Jesse's possible role with the KGC

[magnsdad]

Ok fellas I hate to start a fight but I would like real feedback on my opinion. If it is a bad opinion please feel free to shoot some hole in it but please be cordial. In doing reasearch I have come to the conclusion that Jesse could not have gathered all the KGC treasure and took the time to cache it in all 50 states. Even two Jesse's and two Frank's could not have done it. This does not mean they were not part of the KGC inner circle. If there job was to simply gather the gold then give it to a local KGC castle to cache, then this would explain a lot of things. This would explain why the treasure's all seem to have different clues to locate them. If they were caught they would not be able to give the location to any caches. They could spend their time doing what they were good at and let the local castles guard the treasures and retrieve it when the war was restarted. They could make contact with a castle make plans and use the local's knowledge roads, trails, stage coach times, bank layouts, train times and even places to hide out. This seems to be a better plan than to do the robbery, carry the treasure hundreds of miles, spend weeks making a proper cache site all the while having to get supplies and food. The locals would have time to do the necessary work while the Sheriff was looking for Jesse and he would be long gone. Just a idea that I hope gives everyone something to think about but I believe it makes a lot of sence without detracting to much from Jesse. All the best Roger

[Rebel - KGC]

Yo! Rebel here: HAW!!! Well, I think you are VERY close... IF Jesse, et. al. were FREEMASONS, or KNIGHTS (GC), as was the "townpeople" of the various "locations"; the Law (Sheriff, et. al.) were ALL related by The Code of Honor (aka "Honor Code"... ...), of the "Family" (FreeMasons/Knights of the late 1870's, etc), then it explains why Jesse, et. al. got away with a LOT of stuff (especially when he was older), and the "LAW" wasn't all that much "in pursuit" in SOME areas of the mid-West. Did he bury it all? NAW... probably he and "copycats" did the murdering/stealing, and "townpeople" did the burying... meanwhile SOME Lawmen MAY have "looked the other way"... MHO ONLY... (singing... "WE ARE FAMILY"...).

[Hoss KGC]

Hi,
First, you have jumped to the conclusion that JJ was involved with the KGC. That alone will get people attacking you :-) I don't know if he was involved. I never read or came to the conclusion that he obtained and/or buried all the wealth that the KGC stashed. As wide spread as this is, there is just no way that could be the case.

Good luck,
Big Hoss

[Springfield]

It's all allegorical. The Black Book is a prime example of attributing a great deal of the organization's activities to one man. JJ coudn't possibly have assumed all the prominent identities and accomplished all the deeds that the Black Book claims. However, if all those people were themselves members of the organization (industrialists, bankers, politicians, etc.), it then becomes possible that the amount of wealth attributed to the 'KGC' may have been real. Don't make the mistake of pinning all this to one relatively obscure group or individual.

[Hoss KGC]

The book writer also helps to contribute with his big endorsement of the black book. But yes, I do attribute this group to most of what you find out there. I don't believe a lot of what people attribute to the Spanish and the like to be correct. I have my reasons. But hey, I'm no expert...
Good luck,
Big Hoss

[magnsdad]

Okay it sounds like I am missing a good book. What is the Black book? thanks Roger

[Hoss KGC]

Hi Roger,
It is out of print. I paid a lot of money for my copy. But good news, here it is online:

http://bwcpublishing.com/names/names.html

Good luck,
Big Hoss

[Mainedigger]

I am kinda new to all the Jesse James lore with the KGC etc., but did read an excellent book on Jesse (at least I thought it was good) it is called "Jesse James, the Last Rebel of the Civil War" by T. J. Stiles. I dpn;t recall the author mentioning anything about the KGC in the book though. Boatow..thanks for the link on the Black Book, I hadn;t heard of it before but looks like great reading.

[magnsdad]

I was hoping there was a book that I had missed. I have already read the book online several times. Roy Roush is mentioned in the credits. I called him and ordered his new book and in talking to him he told me some things about the writing of the book.

[morbiusandneo]

Boattow: Thanks for the link!! stvn. ...

Hi Roger,
It is out of print. I paid a lot of money for my copy. But good news, here it is online:

http://bwcpublishing.com/names/names.html

Good luck,
Boattow

[Smee]

Neat little program . . . Primo PDF will allow you to print those pages as PDF files. It installs to your computer and acts as another printer.

Print the first page (Table of Contents) to a PDF file, then when you print the 2nd, 3rd, etc. chapters just "append" them to the first one. At the end, you'll have the entire book in a single PDF file. It also works for Internet web pages.

You can get Primo PDF here: http://www.activepdf.com/

Hope it helps.

[Texas Jay]

I read Roy Roush's 3 KGC books last month and highly recommend them. T.J. Stiles is probably the worst source for true information about Jesse Woodson James. He's traditionalist to the core.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

[okietreasurehunter]

The worst source for true Jesse James information would be the Black Book. You need to ask Roy Roush about the Black Book sometime. Orvus Lee Howk aka Jesse James III was nothing more than a crook and lifelong scam artist. Even J Frank Dalton said he wasn't JJ the third.




http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

[Texas Jay]

Was Ola Everhard, John Trammell, Rudy Turilli, or Col. James Russell Davis "nothing more than a crook and lifelong scam artist."? The naysayers are always trying to paint Jesse W. James (aka Dalton) with the same brush that they paint Orvus Lee Howk with. Why is that? It's because I don't know anyone who has studied Howk very much who doesn't agree, at least in part, with your statement, okie, so attaching Howk to Jesse James (aka Dalton) is the easiest path to take. But it's not all about Howk or Del Schrader who wrote most of the book "Jesse James Was One of His Names" after Howk refused to provide him with the rest of the material he had been paid to furnish. How about John William Pierce, who signed a sworn and notarized statement saying he was "approximately two hundred feet" from the St. Joseph house on April 3, 1882 when you claim Jesse James was killed there? Was Mr. Pierce a crook and a scam artist too? Which of these witnesses also signed statements saying that the imposter John James was Jesse Woodson James. You said both "Dalton" and "John James" used the same people to testify for them. Now, maybe you can prove it.
~Texas Jay

[alec]

First off, and I just have to point it out, JJ was not killed at the Kearny house, that's where he was supposedly buried so if someone was 200 feet from the Kearney home the day JJ was supposedly killed they wouldn't be much of a witness. I'm sure that was just a typo on your part but we are talking about details here.

As far as J. Frank goes, what do you say about him pretending to be other people before he was pretending to be JJ? That seems a little odd don't you think? First he's the uncle of the Daltons, the he is Billy the Kid and then....... The fact that Dalton and Joe Hunter were in on a scam together to present Dalton as JJ would seem to indicate you can't trust the info from Dalton. Does it not bother you that Dalton gives a different birth place and birth date other than the known date and place for the reall JJ? If he is JJ then why give different birth information? Was he just to old and couldn't remember? Maybe, he was giving his real information thinking no one would bother to check and unfortunately they did!

Facial recognition clearly identifies the two men as different men.

[Texas Jay]

From:
From: "The Truth About Jesse James" by Rudy Turilli, 1967, Stanton, Missouri. Portion of the Ola Everhard article in this book. Posted at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

***

"...I had thought each time I read about Mr. Dalton, how much I would like to go
and talk with him and when I read that article I told my husband Aubrey that
that could be some of my kinfolks and that I was going to talk to mother about
it again, but she was out of town at the time so Aubrey and I just decided to
drive up to Dallas and visit him. To save time in Dallas, Aubrey called the
Major to inquire what hospital and learned that Mr. Dalton had left the hospital
in Centerville, Texas and was living alone in a hotel there in town, so on
Sunday, March 28, 1948 we drove down to Centerville and had no trouble in
finding the hotel. Aubrey went in and a few minutes later came back after me.
When I walked in the old gentleman's room and introductions were over, I said,
'Mr. Dalton, I am the granddaughter of James Anderson Underwood and Savannah
Elizabeth O'Daniel Underwood.' He replied, 'Is that a fact. I knew them well,
knew all their folks.' As I talked with the old gentleman I wanted so badly to
ask a lot of questions, but refrained from doing so. We stayed quite awhile and
we started to leave, he made me promise that we would be back to see him the
following Sunday. He was in bed with a broken hip. He certainly didn't look
like he could be 100 years old. His room was a corner room on the ground floor
and I noticed that his bed was located so that he could and did, see everyone
who entered. He was very nice and friendly, unusually jolly but I noticed he
was also cautious and alert.

The following Sunday, as I had promised, we went back down to visit with him
and while there, looking at some pictures he had, he told me that he was Marshal
for awhile in the Indian Territory around Ardmore. I ask when that was, and he
replied. 'Well, it was in 1894 and 1895.' And then I knew, this was the
Marshall that mother had told me about many times. And that Grandpa had said
was kinfolks, for his description fit the way mother had described him as well
as what he had said. Aubrey walked outside and was talking with the
acquaintance that had brought the old gentleman to Centerville and while we were
alone I said, 'Mr. Dalton, may I call you Uncle Frank? I'd so much rather than
to say Mr. Dalton.'

He quickly replied, 'Don't call me Mr. Dalton, that's not my name, never was,
and never will be. You understand?' I smiled and replied, 'Yes sir, Uncle
Frank.'

I ask him when his birthday was for I had read in the paper where he had
given it as being March 8. He grinned and replied, 'Oh, honey, I've had lots of
different birthdays but I'll tell you, my real birthday. It's September 5th.'

'You were born in Missouri, weren't you?' I asked and he replied, 'Yes, I was
born in Centerville, Missouri on the 5th day of September 1847, but the name of
the town was later changed to Kearney.'

We went to Centerville, Texas every Sunday for some time and then one Sunday
Uncle Frank, as I called him then, told me that he was going to leave there
before long. That he was going to have something to tell. We talked on awhile
and when we started to leave he said, 'Oh say Ola, I'll let you know when I
leave here and when I do, you come to me, you hear. I want you to be there with
me.' I said, 'Allright, you let me know.'..."

***

[alec]

So you have a guy using several names and several birth dates, all admitted to by the man himself. Just which one is real Wouldn't that be enough to make you look at this guy twice? That's exactly what Howk was doing. (just so you will have that connection)

[okietreasurehunter]

I hate to tell you this Jay but Dalton was already living in Lawton Oklahoma in March of 1948. Joe Hunter and partners started setting up this little scam in 1947. John Trammell later stated that dalton wasn't Jesse and if Ola said that she was visiting Dalton in Centerville when he in fact was living in Lawton that would mean she was a fraud as well. There are still people alive in Lawton who remember when Dalton was there. I talk to one of them on a regular basis.

[Texas Jay]

okie, it's easy to claim someone said this or said that but, when you do that, you need to back it up with something besides your own words like an affidavit, letter, or book. when using Jesse James' grave tag to make a point, should tell us where he got that photo and who owns the small grave marker now.
~Texas Jay

[alec]

Jay, I took that photo myself and it's none of your business who owns the marker now. That is one of several that were placed at the grave many, many years ago (you know, when J. Frank died) because they kept getting stolen. That one was found in the belongings of someone now deceased.