KGC Tunnels built after the War

[Texas Jay]

Boy, are you in for a big surprise in the next month. Didn't exist after the War, according to whom?
~Texas Jay

 

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[alec]

In the next month? Is there a KGC reunion I wasn't invited to?

As far as I know, the only people who say the KGC did exist after the war are the same ones that say the KGC buried billions of dollars of treasure in elaborate vaults for use in the future to start another war that didn't really happen because all of the KGC members got old and died without recovering one cent of any of the money ever buried.

 

[okietreasurehunter]

Jay you are using Orvus Lee Howks book to prove your THEORY about KGC tunnels under Brownwood, so proving Dalton/Howk as the frauds they were is staying with the topic. I haven't even discussed your tunnels. If I was to investigate how and when your tunnels were built you probably wouldn't like it. I know a number of tunnels were built in the 1920's during prohabition, probably by KGC moonshiners and gangsters. LOL.

 

[okietreasurehunter]

Jay, many towns and cities have tunnels under them. Some were built by Chinese imigrants, some by gangsters, some by business owners. To have a tunnel is nothing new. Look at our border with Mexico. Trying to prove that any tunnel was built by the KGC is like trying to prove KGC mega caches are real. There are a number of ways to get you in the ballpark of when they were built. You might even get an idea of where the workmen came from by their workmanship, but to prove a KGC connection is something else. I'd look at a Masonic connection before I'd say KGC. A little GPR work around the Lodge building, "assuming there is one", would get you started there. Also getting a date for when the building was built will get you an idea of a timeframe.

 

[Texas Jay]

The date the tunnels were built in Brownwood was around 1876, the Centennial. I have eyewitness accounts of very reputable people who have been in the KGC tunnel network here. The workmen were KGC stonemasons and miners who were brought in from Europe. Sorry to disappoint you but we had no population of Chinese immigrants, gangsters, and business owners would have had no reason nor funds to construct such an extensive network of tunnels as those under downtown Brownwood. Good try but no cigar.
Ron, please answer my question: Who says that the KGC did not survive the Civil War? Your opinions alone don't carry any weight.
~Texas Jay

 

[alec]

Well Jay, my opinion is just as good as yours and that's all your putting out there. You have no proof at all that the KGC built any tunnels after the war (or probably even during the war) or that the group existed after the Civil War or put any mega depositories in the ground for that matter. All of what you have said has been a re-hash of the stuff that was originally brought forth by Orvus Howk, a con man. If you do any research you will find that all of the historical accounts say that the KGC died out after the Civil War. And I'm not talking about books by Orvus Howk or Bob Brewer. The KGC died and remains dead!

KGC stone masons and miners that were brought in from europe?? America didn't have enough of it's own stone masons and the KGC had to import them from europe? Are you saying that these stone masons and miners were actually members of the KGC or just somebody hired to do the job? Where did the KGC get the money to do this with? It was after the Civil War and everybody was broke and, oh yea, THE KGC DIDN'T EXIST AFTER THE WAR!

 

[Texas Jay]

"If you do any research you will find that all of the historical accounts say that the KGC died out after the Civil War."

You are finally right about something. Yes, the KGC died out AFTER the War...51 years after the War in 1916.

I will not reply to any more of your nonsensical messages until you post at least one credible source that says the KGC did not exist after the Civil War ended. I've given many that say it did.
~Texas Jay

 

[alec]

You gave many that said they did? When? credible sources?? Everything you have quoted has come from Howk or one of the derivitives. Nothing credible about any of it.

 

[okietreasurehunter]

Jay, attention to detail. I didn't say the Chinese,gangsters, etc. built the tunnels in Brownwood. I was talking about tunnels under the many cities here in the U.S. I don't know anything about your tunnels. I'm sure it wouldn't take me long to find out if I so choose.

I do have one question. If the tunnels in Brownwood are so extensive why haven't you been in them yourself? Surely you could have gained permission and access to one of the many entrances that should be around town. I have been in a few tunnels myself. Be sure to test the air quality before you go roaming around in them.

 

[Hoss KGC]

It is a virtual loop of pseudo-babble. They never will pony up any reliable references, sources or validation. It is the same thing over and over again.

You've finally hit it on the head. It's not that we don't have it, it's just that we wont "pony up". I have proof but I choose not to find it important to show you, alec, and okie. The reason? Because in order to prove something to you guys would mean I'd have to reveal locations, names, and and a lot more. I don't tell my closest friends so why am I going to plaster it on a forum? It isn't worth it so go on non-believing or go and get your noses out of the books, and figure it out for yourselves. Just cause the scholarlies don't know it doesn't mean it isn't true. Who says I'm not a scholarly? I have a college degree. Is that good enough?

Look at Okie, asking Jay why he hasn't been in the tunnels himself? He has already made the assumption that Jay hasn't been in them. I never jumped to that conclusion. I even find some of the stuff Jay says difficult to believe. But I am not naive enough to believe that I know it all and have all the answers. Yet Okie has already decided with his biased views that Jay hasn't been in the tunnels. Who the heck knows besides Jay if he has been in a tunnel or not?!?! Geeez.

Okie, did you know I have pictures of a KGC vault? Do you believe the bible tree is a true KGC tree? If so, what do you think it says? If not, why do you think somebody did all that work scratching on it?

Personally, I don't know if there was one or two Jesses. I don't know if Dalton was Jesse. I don't know if Jesse was in the KGC. I don't know when he died or if he died. What I do know is who cares? What does that matter? If you are just plain interested in the history of Jesse, then by all means discuss it. But as to whether it validates or invalidates the "myths of the KGC" is again just plain naive and being a "know it all" once again.

What is the point of all the arguing? Can't we all just get along
Big Hoss

 

[okietreasurehunter]

Hoss,
It's a logical assumption on my part. Jay has stated that he knows of people who have been in the tunnels. He didn't say HE was in the tunnels. He also asked for a team to come in an investigate the tunnels. They would have to obtain permission to go into the tunnels themselves. Once again it would seem, IHO, that Jay doesn't have permission to go into these tunnels. To make you happy I'll ask Jay if he's been in the tunnels himself.

Jay have you been in the tunnels? If so you can describe the building method and materials used and I'll help you figure out where the workers came from. We can also figure out the source of the building materials used, etc. Stone masons had there own regional style. If there are any timbers we can take a cross section and see what year they were cut.

No, I do not think the Bible Tree is KGC and I'd look down by the creek. Then again it's already gone, right? I have scratched on trees just to leave my mark, so the reasons people scratch on trees are many. Trail markers, signs of love, just because they have a knife or hatched, treasure, etc.

If you say you have pictures of a KGC vault, then good for you. I've heard plenty of stories of what people have found or have pictures of. I've also seen many KGC signs that people have found that are nothing more than scrap iron or graffitti. I can't prove one way or another what you have or don't have, but I can prove Dalton wasn't Jesse. Kentucky census records prove that the two Jesse and Frank James story wasn't true. Howk had to keep adding to the stories to cover the lies. Why are his last two books written way after Dalton died so different than "Jesse James Rides Again" written while Dalton was still kicking? Logic would only dictate that with so much information proving Dalton a fake, compared to the so called unverifible proof that he was Jesse, people would figure it out. Look at how many times court cases were lost concerning Dalton. Turrilli died owing $10,000 from when he was proved wrong in court. I'd love for the believers of Dalton to make another $10,000 prove me wrong offer again.

Hoss I'm not giving Jay a hard time about tunnels under Brownwood. I'm sure they are there. I'm just pointing out that his proof of them being KGC, ie Houks book, comes from a fake and a fraud. To prove they were KGC I would go the route of finding a local KGC Castle, gathering the names of known KGC members that lived in the area, look at local history and see if there was an increased immigrant population for a period of time, search town archives, ask city & utility workers if they have uncovered any tunnels and where they were, etc. One of the tunnels I know of was found when the city worker drove a backhoe through an alley and part of the tunnel collapsed. Doesn't that seem more logical than using words out of a book of a known thief and conman?

 

[lastleg]

Big Hoss:

I am positive that you are sincere in believing the tree is a KGC marker.
Hope you will consider this. CC posted a 1860's newspaper that quoted a
high ranking KGC commander giving orders to members. One of the
orders was "If duty calls you from home, BUILD UP MONUMENTS of our
Order in your pathway".
Not having seen the tree I can't comment on it's age or significance but
the above quote lifted the veil for me in understanding how so many signs
and inscriptions could have been made.
Just because you find unusual 1860's era tree markings or stone monu-
ments or initials of CW era luminaries does not equate to depositories. Only
way to know and prove is to take many photos of the immediate area, then
begin the excavation. When you hit a cache stop and photograph from the
same spot you previously took shots so that camparison photos will match.
Then, after giving appropriate thanks, decide how much of the cache you are
willing to divulge to members of TN. If there are au items pick one or more
and photo close ups. Submit to this thread AFTER reburrying what you did
not submit. Leave it lay for at least one year.
After you have silenced the naysayers enjoy your discovery and look for
more. Good luck.

lastleg

 

[alec]

Hoss,

I think the point here is that the true believers in the KGC myths (including yourself) are quick to say that this or that is KGC. Jay has KGC tunnels and you have KGC sites and apparently a vault and you apparently beleive the "bible tree" carving is KGC. Just what makes any of it KGC? That's the big question. If you want to call something KGC then that's great but there is no proof unless you have documents that can be tied directly to the KGC that indicates what you have found is KGC. Otherwise it's just a treasure trail, hole in the ground, carved tree, etc. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT THE KGC DID ANY OF THESE THINGS. It may be your opinion they did and that's great but it's not proof and I believe it was you that said something about not liking people posting their opinions as facts.

Jay leaps, with really big leaps, to conclusions about everything being KGC. If he wants to do that then that is fine but there are other people, ones just starting out, that get on these forums trying to learn and they should be aware of different points of views so that they can do their own research and draw their own conclusions instead of blindly believing what was written by a liar and con man and then repeated by some other writers over and over again.

Why the argument? I actually think it's a discussion but the reason, at least my reason, is to let others know there is a different side to the story and if you are serious about treasure hunting then you have to look at everything before coming up with a theory. I'm living proof of what happens when you blindly believe in something without doing your own research. You can waste years chasing something that you will never find. It's about learning and hopefully teaching. All of the clues left to things in the ground are slowly disappearing over time and soon, most of those clues will be gone. Treasure hunting is for dreamers (which I consider to be a good thing) and we need to help others with that so that these things left behind can be found. You may not believe it but I am here to help. That's why I post on Okie's blog, I enjoy it and I'm trying to help.

Why learn about JJ? It does make a difference just like Okie said, if you are taking the information written by someone as the truth then knowing where that truth came from is important. Since all of the KGC treasure information came from Howk and Dalton then it is important to know who they were. When did JJ die? In a way, I agree with you, who cares? Unless you are using information derived from Dalton as JJ in your research, then it does matter. If you are just treasure hunting, interpreting the symbols and markers then for the most part you can do that without too much history involved. I don't recommend it but it can be done in certain instances.

I realize that you don't want to give up any information on your site(s) and I wouldn't expect you too, I wouldn't either, but unfortunately you have taken the same road as all of the other KGC believers in that you say you have the proof but don't see the need in sharing it or can't share it because it's secret or my favorite, because I should do my own research and see for myself. All you're doing is perpetuating, in my opinion, the fraud of the KGC. Maybe you do have something that is real and can prove your "vault" was made by the KGC but if you do, then you are the very first person ever to have it. If you don't want to share any information then all you can do is sit back and "lurk" like you said you normally do because to post what you have is giving your opinion because you can't or won't back it up with real information. It's my opinion that if you had a KGC site you could prove it without giving away the location or any other important information about the site. You choose not to do that, that's your choice but that also makes anything you say opinion and not fact. The very thing you hate to see on the forums.

I've done my research and I've made my conclusions and they aren't the same as yours. That doesn't make either one of us bad people. It just means we disagree. Hopefully by having these discussions anyone else interested in the subject will decide there's enough information on both sides to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

As for the so called Bible Tree, just because somebody carved symbols on the tree doesn't make it KGC. Brewer decided it was KGC so he could write a book about it. Nothing there, including the treasure can be proven as being tied to the KGC. That's just like the so called Wolf Map, that sure ain't KGC but Brewer has decided it is so the believers jump on the band wagon. The only thing you have concerning KGC treasures is your opinion because there is no credible evidence that the KGC put down any big treasures or left behind any maps or vaults or templates, etc. Given that there is no credible evidence that the KGC vaults or treasures ever existed then what are you left with? Opinion, pure and simple.

 

[Hoss KGC]

Alec, Okie,
I hear what you guys say and can understand your disbelief in the KGC. Let me ask you something else. I have seen trees with similar carvings across 5 states personally. Obviously I've seen pictures other people have taken from one end of the US to Canada with the same carvings/symbols. How did this happen? If you claim it outlaw, how did they all use the same symbols? How did outlaws all know about and utilze the same symbols. I don't believe that it was common knowledge. Most people today don't know about them or how to interpret them. A large, highly coordinated group utilizing the same formulas makes sense to me but not individual outlaws.
Thanks,
Big Hoss (I just love this name, thanks SWR)

 

[okietreasurehunter]

I know a guy who served in Korea with Dan (Hoss). He said he was a really good guy.

 

[alec]

Hoss,

If they are the EXACT same symbols then this might be considered to be a conserted effort by a group but there are only so many symbols you can use and since the majority of carved symbols are topographical in nature you are going to have repeat symbols but they won't be exactly the same. A "J" one place may be one thing and it could be something else at another place based on the terrain, how the J is carved, if the lines are connected, if there is any hollowing out of one of the lines, if one or both of the lines are tilted or if one side is longer than the other and on and on and on. A symbol being repeated doesn't mean it's the same symbol or has the same meaning. It's all in the details.

I would think that if you had a group leaving the exact same symbols in several areas, especially several states then those symbols would not be topographical and would be a code or cypher which would mean there is a key to the code/cipher and once you have the code then all of the carvings could be deciphered (not interpreted).

If you take the KGC out of the equation, just for the moment, and just look at outlaw treasures then you could answer your own question. Lots of different outlaws and outlaw groups stole money and put it in the ground. For the most part they all made maps, either some type of carving or series of markers or a carry around type map. It would be a good assumption that not all of these outlaws knew each other or went to some treasure hiding school but they all used the same style of symbols, topographical. Why is that? Beacuse they were drawing themselves a picture of how to get back to what they left. Just like the modern day road signs. No words, just pictures, go straight, turn left, curve ahead, uphill, downhill, water. etc.

This means that if somebody left a carving behind about a treasure it would be in this "style". It's not a code or cipher in the true definition but it is made so that the maker could interpret the symbols to take them back to the hole. Again, there are only so many symbols you can use before you get into things that even the makers of the symbols couldn't interpret because they couldn't remember how. If they are putting down 10s or 100s of treasures then there would have to be a way to decipher the code. If they weren't deciphering then they were interpreting and that means you can't have things like anagrams and the like because there are too many things to remember to be able to interpret the symbols. Multiply what you have to remember by the number of sites and that means the information has to be written down somewhere, in which case it would have been found by now because a group would have had to have had more than one copy, or it doesn't work that way. The carvings are either symbols of what to do and what to look for or they are an elaborate code/cipher. In some cases you can have a mix of both but I have found that to be rare.

If it's a code/cipher there has to be a key. If there is no key then it isn't anything except symbols to be interpreted and not deciphered.

 

[Walker Colt]

Just reading through these posts is interesting. I am more into KGC research and am in no way an expert in Jesse James but I broke out my Shadow of the Sentinel and compared the young Jesse pic to the J Frank Dalton pic. You don't have to be an expert in biometrics to see that these two men's ears are night and day different.

 

[lastleg]

Big Hoss it's me again. Since you wouldn't respond last time let me lay this on
you. That tree if you look closely doesn't look carved, it looks like somebody in
the last ten years highlighted the natural bark circles with a knife. Besides that
it sure doesn't look old enough for the KGC time period. In other words those
marks are grafitti.

 

[Hoss KGC]

:::chortles::: You added the 'Big' portion all by yourself...Hoss

You would understand if you seen my belly lately

 

[Hoss KGC]

Big Hoss it's me again. Since you wouldn't respond last time let me lay this on
you. That tree if you look closely doesn't look carved, it looks like somebody in
the last ten years highlighted the natural bark circles with a knife. Besides that
it sure doesn't look old enough for the KGC time period. In other words those
marks are grafitti.

Yeah you're right, the KGC probably never even existed...