have yet to access Ancestry's link to newspapers, so that may be next. Good grief, it would be a lot easier to just go out an pan some gold on a Montana creek, eh? I can't believe there's any KGC up here in the northern Rockies anyway...…………..but open minds are a necessity. BTW, Merry Christmas and God Bless
    I Never Ever took you for the Chest Beating claim to fame type by being related to anyone well known! lol!

    I took it by your posts you were going to start your genealogy and build your family tree and I just wanted to point out what hazards are there especially on sites where's there's folks who want attention and are obsessed with someone or some family.

    No kidding...Just on Jesse James....if you posted an invite for 25 people that you've met on civil war, outlaw and genealogy forums to meet you at Jesse James grave at a certain time and they all RSVP'd they would be there...Maybe 5 would be at the grave where You were waiting for them! lol! The rest would be at other graves that they thought were his. It's That bad on some of these people with all of the claims and imposters. It's not just Jesse James, there's others too but you see what I mean I'm sure.

    There's a site you might know about called Stray Leaves.. it's a blog type of site maintained by the Jesse Woodson James Family of Kearney, MO. They don't have forum discussions like here, they just post news, book reviews and event type of things. They have a section there where you can enter a surname and it will show you any links to that family That Have Been Discovered to this point in time. But even with that... if the name(s) you enter do or do not come up...still do the research because like any site like that there still could be some errors... it's a start though.

    I'm not sure why the Parmer's went to Texas... there were a lot of Confederates that did though. He was with Quantrill at a very young age and it seemed like many who were with him at times settled or went to Jackson County, MO and farther South in Missouri and on down to Texas. I didn't see where he had previous ties there, I didn't look really deep into it though. It will be interesting to see what you find out. Land Records might be a good place to start to see if that could of been a reason...Archer County wasn't a huge metropolis like you said and it isn't a wealthy type of area.

    Stay tuned to this book... might be a reason in there, never know.

    Merry Christmas!

    Kace
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  8. #98

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I think since you referenced it....You should contact him if you think he might have something relevent and if you take this guy as a serious researcher.

    I think he's a Joker writer like Darrell that talks about legends and obscure things folks might see off the beaten path on road trips like the Worlds Largest Pecan and Worlds Largest Ball of String...He writes for entertainment, not factual information and even says that on his blog.

    Let us know what he says....Unless it's where to find the Worlds Largest Walnut. lol!

    Kace
    Nah... won't do it. YOU have the info to DEBUNK him; HH! Good Luck! Have FUN!
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  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    CHARLEY BIGALOW, but don't waste your time....
    BIGALOW…? LOL!
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  10. #100
    mbb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kace View Post
    I Never Ever took you for the Chest Beating claim to fame type by being related to anyone well known! lol!

    I took it by your posts you were going to start your genealogy and build your family tree and I just wanted to point out what hazards are there especially on sites where's there's folks who want attention and are obsessed with someone or some family.

    No kidding...Just on Jesse James....if you posted an invite for 25 people that you've met on civil war, outlaw and genealogy forums to meet you at Jesse James grave at a certain time and they all RSVP'd they would be there...Maybe 5 would be at the grave where You were waiting for them! lol! The rest would be at other graves that they thought were his. It's That bad on some of these people with all of the claims and imposters. It's not just Jesse James, there's others too but you see what I mean I'm sure.

    There's a site you might know about called Stray Leaves.. it's a blog type of site maintained by the Jesse Woodson James Family of Kearney, MO. They don't have forum discussions like here, they just post news, book reviews and event type of things. They have a section there where you can enter a surname and it will show you any links to that family That Have Been Discovered to this point in time. But even with that... if the name(s) you enter do or do not come up...still do the research because like any site like that there still could be some errors... it's a start though.

    I'm not sure why the Parmer's went to Texas... there were a lot of Confederates that did though. He was with Quantrill at a very young age and it seemed like many who were with him at times settled or went to Jackson County, MO and farther South in Missouri and on down to Texas. I didn't see where he had previous ties there, I didn't look really deep into it though. It will be interesting to see what you find out. Land Records might be a good place to start to see if that could of been a reason...Archer County wasn't a huge metropolis like you said and it isn't a wealthy type of area.

    Stay tuned to this book... might be a reason in there, never know.

    Merry Christmas!

    Kace
    A couple of good leads which I will check out. Thank you very much. Two or three years ago I watched the History Channel show on the Jesse James. So, here it is Christmas Eve and I find it on YouTube, so I watch it again with a more critical eye. Surprise, surprise, Ron Pastore is the star attraction which you've already mentioned a few pages back. Dr. Rousch also gets honorable mention. More interesting to me is that this search location in central Kansas was on land owned by the Parmer family or their heirs. The lack of DNA evidence from 1995 exhumation was disappointing, but 23 years later maybe technology is to the point of a re-evaluation. Also the facial recognition software I thought left something to be desired in comparing Jeremiah James in Kansas as an older Jesse. All of this may not matter since it now appears that the KGC was valid and more than one of their stashes have been uncovered. Funny thing is that on both sides of my family they were all from either Clay County of Ray County Missouri...………...all border ruffians and undoubtedly both reb and yankee. It is academic for the moment unless some information connects the KGC activities with Montana or Wyoming. My family situation will not allow me wander all over Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, or Kansas looking for KGC bullion. Did Pastore ever find in thing in the big hole he was digging? Apparently not or we'd have hear about it. In the end, it's not about the money. At age 71 I really don't need it, but hey, I'm not crazy to turn it down either. Old Forest Fenn said it best...………...it's the thrill of the chase. (Something else I've studied rather extensively and it's closer to home. I appreciate the pointers.

  11. #101
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    Kace

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    Anything I can help with just ask...I remember starting my family genealogy and some of the things that a person runs into. Sometimes it's worse now and sometimes better.

    I didn't realize any of the Allen Parmer family were associated with the land in Kansas Pastore supposedly did that show on..or that any KGC caches had been found.

    You'll probably get a few different opinions about that show on here. There were a couple active members who I haven't seen here for awhile who one of them at least actually worked the Jere Miah James property with Pastore... He swears that where that jar with the coins was found was a plant for the show. If you watch it slowly or repeat it several times you can see there's no aging to it. This guy is a serious type of treasure hunter. He wouldn't associate himself anymore with Pastore after seeing some of the things he did and said. If you go back to the first part of the KGC forum here, you can read it. The guy is still active in treasure hunting. I think that show was done in 2009 if I remember right. No.. he didn't dig the last few feet to what he claimed was buried KGC treasure. He was hoping for another show and after what happened with the family and Kurtis seeing him for what he is...It Didn't Happen.

    My issues with Pastore are him repeating and adding to the lies in the BB. To me he's a modern day Howk just scamming people any chance he can. He wants attention through any means he can get it and make money on the tall tales.

    That being said, I did for awhile think that since the resemblance of Jere Miah James gGrandson to JWJ was so amazing that there had to be some sort of familial relationship. I have researched that family though and after doing that I'm convinced along with most of his family there is no kinship. That was disappointing! They also have been in legal issues with Pastore over his actions. You might be able to find that online.

    There were 15 scientists along with Professor Starr's who said that the DNA that was submitted and compared was consistent to JWJ's....But.. that body was buried in 1882, exhumed and re buried in 1902, exhumed and re buried in 1978 and exhumed again for DNA testing in 1995. There was Never a chain of handling/custody. There will Never be any type of testing that cannot be challenged. At the 1978 exhumation...that was a rotted wooden casket with the glass pane window above what would be the facial area. It was broken of course but the glass shards were clearly visible. I only mention these things to show that where everyone says the DNA testing was screwed up and some say conspiracy...There was no way it could be absolute. No Way. 3 exhumations and nothing done to protect anything?? I thought the '95 exhumation for testing was ridiculous to do.

    In the BB there are things said about Montana...due to JJ3 claiming JWJ was Senator William Andrews Clark...Copper King.

    I agree...it's about the thrill of the chase and hunting...I just like to do it as fact based as possible! lol! Others don't and that's fine too... it just muddies the waters when false statements, non existent people and claims are thrown out as facts for those who take it seriously.

    There are several serious KGC researchers and hunters participating in this thread and I'm sure when we get to those parts they will chime in. They have this book too, but have done some major KGC/CSA research and hunting from other sources.

    Kace
    Last edited by Kace; Dec 25, 2018 at 10:02 AM.

  12. #102
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    According to JJ3 while talking to his schoolmate and lawyer TT Crittenden, Brother in Law Cole Younger and Brother Dr Franklin Sylvester James, JWJ was urging TTC to run for Governor and gave him $35k in cash and a $35k bank draft and discussing his troubles with Jay Gould and the non existent Charlie Bigelow who he says was living in the St, Joe Home on Lafayette St as Thomas Howard.

    JJ3 says they were planning the killing of the Bigelow brothers and that Charlie would be used in his place to fake JWJ's death... JJ3 says Bigelow aka Howard was under surveillance by one of JWJ detectives Elmer Johnson who lived across the street from the Lafayette St house.
    (I've not found anything on Elmer Johnson from 1882). In the book his character was a RR man and also a stonemason.

    According to JJ3, Jay Gould and JWJ knew each other well and says Gould would come to the James Plantation House in Kentucky and that he sold thimbles and thread.

    The next character to show up is Bud Dalton who JJ3 says is JWJ's UNCLE and also is Lewis Dalton's Brother who "spawned the 10 brothers who made up the Dalton gang" and is part of the team who killed the Bigelow brothers along with Black John Trammell, General JO Shelby and Bob and Charlie Ford, their father and black jockey Luclry Johnson....5 other black gunslingers, 9 Indians and 2 Garrett brothers along with 12 railroad detectives, 3 Curtis brothers, Will ?, Two Howk brothers, Obediah and Harry from Kentucky, Cyclone Denton, Roy Baxter, Theodore Herbert, and the Overton Brothers. Oh and a Union Drummer Boy Frank Mayer who was at the Battle of Little Big Horn...Under the name of Lt. Frank Crowe.

    Lotta Names and there are several Indian Names I didn't mention.

    Kace

    Merry Christmas!
    Last edited by Kace; Dec 25, 2018 at 10:00 AM.
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  13. #103
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    Did you all decide where J James is buried at ?
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  14. #104
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    Kace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sallysue View Post
    Did you all decide where J James is buried at ?
    No, this thread pretty much is just about the BB, official records and the claims and characters in the book.

    Kace
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymailman View Post
    Wow. Get a wk. behind on this thread & it takes awhile to catch up. Sorry (again) for being late but here goes to the prior posts.
    Kace, did you say JJ3 said Cole Younger was a Civil Eng.? I doubt that as he was just 17 or 18 when the Unpleasntness between the States started. No doubt well educated for the time and his local but not a Civil Engineer. Most of them came from West Point in those days. Cole says his parents wanted to send him away to school at the time he left home, his words. So that being said, I'd take anything that guy say's with a big grain of salt.
    L.C.- Which came first, KCG or OAK? I remember reading (maybe Edwards, another I take with a big grain of salt) that OAK went to visit Gen. Sterling Price C.S.A.in Ark. to put pressure on him to invade Missouri.

    There were more than a few in Western Mo. during the war that survived because of the flashing of Masonic signs. This was true for prisoners from both sides involving the Union and Partisan Rangers. Redlegs (from Kansas) were another matter.

    et al- Merry Christmas!
    Merry Christmas Everyone!

    I agree 100% with your statement in your first paragraph. In answer to the question which came first the K.G.C. or O.A.K. it was the K.G.C. I believe in 1863 very close to the time that Clement Vallandigham was released from P.O.W. and booted South of the Mason Dixon by Abe Lincoln. The K.G.C. was being exposed beyond expectation at that time, and there was a meeting that took place in Richmond with Jefferson Davis and others to change the name of the K.G.C. and cut ties with the chain of command of the K.G.C. forming a new one for the O.A.K. members who made the transfer. There was an internal split after that when the O.A.K. went through a similar situation in the late 1890s. I believe it was at that time that the name O.A.K. was changed again as well as trimming the fat and restructuring the society into a much more financial type of "organization" or "syndicate?" capable of controlling the masses on a global scale. Along the way things happened with perfectly good explanations....... , but I don't want to redirect this thread any further.

    L.C.

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    "HISTORY IS A PACK OF LIES AGREED UPON " Napoleon Bonaparte

 

 
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